GearHeadFTW 0 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 (edited) Removed Edited February 1, 2008 by GearHeadFTW Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I am over from "Gabe's House"- he and i bump back and forth over the application of shotguns... and enjoy the discourse (I think)- LOL!! However- as i noted over there- i think that the AK and the S-12 do indeed load the same. Mike- when you write about it you make the "Press the top round down against the bolt" sound like a whole nuther event. In my experience with the gun (admittedly- I ASSUME- less than yours) the only time that pressing the top round down against the bolt needs to be a separate event is when i am running a 10rd mag filled with 3in shells... then it is a MUST or is better served by NOT running 10x3in shells.... When I load a 5rd mag in my S-12- or a 10rd with 2 3/4in- it comes up just about exactly like Gabe's reload on the video except i don't turn my weapon all the way sideways. It naturally locks the front lug in with no added effort of pressing down the top round. If there is no visible, physical evidence of the top round being pressed down as a stand alone event to reloading then how can it be a second (or as you call it a first) step?? I just don't understand. It is a "rock and lock" action not a press, rock, lock. Rhett Rhett, Welcome aboard. If you want to learn about saigas, THIS is the place. Your post greatly favors and supports what I am saying here if you haven't realized it, thanks. Let me explain. Basically the whole dispute here is on the saiga-12 is loaded the same as an ak rifle. No matter what shells I put in my AK rifle mags the same technique loads them all just the same. I feel having one technique rather than two is best as well but that one technique doesn't work with the saiga-12 and ak rifle. You state perfectly clear in your post that you can in fact load the short 2 3/4 rounds ALMOST identical to the ak rifle and you are correct. But, just like you said... you will come up "empty" if you try this AK rifle technique with 3inch shells in your 12ga. mag. So by Gabe "trying" to be universal... he is actually practicing and preaching a technique that is lacking. The saiga-12 is not an ak rifle. My suggestion is treat it as it's own weapon and become proficient with a technique that will load ALL mags in the saiga-12. Even with the rock and lock with 2 3/4 rounds... If you are off just a little you will fumble the load. If you practice loading with 3 inch rds in you mag you will have no problem going to 2 3/4 rds and be proficient with the saiga-12. If you stick to the "load it like an ak" you will be lacking in saiga-12 proficiency. What if the extra saiga-12 mag you pick up on the street has 3 inch rds in it . I'm going to be done with this thread, I'm too busy as it is NOT debating this. Also I don't want the rest of the "biskitz" rushing over from WarriorTalk to tell me to leave Gabe alone. The best advice I can give is keep an open but skeptical mind on everything you hear from anybody, until you can draw your own conclusion. That goes for what I say, what Gabe says, ........, .......! Be your own person and remember nobody knows it all and is right about everything. Most importantly... practice the techniques that work best for you and remember that it might not be best for everyone. Again, welcome aboard... and you too Biskitz ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
biskitz 24 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 I'm going to be done with this thread, I'm too busy as it is NOT debating this. Also I don't want the rest of the "biskitz" rushing over from WarriorTalk to tell me to leave Gabe alone. .......... Again, welcome aboard... and you too Biskitz ! Thank you for the welcome MD, and for the record I have never been to WarriorTalk and don't know "Gabe" from anyone else. Well, I've tried to peek in there but can't without registering. Just an Indiana farm boy with too much opinion. ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shootist 3 Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Thanks guys...no offense was ever taken. I look forward to exchange info with you. I admit to not having all the answers, but it sure is fun looking for them. Gabe Suarez http://www.suarezinternational.com http://www.onesourcetactical.com info@suarezinternational.com Office 928-776-4492 Spaniard by Heritage Cuban by Birth Christian by Grace American by Choice Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Thanks guys...no offense was ever taken. I look forward to exchange info with you. I admit to not having all the answers, but it sure is fun looking for them. Gabe Suarez http://www.suarezinternational.com http://www.onesourcetactical.com info@suarezinternational.com Office 928-776-4492 Spaniard by Heritage Cuban by Birth Christian by Grace American by Choice Fun indeed!! I meant what I said Gabe. If your guy doesn't deliver a magwell mag with your magwell let me know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 For the record I am on WarriorTalk! Gabe could be a good beta tester for you Mike. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted February 1, 2008 Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Yay! Group hug! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gaddis 1,689 Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Yay! Group hug! Who farted? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 I am sorry, guys, but disagreeing with Gabe is akin to saying a duck is a chicken, as I like to say. If you want to consult an EXPERT, there he is. Pretty much anything this man says, you can take as fact. I looked in on who and what Gabe is a while ago, actually, and what he has been doing over the past years, and I have not often seen a firearms instructor/tactical trainer with more experience or knowledge of all aspects, including a rare combination of PRACTICAL knowledge, and sheer technical experitse. I am not saying that Mr. Suarez has any need for me saying this to you all, but I am suggesting that this man has a great deal more knowledge about firearms and thier use, than most people. Mr Suarez is an extraordinary asset to this forum, as well as the gun community as a whole. His insights on GUN FIGHTING, (NOT COMPETITION SPORTING), are INVALUABLE to all of us. Lets try not to forget that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmorgan 2 Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shootist 3 Posted February 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Hey guys....I am but an advanced student. I do have some definte ideas and opinions, but I think we all learn together. Besides...even though many gun gurus would disagree, the only time any of us walks on water is when its frozen. Gabe Suarez http://www.suarezinternational.com http://www.onesourcetactical.com info@suarezinternational.com Office 928-776-4492 Spaniard by Heritage Cuban by Birth Christian by Grace American by Choice Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmorgan 2 Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 (edited) ...ya know what? this guy is "alright"..... ...but this s12 thing....well.....Ill take mine to my grave with me..... Edited February 2, 2008 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 (edited) Now as for being careful about "disagreeing" with Gabes or anyone else's opinion for that matter on ANY subject matter posted here…well when the hell did that start, if I think someone is wrong or I have a different point of view I'll politely and professionally post that disagreement or opinion no matter who it is and POLITLY invite them to prove me wrong if that is the case and they are so inclined (a spirited and lively discussion is informative and fun ). sorry. In my mind everybody has something to contribute and LEARN from everybody else here, it's one of the things that makes this forum such a great place to discuss and learn new things about the Saiga's, when we start letting one or just a few posters become the "VOICE" of this forum it's time to turn off the lights and lock the door. ...exactly......that about sums it up. ....but I'd still defer to Gabe, over 99% of the shooters out there, hands down, sight unseen.....That is all that I am trying to say.... I dont believe the 2nd amendmant was put to shoot tastey food with, and I have a shitload of hands on experience, so I am just saying that Gabe demonstrates his practical knowledge, along with his experitse. In a shell, that is. ...Just the same as Id ask Tony Rumore what alloy to put in the welder, for this whatever, Id ask Gabe what to hold in hand and load up,godforbid the time comes that I must take up arms against my fellow men..... I have been following your forum's interaction with our's here closely, and happily. "have at it". we all here at the saiga forums welcome you all, in a big way. Its about time. Edited February 3, 2008 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 3, 2008 Report Share Posted February 3, 2008 I am glad to see gabe here, I admire his practicality. But I don't even agree with myself every time. So with Gabe here we can argue with the best of them! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted February 4, 2008 Report Share Posted February 4, 2008 Honestly, if most of us believed everything we read without question, we'd all be using Remchester shotguns as the worlds fastest & most reliable shotgun platforms.... Oh and we'd all be shooting AR-15s and 1911s too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 If you want to be able to pick up dead-guy AKs on the fly, don't train with a magwell. To be fair, you are no more likely to find a dead-guy with a Saiga-12 than you are to find a dead guy with a Chinese Type 84 (okay--slightly more likely) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 While magwells sound nice, I have some questions about them: 1. What is their availability for US? 2. Do magwell shotguns need special magazines or can they use standard S-12 mags? 3. Does the S-12 need to be permanently modified to use a magwell? 4. Can the magwell adapter be removed like the Galil adapter for M-16 magazines? 5. What happens when the magwell adapter falls out of your shotgun? What do you do to get back into the fight? Maybe Mike Davidson can answer my questions. In the meantime since I don't have a magwell, I'll have to learn to load the S-12 with the bolt closed. It's nice to have a firearm expert like Gabe Suarez on our forum and to learn from his skills and experience. Welcome to our forum. I'm going to learn Gabe's method of loading the magazine with the bolt closed, (something I haven't been able to do so far). Gabe is right, we need to be proficient in the arms we use and be able to switch from AK to S-12 without training. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted February 6, 2008 Report Share Posted February 6, 2008 The first day I had my S-12 I loaded 2 3/4" and 3" shells on the closed bolt. I can do it with my 10rd mags too.... It's No where as easy as an AK mag. The idea behind the load is the same but you can rock & lock the ak mags from any angle as long as you get that front notch in. To do this with the s-12 would be impossible. You HAVE to come in at a relatively shallow angle and allow the bolt to push the shells down as you bring the front catch closer to the locking point. Once you get the front in, the back rocks in easy.... It's both the SAME and not the same as an AK. It is the same action (Front lip, rock to back.) But the angle of approach is different. I can take my x39 mags and rock 80 degrees (maybe it's 70, or 50 but it's alot), from front where I catch to the back where it locks, and the mag will seat properly. On the S-12 you have to use a shorter rock approach in order to allow the bolt to press the shells down while you catch the front lip. But they are both Rock & Lock actions. So yes, Gabe, you can use the same action of Rock&Lock for the AK and S12... the initial approach is slightly different unless you load all your AK mags from a shallow angle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldandslow 3 Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 (edited) I just purchased new AGP 10 round Saiga-12 Magazines. 3 new magzines to go with my 4 old magazines. Reviewing Gabe's reloading technique prompted me to "kick it up a notch" (to borrow a phrase from Emeril) in my reloading practice. Gabe was doing hundreds of practice magazine insertions, I had been doing dozens. Naturally, I practice using my "new" magazines. After a couple of dozen reloads, I'm thinking, wow, practice is working, I've never been able to load so easily. Then I pick up one of my old magazines and load it up with ten rounds and try it out. Whoa... The old one is really hard in comparison. I notice that the 10th shell has an extra "almost half a shell width" slack with the new mags. This leads me to take my old and new magazines apart. I notice that the new followers are shorter and the spring base towers are shorter. Then I notice that there is an almost.. Naw, I'm just old and can't see small print on a black surface. With my glasses on, there it is: "GEN 2" Being a cheapskate, I decide to copy the cuts on my old followers and spring bases. Of the 4 old magazines that I convert, only 1 conversion gives me the extra space. (Maybe because the wall thickness of the old followers are thicker?) Anyway, the good news is that AGP offers a "Gen 2" upgrade kit. The bad news (what else am I going to say) is they are $10. AGPARMS After entering this "story", I realized Gabe may not care for 10 round magazines. However, with Tromix's base plates, you could cut your 10 rounders down to what ever is acceptable and have the benefit of...or just down load one round. Edited February 7, 2008 by oldandslow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted February 7, 2008 Report Share Posted February 7, 2008 (edited) Last night I tried Gabe's loading technique and it worked for the five rounder magazine but not for the ten rounder. I'm going to file down the front magazine catch on the ten rounder to match the five rounder's contours so it can also be loaded using Gabe's method. Gabe's method is faster than locking the bolt open to load and that time difference may mean staying alive in a fire fight. Edited February 7, 2008 by uzitiger Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stiletto raggio 20 Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 (edited) You know what I think is funny, albeit in a horribly unsettling way? The US military--the most formidable fighting force ever assembled--absolutely refuses to accept that magazine fed shotguns are a viable and a necessary improvement. I understand it is a specialty weapon, but really, can't we get something better than a five shot Mossberg pump with a bead sight? And for those who are lucky enough to get a new gun, what do we get? A Benelli that holds five or six shots and costs hundreds of dollars more than an honest-to-goodness Russian Saiga! Then again, the official US Army pistol manual explains that the "Weaver position" means "weaving your thumbs together." Awesome. The Army will spend $2000 on an infrared pistol sight that nobody uses but won't buy decent shotguns at half the price. The pistol manual is flat out wrong, but I don't see the bureaucrats letting the shooting experts (of which there are plenty in the Army) write it correctly. The point is this: I hope Gabe is capable of bringing some new concepts to the masses. This is a specialty site, and as much as I am rapidly becoming a Saiga buff, I recognize that some of those in the mainstream need to recognize the advantages of the platform because those of us on the periphery don't have the name association or credentials to back up our observations, regardless of how valid they might be. Hell, even Jeff Cooper was heavily criticized when the Modern School was starting out. Conservative institutions need converts in their midst, not outsiders coming in, in order to change. Edited February 13, 2008 by stiletto raggio Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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