poor mans urban sniper

[kiwigunner 0]

I've been thinking about a poor mans 7.62x39 AK type urban sniper for some time now.

Please guys YES the 7.62 NATO and lots of others are MUCH BETTER for sniping than the 7.62x39 BUT this is not for 600-1000yd shots this is urban sniping say 300yds.

 

Why the 7.62x39? it is CHEAP, you can shoot all day long with wolf for practice and have some special ammo put aside so as to not brake the bank. It is also heavy enough to punch through stuff at 200yds as well as you can head shoot say 8" at 150yds and body shoot 300-400yds maximum effective range for those zombie or martian invaders.

 

The rifle I thinking of would be the 20" Saiga, 20" Vepr or even the SKS, why? well its not for gunfighting and blasting thru 30 rounds as quick as you can the spray and pray method its for steady selected semi-auto fire, this was used during the Bosina civil wars, the rifle often used was a Yugoslavia M59/66 SKS with a 2.5 or 6 power scope, over in the sandbox they use the 7.62x39 Tabuk which is a semi-auto AK with a 21" barrel & scope with 10,15,20 round mags for prone shooting. I guess the 7.62x39 in AK/SKS form is not a true sniper rifle but a designated marksman rifle which for me would be good for the urban sniper to take out those zombies.

 

There are better rifles out there also but I'm confining it to a semi-auto for the fast follow up correction shots, cheap rifle cost, cheap ammo to practice, practice & practice to get to know your weapon and what it can do, and the 20" barrel will give you a bit more oomph for the 7.62x39.

 

Has any of you shot your 20" Saiga or 20" Vepr to see what they can do???

Your thoughts may be different.

[jamesavery22 54]

Isn't 200 yards right at the outer limit of a x39 round?

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=21175

[kiwigunner 0]

No the maximum effective range of the 7.62x39 is 400yds

example if you sight in at 0" for 25yds, at 100yds its +3.27", at 200yds its +0.02" & at 250yds its -5.52"

Edited February 1, 2008 by kiwigunner

[MD_Willington 11]

Tabuk anyone?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabuk_(firearm)

 

http://www.dragunov.net/iraq_tabuk.htm

[russiangunrunner 10]

good luck with hitting much with cheap ammo after 150 yards.....after that it's really just cover fire unless you is GOOD, and I mean GOOD........great for under 100 yards.... in fact perfect.

[Vultite 57]

only as accurate as the person shooting it, plenty of dead people can attest to that..

[SOPMOD 254]

PSO with 7.62x39 reticle has bullet drop compensation to 400M and if you used some decent ammo that duplicated the Russian mlitary ammo ballistically you could be a real headache for zombies at 300M for sure.

 

I'd probably go with something heavy barreled like a Vepr or an RPK for that kind of project or just stick an RPK barrel in your 7.62x39 Saiga.

 

The US made Yugo RPK barrels look like they might be right on the money but I don't know if the trunion diameter is correct though but you could have it turned down at the chamber cheaply enough.

 

Or you could just buy a Saiga 308 or a Vepr and start tuning it and leave your x39 gun for intermediate range blasting

[kiwigunner 0]

Vladimir are you talking 7.62x39 ammo or the rifle?

Down here in NZ the 7.62x39 boys have had good results using hand loads from a stock bolt action CZ 527 with many one hole touching 3 shot groups at 100yds, yes I know it was a bolt action but I use this example to show what you can do with the ammo, hand load or find the best comerical load to suit your rifle.

 

Sopmod I believe the Vepr is based on the RPK and that Robinson Arms posted good accuarcy results of a 20" Vepr on there website in 7.62x39.

Yes I know that a 308 is a bloody sight better for a sniper rifle BUT this is a poor mans urban sniper type rifle to be used out to say 300yds, and unfortunately its being used effectively in the sandpit.

 

From what I understand most of the marine snipers over there dont shoot more than 300yds in that urban enviroment these days.

 

I am wondering if any of you guys have the 20" saigas/veprs or sks and tested them against the 16" ones? and what your thoughts are.

[Motopilot1 37]

if you want a really poor mans sniper get a mosin 91/30

[SaigaNoobie 66]

What I meant by my post linked by James was that at 300yrds you'd have to click up so many times on a 1/4" MOA scope that it'd be ridiculous. I'd be very wary of shooting anything (meaning GAME *deer etc.) at 300yrds. BUT that's only because you want to take them cleanly. When shooting Zombies, you don't care about clean shots, only dead zombies.

 

If you practice the 200 to 300yrd shots often enough, have a mil-dot reticle or bullet drop comp reticle... then yes, 300yrds is within the reach of an x39. you could hit a 6-9" circle at that distance easy. BUT if this is something you're toying with, get a mildot reticle so you can zero it at 200, use two or 3 mils up as your 100yrd aim point, the xhair as your 200yrd aimpoint and 300yrds as your 6 or 7 mils low aimpoint. Standard crosshairs are not ideal for engaging targets at multiple distances. Better to get a mildot reticle.

 

 

Just one noobs opinion.

[RedFalconBill 0]

The QC on the cheap ammo sucks a**. Good luck on getting anything more then fair/poor accuracy.

 

Handload, use 25.0gr to 26.0gr of AA-1680, the 123gr Hornady or the 125gr Sierra, zero your 20" AK at 30-31 yards and this will get your +/- 2" to 200 yards.

[devildog1122 0]

For those people that say 7.62x39 won't hit anything or accurate at 300-400 yards, I would tell them to run out to that distance and let me take a shot at him. I'll bet he won't live to tell about it. Accuracy depends greatly on the shooter and how much he knows about ballistic and his rifle.

[patriot 7,197]

Urban Sniper? What will be your AO? When will you be conducting operations? Is this a sanctioned op?

[BullShark012 1]

A good 'rough' rule of thumb on 7.62x39 ammo...(always verify w/ your ammo & gun) Zero at about 20 yds. :

 

100 yds = +~ 3.5"

200 yds = 0

300 yds = -~ 14"

400 yds = -~ 44"

500 yds = -~ 95"

 

Energy would still so some serious human damage at 500, but I wouldn't try 'game' hunting past 150 personally w/ my 7.62 Saiga (just me, I'm sure some of you are more confident out to 200 or so w/ yours)

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Well I had some mixed experiences this weekend at the range...

 

I was at the local 565Yrd range. And I set up targets at 100 and 200yrds.

 

First shot was dead center 1" low. Second shot wandered a little left, then a little right.... shot a 10shot group in the top right corner (aimed there) of target. One at the left middle. Then one at the center. 3" group, 2"group 1.5" group.... in that order... Is it common for an AK to get more accurate as the barrel heats up?

 

Anyway, so I shot at the 200yrd target. First shot, 8" low at 200. (expected that). Next shot wandered left, then right. they were all on the target but not very good grouping... So I got frustrated.

 

I looked down at the end of the range... there was a swinging target with a 6-8" circle plate on top and a 12" circle on the bottom. I decided "What the hell"

 

I knew it was close to 600yrds so I aimed 5' high.... 9x scope lets me see that far... barely

 

Shoot.... dirt spray.. a little low, aim higher. Shoot.... dirt spray near target.... hrm....

 

 

So I continued plinking at the 6" circle shot after shot. 1' left, 6" low, 3" right as I adjusted the point on the backdrop mound that I aimed the crosshairs at. Eventually I had it dead on the 6"... but I couldn't hit it... I mean I shoot at the same spot and it'd miss 2" right or 2" left or a little high or a little low.... Good but not on target... so I adjusted and shot at the 12" circle..... miss, miss, miss HIT!!!! OMFG my ak hit the damn target at 565yrds.... Next shot HIT!... HIT! .... Miss... Miss.... HIT! .... miss.

 

10rds and I hit the plate 4 times.... well, since MY accuracy at 200 had been iffy I figured I'd plink out long range... the gun was fine, I must have been screwing it up at 200yrds.

 

So I took the scope off to test out the iron sights....

 

I noticed that the irons had 100, 200, 300 but nothing more.... drat.

 

well I just put the sights 3 notches above the 300yrd aim... So now it should be dead on at 600. Well it wasn't DEAD on but I only had to aim about 1' high at 565 to get the right height. My friend was sitting at the spotting scope next to me as I shot at the larger white circle. I hit it 2 out of 10. Not great but the misses were a little left, a little right a little high a little low..... we proceeded to do the same with my Mosin. It was some of the most fun I had had with my guns ever.

 

Anyway. That's my story for the weekend.

[bullseyeboy 11]

Wow that does sound like fun! Now I really can't wait to get my new Saiga, (it was supposed to be in last Friday) I only have 100 yards to play with right now though.

[dobravery 49]

VEPR- Best bet, but lately I've just seen it in 5.56 here in the US. May have to look at auctions.

 

SKS- Many SKS' need trigger work to improve accuracy. Mounting a solid scope might be tricky. If your scope is too large, the spent casings may hit it, thus requiring a deflector.

 

RPK- Although many accurate AK's use RPK recievers (VEPR), I don't think RPK's themselves are any more accuate than a standard AK. I think they're built more for sustained fire.

 

Mini-30- I'm not so familiar with its accuracy, but it is semi auto in 7.62x39

 

AR with 7.62 Upper reciever- It's an option, but I hear decent 7.62x39 mags are not easy to find.

 

Norinco Hunter- I liked mine and felt it was accurate, but some people don't. Flip sight has only 2 settings. Stock is not standard AK either. 20" barrel though. May have to add a scope mount plate.

 

Misc 20" AK's- As you mentioned the Iraqi one. I've seen Egyptian 20" barreled AK's here in the US. No idea about their accuracy or build.

 

Saiga- Well. . . .

 

 

If you can find a VEPR in 7.62x39, I'd say that's the way to go. Go Saiga if money is a concern. I think if you experiment with ammo and replace the trigger to something sharp, you'll get the setup you want.

Edited February 8, 2008 by dobravery

[Kymasabe 1]

Mine was quite accurate out to 200 yards with good brass-cased ammo, like Winchester or something decent. Wolf was horrible in my gun, Golden Tiger was better, Barnaul Brown Bear was actually pretty good but for accuracy, I needed to spend some $$ for decent ammo. Here's a pic at not-quite-done. I later added the Galil handguard and a Harris bipod, was a great gun.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i206/Kymasabe/Saiga.jpg

[patriot 7,197]

Urban Sniper? What will be your AO? When will you be conducting operations? Is this a sanctioned op?

 

Must be an unsanctioned op. May I at least inquire as to the approximate location of your intended target(s)?

[Bravo 26 2]

SKS with Tech-Sights, proper USGI sling, good clean ammo and a good wooden stock will absolutely smoke man sized targets aout to 300yds all day long. We have a 20" steel plate at our range at the 200yd line, and me and my father regularly bang the hell out of it with my sks. lots of fun.

 

Just do your part:

 

trigger control, breathing, proper use of the sling, natural point of aim, follow thru and call your shot.

[Threecard 15]

SKS with Tech-Sights, proper USGI sling, good clean ammo and a good wooden stock will absolutely smoke man sized targets aout to 300yds all day long. We have a 20" steel plate at our range at the 200yd line, and me and my father regularly bang the hell out of it with my sks. lots of fun.

 

Just do your part:

 

trigger control, breathing, proper use of the sling, natural point of aim, follow thru and call your shot.

 

What's a "natural point of aim"? I've never heard the term

[streetfrog1 0]

Here is your perfect zombie killing urban sniper scope for your 7.62x.39

 

http://www.m1surplus.com/scope%20lpscp395aomdlts.htm

 

It is the one you want and it is short $ also. I have one and it is perfect for what you want

[loki0629 55]

What's a "natural point of aim"? I've never heard the term

Obtaining a correct sight picture without muscling the sights into place.

 

This is easiest in the prone position and a loop sling (hasty can work also). To test it, get your sight picture, breath in, close your eye, breath out. As you reach your natural pause in your breathing, open your eye.

 

If your sight picture hasn't moved at all you have a natural point of aim.

Edited March 14, 2008 by GunnyR

[kiwigunner 0]

Bravo 26, thats good shooting with the SKS, it backs up all I've read about them being used in the Bosian wars for urban sniping therefore a good well built 20" AK should perform equally as well out to 300yds.

 

Streetfrog that looks like a good cost effective scope do you use it on a 7.62x39 and how's it holding up to semi-auto fire.

[kiwigunner 0]

Patriot, WTF? I thought I made it clear in my first post that the poor mans urban sniper could be used if you found yourself in a urban enviroment during a zombie or martian invasion of your city therebuy protecting life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.