birdv 0 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 What would be the best starting place for a drum system? Material? What have you tried? Where have you fail? Is this a stupid idea? Anyone tried PVC?????????? I have alot of PVC from 1/2 inch to 14 inches. Would PVC hold up? It is pretty thick stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 What would be the best starting place for a drum system? Is this a stupid idea? Not really stupid, but a subject that most Saiga owners would be smart to leave alone. Many here believe that if a drum is made for the Saiga that this will be reason enough for the BATFE to start proceedings to regulate the Saiga as a Destructive Device. Once the Saiga is deemed a DD anyone who wants to purchase a "new" Saiga would also have to register the shotgun with the ATF AND pay $200 for the NFA tax stamp. Anytime you take the DD shotgun out of your house you will always have to carry a copy of your $200 tax stamp or you will go to jail. If you buy your Saiga and pay the mandatory $200 tax for the NFA stamp and then decide to sell it you will have to pay another $200 to the ATF and the buyer will have to pay $200 to have the BATFE re-register the shotgun to the buyer. Alot of trouble for a $300 shotgun..... IF the Saiga is deemed a DD by the BATFE it will be the death knell for these shotguns in America. A drum is the first step toward that.... LB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Very true USMC LB. If you do you're homework, you'll see that the drum idea has been discussed before and most people here have agreed it's better left alone. I don't care if you build something that holds 100rds, just don't post it! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CIB 0 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) FWIW, there is only one $200 tax per transfer. Unless it goes out of state. If they go DD "ala" the Street Sweeper", there will be an amnesty period where you can register it w/o the $200 tax. Forgot to add, I've got a $300 M11/9 that I paid $1,000 for plus the tax, and a $100 dealer transfer fee. Among several. Edited November 12, 2004 by CIB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 You're right about the taxes, I bought an M11/9 and had it transfered from out of state to a dealer here ($200)...but here's the best part, no one in my county will sign to transfer it to me. There's one more guy I haven't asked, after that, I'm changing addresses. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Oldwheat 0 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) ...I did the class-3 gig a few years back, got to be a real PITA with changes in the law (Yeah, THOSE changes) so I deep-sixed it................The drum mag thing is a real 'time bomb' ; don't give 'em the slightest excuse ............... Edited November 12, 2004 by Oldwheat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 Some states do not even allow ANY dd's, or full auto's for ANY individual. Is limited even with the LEO agencies in my home state. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CIB 0 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) Kysoldier, that just ain't right. Heck, I'm on the other end of the spectrum. My Sheriff does'nt even bother to read the F1, F4 just asks me "where do I need to sign old man?" Go figure! Edited November 12, 2004 by CIB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 KY, I feel your pain! My county is same way. Supposed to be the same way here (I haven't dabbled in the class 3 stuff .... yet). Several here incorporate some business. Then they let the corp own them and as head of the corp they can possess them. I think a there are a couple of 2A friendly lawyers that even help with the set up. I only mention this to give you options. Rather than move to a friendly 2a county, you might consider this other route. Alternatively, you might consider legal action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
birdv 0 Posted November 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I won't be posting results. I have already been warned about DD. I don't want to kill the saiga 12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I won't be posting results. I have already been warned about DD. I don't want to kill the saiga 12. Thank you. I, and the rest of us, want to keep the Saiga around and not kill it by getting greedy. It's a fine gun for general purposes as is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 birdv: Thanks for understanding. CIB: I wish I had your sherrif...and the kicker is, I knew the guy that ran against the sherrif we have now, he was a friend of my dad's and would have surely signed. kmoore: I read-up about how you can incorporate and no one has to sign off. But that's a big hassle and expense. Not to mention I'd have to file taxes for the corpration, etc. I've still got another way open to me...In KY, I can change my home address to my girlfriends parent's house without living their because I'm still in college. I just need to get it done before I graduate or get deployed again! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 The best base for the project would be the Knoxx 12 gauge drum, and then just fabricate a Saiga feed tower and a string of dummy 12 gauge follower cartridges to index the shells intot he feed tower. It would be very simple and straight forward. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot harry 0 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I wouldnt even want to hump a drum of 12ga. The weight alone would be a pain. And I am on board with it not becoming a DD. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot harry 0 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 also......... the Knoxx drum is only 10 rounds. Alot of trouble to fab one just for 2 rounds.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 (edited) I think people need to just accept that sooner or later, a drum will be made. ATF's interpratation of this- be it DD land or not, is all conjecture. If Lloyd Bensten was still running the Treasury Department and was doing the bidding of Bill Clinton, I might worry- but now, I don't. THe drum will become an issue of the haves versus the have nots- those who go ahead and secure their Saiga 12 drums will have them, and those who don't will be left to wring their hands and cry of great injustice when they are stuck without one. As far as everyone rallying around the fire and rubber-stamping that production of a Saiga 12 drum will make the model a DD, you are pretty much creating a self-fufilling prophecy. If ATF has the consensus of Saiga 12 owners that a drum is a DD, then they know there won't be much of a fight from them if such decleration is ever made. Edited November 12, 2004 by McUZI Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaltPeter 6 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I agree with McUZI. The Street Sweeper and Stryker 12 were reclassified during the Clinton administration's BATF. I would think that the current administration would look the other way regarding semi-auto guns. As proved by the expiration of the AWB, limiting magazine capacities for semi-autos is an unpopular thing to do politcally. The BATF is comprised of department heads appointed by the current administration and the Republicans would probably like to keep the momentum they have by not pissing off gun owners. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cpileri 0 Posted November 12, 2004 Report Share Posted November 12, 2004 I would think that the ATF will reclassify the saiga as a DD in a broader sweep such as 'all semi-auto shotguns' or 'any shotgun capable of accepting a detachable magazine' or someshuch. Idea: paint can lids? kydex for the formed parts? salvage a spring winding unit from a cheap Suomi drum or something similar? Post ideas, not results. C- Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 DON'T MAKE A DRUM THAT FITS AN UN-MODIFIED S-12!!! --- If you just GOTTA make that damned drum (and SOMEBODY probably will) make sure that it will NOT fit an UNMODIFIED S-12. That could be as simple as putting a bead on one side of the mag requiring a 'c' notch in the magwell.That way the modified S-12 will still take regular mags, but drum will only work on modified gun! A 12ga drum is not easy to make,it requires a tapered shell to duplicate the curve of a stick mag. This is a rimmed shell, and needs internal guides for the rim. Anyone clever enough to make one work is clever enough to put an extra rib on the side of the mag. If not person or persons unknown might just post their picture under "fun things to -----' G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Fact is, there is no way to make a magazine that works with a "specially modified" Saiga-12 that couldn't itself be dremmeled on to make it work in a regular Saiga. Someone will make a drum- Yes, for sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K1196A 0 Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 The DD thing is bound to happen! I part bought my Saiga 12C with that expectation. I look at the purchase as an investment and a fun toy. Best part is -- I won't have to pay the $200 stamp when it happens! If you're all really worried about it, stock up now so you have them for resale! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Don't just blow off the idea of making that damned drum to NOT fit an unmodified S-12 . The mod may be easy to do, BUT the difference between a LEGAL reciever and an ILLEGAL reciever is ONE hole. Drill hole for 3rd pin(FA) GO TO JAIL. Make notch for drum DD. No 3rd hole OK semiauto only. No drum notch OK.regular mags only. It would be nice if ALL hi-cap mags had the extra rib. G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot harry 0 Posted November 13, 2004 Report Share Posted November 13, 2004 Don't think you'll get away with not paying the 200 buck stamp. If they become DD then you'll have to register it. If you fail to then I would imagin the BATF stormtroopers will be knocking on your door. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
birdv 0 Posted November 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 also......... the Knoxx drum is only 10 rounds. Alot of trouble to fab one just for 2 rounds.... 10 * 2 = worth it and heavy as a MF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swiftvision 0 Posted November 15, 2004 Report Share Posted November 15, 2004 The best base for the project would be the Knoxx 12 gauge drum, and then just fabricate a Saiga feed tower and a string of dummy 12 gauge follower cartridges to index the shells intot he feed tower. It would be very simple and straight forward. Why would you need the string of dummy rounds? It's already made for 12 gauge shells right? Just need the feed tower to fit I would think.....you could even use the same follower right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 The best base for the project would be the Knoxx 12 gauge drum, and then just fabricate a Saiga feed tower and a string of dummy 12 gauge follower cartridges to index the shells intot he feed tower. It would be very simple and straight forward. Why would you need the string of dummy rounds? It's already made for 12 gauge shells right? Just need the feed tower to fit I would think.....you could even use the same follower right? The dummy rounds are used to index the cartridges into the longer feed tower. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swiftvision 0 Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 So why use a dummy round and not another live one? Or why not just make the feed tower the same hieght as the saiga? The Saiga doesn't look very high to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
McUZI 1 Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 So why use a dummy round and not another live one? Or why not just make the feed tower the same hieght as the saiga? The Saiga doesn't look very high to me. The dummy rounds are used to index the cartridge into position, which would be required on a Knoxx-To-Saiga conversion. They act as a follower. Now, I'm not a patient enough person to explain technical complexities of things to people who insist on stating their questions as affirmative declarations without breaking down and making personal insults- so maybe someone else here can help you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
swiftvision 0 Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 (edited) I guess what I don't understand is if you keep the height of the feed tube the same, why can't you use the follower in the knoxx drum? It is designed to push 10 12 gauge shells up....why would something different be needed? I'd like to know the technical info, PM me if you prefer. Edited November 16, 2004 by swiftvision Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CIB 0 Posted November 16, 2004 Report Share Posted November 16, 2004 Too late guys, Historic Arms LLC, has done the Knoxx feed tower conversion, or at least it is in the works. Check it out http://www.subguns.com/boards/mgmsg.cgi?read=418613 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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