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Anyone in NY with an S12?


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I'm thinking about getting an S12 in the near future, and I live in NY, so I don't wanna get into the whole "Is it legal to convert an S12 in NY" mess. But if I did make the purchase, I'd be interested in "higher" capacity mags for it. So what's the scoop on 10 round mags in NY state for shotties? OK or no-go?

 

After reading the NYS AWB info.........

 

28 ( A SEMIAUTOMATIC SHOTGUN THAT HAS AT LEAST TWO OF THE FOLLOWING

29 CHARACTERISTICS:

30 (I) A FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK;

31 (II) A PISTOL GRIP THAT PROTRUDES CONSPICUOUSLY BENEATH THE ACTION OF

32 THE WEAPON;

33 (III) A FIXED MAGAZINE CAPACITY IN EXCESS OF FIVE ROUNDS;

34 (IV) AN ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE; OR

 

......I'm still a little confused. OK, being that I will not convert it while living in NY: No folding/telescoping stock, no pistol grip. So The only feature I would have, would be a detachable mag. Now it doesn't say anything about how many rounds said mag can hold, so is there anything else in NY's AWB that says I can't have a 10 round mag?

 

I've gotten pretty familiar with my x39 Saiga and NY laws regarding it, but I'm still pretty clueless about S12's and what NY laws think of them.

Edited by 22_Shooter
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ask your Sheriff.

 

He will say its not OK, as will a DA.

 

Then show them the law, and ask them to point out "which one" says it.

 

They will then say they might be wrong, but still prosucute you and win.

 

....a funny thing about grey areas, is that they work both ways......

 

.but the mags SHOULD be ok......

 

its the conversion that you DEFIANTELY cant do on the saiga shotguns, in NYS.....I never followed up on the mag situation. I left it at five, but I left that five round thing at a NY level.

Edited by Bvamp
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As far as I know you can have them but you just can't use them. Unless you have the proper parts count. Which to have the proper parts count you would probably have to do the conversion, which now makes your gun illegal in NY. I do believe if you can find enough USA parts and not do the pistol grip conversion, you should be fine with ten round mags. Example would be getting USA made -> stock, Friend, stock trigger assy, not the conversion one, I guess the puke Tromix sells, maybe some kind of screw on end piece like the shark brake. What ever gets your parts count below 10.

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I'm thinking about getting an S12 in the near future, and I live in NY, so I don't wanna get into the whole "Is it legal to convert an S12 in NY" mess. But if I did make the purchase, I'd be interested in "higher" capacity mags for it. So what's the scoop on 10 round mags in NY state for shotties? OK or no-go?

 

After reading the NYS AWB info.........

 

28 ( A SEMIAUTOMATIC SHOTGUN THAT HAS AT LEAST TWO OF THE FOLLOWING

29 CHARACTERISTICS:

30 (I) A FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK;

31 (II) A PISTOL GRIP THAT PROTRUDES CONSPICUOUSLY BENEATH THE ACTION OF

32 THE WEAPON;

33 (III) A FIXED MAGAZINE CAPACITY IN EXCESS OF FIVE ROUNDS;

34 (IV) AN ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE; OR

 

......I'm still a little confused. OK, being that I will not convert it while living in NY: No folding/telescoping stock, no pistol grip. So The only feature I would have, would be a detachable mag. Now it doesn't say anything about how many rounds said mag can hold, so is there anything else in NY's AWB that says I can't have a 10 round mag?

 

I've gotten pretty familiar with my x39 Saiga and NY laws regarding it, but I'm still pretty clueless about S12's and what NY laws think of them.

 

I live in NY and have a Saiga-12, and 10rd mags are fine, under the AWB all mags need to be 10rd or less (unless its pre-ban) You can't convert it so it has a pistol grip, but what I did was replace the original stock with an RAA skeleton stock... thumbhole / skeleton stocks aren't considered pistol grips so they're a cheap way to get by those restrictions.

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ask your Sheriff.

 

He will say its not OK, as will a DA.

 

Then show them the law, and ask them to point out "which one" says it.

 

They will then say they might be wrong, but still prosucute you and win.

 

....a funny thing about grey areas, is that they work both ways......

 

.but the mags SHOULD be ok......

 

its the conversion that you DEFIANTELY cant do on the saiga shotguns, in NYS.....I never followed up on the mag situation. I left it at five, but I left that five round thing at a NY level.

 

Man, I hate NY. I hate grey areas even more. How messed up is it that even people who are willing to jump through hoops to be legal are still left in a bind because the government can't make things clear? :rolleyes:

 

As far as I know you can have them but you just can't use them. Unless you have the proper parts count. Which to have the proper parts count you would probably have to do the conversion, which now makes your gun illegal in NY. I do believe if you can find enough USA parts and not do the pistol grip conversion, you should be fine with ten round mags. Example would be getting USA made -> stock, Friend, stock trigger assy, not the conversion one, I guess the puke Tromix sells, maybe some kind of screw on end piece like the shark brake. What ever gets your parts count below 10.

 

So a Saiga not threaded for chokes needs to have 3 foreign parts replaced, which would be the US made mag, right? So I should be kosher because the only 10 round mags are US made, correct? Also, do the S12's come threaded for chokes, or is that something you have to have done. I'm not up to speed on S12 info, actually, I don't know shit about shotguns in general :rolleyes: .

 

 

I'm thinking about getting an S12 in the near future, and I live in NY, so I don't wanna get into the whole "Is it legal to convert an S12 in NY" mess. But if I did make the purchase, I'd be interested in "higher" capacity mags for it. So what's the scoop on 10 round mags in NY state for shotties? OK or no-go?

 

After reading the NYS AWB info.........

 

28 ( A SEMIAUTOMATIC SHOTGUN THAT HAS AT LEAST TWO OF THE FOLLOWING

29 CHARACTERISTICS:

30 (I) A FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK;

31 (II) A PISTOL GRIP THAT PROTRUDES CONSPICUOUSLY BENEATH THE ACTION OF

32 THE WEAPON;

33 (III) A FIXED MAGAZINE CAPACITY IN EXCESS OF FIVE ROUNDS;

34 (IV) AN ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE; OR

 

......I'm still a little confused. OK, being that I will not convert it while living in NY: No folding/telescoping stock, no pistol grip. So The only feature I would have, would be a detachable mag. Now it doesn't say anything about how many rounds said mag can hold, so is there anything else in NY's AWB that says I can't have a 10 round mag?

 

I've gotten pretty familiar with my x39 Saiga and NY laws regarding it, but I'm still pretty clueless about S12's and what NY laws think of them.

 

I live in NY and have a Saiga-12, and 10rd mags are fine, under the AWB all mags need to be 10rd or less (unless its pre-ban) You can't convert it so it has a pistol grip, but what I did was replace the original stock with an RAA skeleton stock... thumbhole / skeleton stocks aren't considered pistol grips so they're a cheap way to get by those restrictions.

 

I knew about the 10 round mags or less, unless they're pre-ban. But I thought it was different for shotguns. You brought up another thing I was wondering about, the thumbhole stocks. I'm not a fan of them, but I would rather have that, than the sporter stock. So you've confirmed that it's legit in NY? Come to think of it, I think IndyArms did the same thing, and he lives in NY.

 

 

 

Damn, all these questions make me feel like the noob I was when I joined this site looking for info on the x39's. :D

Edited by 22_Shooter
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I dont want to steer anyone in the wrong direction, but from my understanding as long as you have the right parts count for you gun its okay. Now people being from NY have the added problem of not getting the pistol grip and trigger assy as easy points. But like I said before, I'm not sure if you can get the factory trigger assy but made in usa.

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I live in NY and own a Saiga-12. The short version is that you cannot legally pistol-grip a Saiga-12 in NY.

 

However, it would be technically possible to skirt the law by using the exemption just below the AWB definitions:

 

(E) PROVIDED, HOWEVER, THAT SUCH TERM DOES NOT INCLUDE:

.

.

.

(III) A SEMIAUTOMATIC SHOTGUN THAT CANNOT HOLD MORE THAN FIVE ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION IN A FIXED OR DETACHABLE MAGAZINE;

 

If you welded a tab into the magwell, then keyed only 5 rounders to fit, the above exemption from "Assault Weapon" status would apply. Your gun would no longer be able to accept factory magazines, and thus would never be able to accept more than 5 rounds.

 

The other option would be to permanently convert the shotgun to bolt action by welding up the gas system.

 

Personally, I would not attempt either without a good lawyer and an official BATF letter OK'ing the permanent-ness of the above modifications.

 

 

The 10-round magazines are perfectly legal to own in NY, as the only limitation in the NY penal code on magazine capacity is the "LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE" (over 10 rounds) section. There is some confusion on whether or not it's legal to attach a 10-rounder to a Saiga in NY due to the wording of evil feature (III). It *should* be legal, and here's why:

 

(III) A FIXED MAGAZINE CAPACITY IN EXCESS OF FIVE ROUNDS - the key word here is "fixed". If you look at the listed "evil features", you will notice that they are all characteristics of a firearm. The Saiga shotgun firearm has no magazine. It has the ability to accept a detachable magazine. Detachable magazines are not part of the firearm, and are regulated separately by the "LARGE CAPACITY AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE" section.

 

The BATF sent someone here a letter during the Federal AWB saying that 5-10 round detachable magazines were OK to use in a Saiga so long as it complied with 922®. The NY law mirrors the Federal law word-for-word, so the BATF's (Federal) interpretation of (III) should trump that of NY state.

 

It should also be noted that the NY law was amended so that you must knowingly violate the provisions of the NY AWB to be charged with a violation. Following the letter of the law as defined by Federal precedent does not constitute knowingly violating the law.

 

The whole 10-round issue is somewhat moot since enforcement of these provisions is handled by NY police, not undercover BATF field agents. If you encounter a police officer in public while carrying a firearm (legal or not) expect it to be confiscated at the minimum. If you encounter a police officer with a loaded firearm, expect a trip to jail. A 10-rounder on an unconverted Saiga would be crazy-stupid long and awkward anyway.

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OK, so from the sounds of it, I can have a 10 round mag, eventhough it would bring the gun into 922r territory, but that doesn't really matter, because the mag would be 3 US parts, making it compliant, right? (Given that it the gun isn't threaded for chokes).

 

What does the fact that it's unconverted have to do with mag length? The fact that the mag will be the only thing sticking out of the bottom, without a pistol grip? If that's what you mean, then you bring up another point. Like I asked up above, does anyone know for sure that the thumbhole stock is legal for us NYers to use? Do the 12's come threaded for chokes?

 

According to that magazine letter from the BATF, the Saiga has 13 imported parts that count against you. 3 are in the magazine, so using a US mag brings you to 10 (legal). However, people get different numbers of imported parts when they do their own counts based on the BATF's list of named parts. The BATF considers shotgun chokes part of the barrel, so a threaded Saiga barrel and choke are still only 1 part (barrel)

 

The BATF used to say that thumbhole stocks were not pistol grips. However, they recently reversed their decision. Dragunov-style thumbhole stocks (enclosed pistol grips protruding below the action) are pistol grips. The NY law doesn't define "pistol grip", as it was based on the Federal law, which relied on the BATF to define those terms. I would not try to get away with it, as the BATF is now calling them pistol grips.

 

Yes, I do mean to say that it would be awkward using a 10-rounder on an unconverted Saiga. Your hand will be positioned ~6 inches higher, farther back, and you'll have a huge monopod swinging under your receiver. You can get Saigas in Cylinder Bore, external threaded, or fixed full choke.

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I too was under the impression that the RAA Skeleton stock counted as 2 foreign parts, the stock and the pistol grip. I assumed it was and went from there.

 

Without moving the fire control group I:

put a US made gas plug in, a US made hand grip, a US made Shark Break, and then the 3 parts that a US made mag counts for, which made 6 US parts and figured that it got me where it needed to be.

 

What would get you with my setup is the pistol grip on the RAA Skeleton stock, and the 10 rd mags possibly.

 

If you can only have 5 rd mags, is a Saiga really worth it? You can get a tube fed 12 gauge shotty that holds probably that many rounds at wally world for a couple of hundred bucks.

 

As far as being akward shooting unconverted with a 10 rd mag, you get used to it for the simple fact of a little bit of inconvenience is worth the extra firepower it gives you.

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I handed many guys' thier asses with my unconverted s12 with its petty little 5 round mags, due to the speed of the gun from its weight, and how it points with the monte carlo rifle buttstock setup. It was the baddest bugger in the neighborhood, and I would regularly be out in the rain and snow with it shooting skeet or tastey things that live in the woods, and just totally do things to the gun without a care in the world that you would NEVER do to any other gun, like bumpfiring 15 pellet crackhead killers at rabbits and such, or laying the gun in the snow or on the wet lawn, etc etc etc, then just leaning it in the corner while everyone else was whining and re-oiling thier remingtons, mossbergs, and benellis.

 

I guess that was a disadvantage, because I would get stuck frying backstrap in butter and garlic for everyone for lunch LOL.

 

...and I still havent converted it, since leaving NY. I dont think I will, either. Ill buy another one if I really want to convert it.

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According to that magazine letter from the BATF, the Saiga has 13 imported parts that count against you. 3 are in the magazine, so using a US mag brings you to 10 (legal). However, people get different numbers of imported parts when they do their own counts based on the BATF's list of named parts. The BATF considers shotgun chokes part of the barrel, so a threaded Saiga barrel and choke are still only 1 part (barrel)

 

The BATF considers a threaded Saiga barrel and choke 1 part? The parts counts page (click here), says a Saiga threaded for chokes = 14 parts, and not threaded for chokes = 13 parts. Either way, I need to know if they come threaded for chokes.

 

I too was under the impression that the RAA Skeleton stock counted as 2 foreign parts, the stock and the pistol grip. I assumed it was and went from there.

 

Without moving the fire control group I:

put a US made gas plug in, a US made hand grip, a US made Shark Break, and then the 3 parts that a US made mag counts for, which made 6 US parts and figured that it got me where it needed to be.

 

What would get you with my setup is the pistol grip on the RAA Skeleton stock, and the 10 rd mags possibly.

 

If you can only have 5 rd mags, is a Saiga really worth it? You can get a tube fed 12 gauge shotty that holds probably that many rounds at wally world for a couple of hundred bucks.

 

As far as being akward shooting unconverted with a 10 rd mag, you get used to it for the simple fact of a little bit of inconvenience is worth the extra firepower it gives you.

 

OK, the conversion is out, I don't wanna mess with grey area. The same goes for the RAA skeleton stock, don't wanna mess with that grey area either. But I definitely think it would still be worth it to get it, even though I can't convert it right now. I mean, I don't plan on living in NY forever, so I'd like to have an S12 for later conversion. Plus, these things are getting harder to come by, and going up in price and popularity, so I figure I better jump on one now if I ever want one. I'm thinking years down the road, two things could happen: 1) They are banned. 2) The price gets out of my reach.

 

I handed many guys' thier asses with my unconverted s12 with its petty little 5 round mags, due to the speed of the gun from its weight, and how it points with the monte carlo rifle buttstock setup. It was the baddest bugger in the neighborhood, and I would regularly be out in the rain and snow with it shooting skeet or tastey things that live in the woods, and just totally do things to the gun without a care in the world that you would NEVER do to any other gun, like bumpfiring 15 pellet crackhead killers at rabbits and such, or laying the gun in the snow or on the wet lawn, etc etc etc, then just leaning it in the corner while everyone else was whining and re-oiling thier remingtons, mossbergs, and benellis.

 

I guess that was a disadvantage, because I would get stuck frying backstrap in butter and garlic for everyone for lunch LOL.

 

...and I still havent converted it, since leaving NY. I dont think I will, either. Ill buy another one if I really want to convert it.

 

I guess I wouldn't mind a 5 round mag.......for a little while. But it would be nice to have a 10 rounder :D .

 

 

 

I was telling my friend about the S12's the other day, and he asked why I need it. I said I don't need it, I want it. To be honest, I have no absolute need for any of my guns, but that's not what it's about. My guns are mainly for fun, something I like to do (and of course HD if need be). It's funny to hear some people's thoughts on guns, it amuses me.

Edited by 22_Shooter
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OK, the conversion is out, I don't wanna mess with grey area. The same goes for the RAA skeleton stock, don't wanna mess with that grey area either. But I definitely think it would still be worth it to get it, even though I can't convert it right now. I mean, I don't plan on living in NY forever, so I'd like to have an S12 for later conversion. Plus, these things are getting harder to come by, and going up in price and popularity, so I figure I better jump on one now if I ever want one. I'm thinking years down the road, two things could happen: 1) They are banned. 2) The price gets out of my reach.

 

I have a suggestion for you. If you do plan on leaving NY soon like I am , and want a conversion from Tromix done. Ask to be put on the list now, so by the time you move you will be closer on the list. Then having to wait after you move to be put on the list.

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OK, the conversion is out, I don't wanna mess with grey area. The same goes for the RAA skeleton stock, don't wanna mess with that grey area either. But I definitely think it would still be worth it to get it, even though I can't convert it right now. I mean, I don't plan on living in NY forever, so I'd like to have an S12 for later conversion. Plus, these things are getting harder to come by, and going up in price and popularity, so I figure I better jump on one now if I ever want one. I'm thinking years down the road, two things could happen: 1) They are banned. 2) The price gets out of my reach.

 

I have a suggestion for you. If you do plan on leaving NY soon like I am , and want a conversion from Tromix done. Ask to be put on the list now, so by the time you move you will be closer on the list. Then having to wait after you move to be put on the list.

 

My move has nowhere near a set time, but I know it won't be soon. I'd love a Tromix conversion, but I don't have that kinda dough right now (well I do plan on winning about $950 in a pool for tonights game though :D ). I have tomorrow off, so I think I'm gonna call the shop I got my x39 from and see if he has any S12's.

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