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Noticed something with AGP Magazines


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I noticed the more I used my ten rounders, The more I started to get failures to feed rounds. The shell would be angled and jammed up against the barrel. I read all the remedies I could find on here about fixing the problem and tried a few. I still wouldn't have it run 100% all the time. I then noticed something, that I don't' think I ever saw talked about on here.

 

As you can see in the picture below, I have the AGP on the left and the factory mag on the right. The problem I see on mine is the little stub (yellow arrow) has worn down bad, making my mag sit loose against the bottom of the gun and throwing off the shell angle. It looks to me that the tab was put there to change the angle of where the mag would sit (see blue line). Now if you measure the blue line to the steel lip it comes out the same as the factory one (purple lines). Why didn't they just move up those three ridges a little to copy the factory ones angle (instead of red line, blue line)? That way you wouldn't have such a small surface area to wear out. You would have one like the factory one that runs the full length of the magazine.

 

 

 

Does anybody have this problem? I bought these at my local gun shop, was I given a older design? Is there a newer design one out now?

 

BTW-> I have never had one problem with the factory magazines.

 

I plan on calling AGP next week, but I would like to get some feed back from members on here about what they think about this. So I have more information on the topic to talk to AGP about.

 

Mags001Mod.jpg

 

 

Mags001.jpg

Edited by GearHeadFTW
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I actually posted that as a possible failure point when they first came out. I thought that the side-to-side movement of the mags would wear them down too much.

 

AGP mags are good, but I sold all of mine. I have lots of factory 8 rd mags, and they lock in ROCK SOLID!!! I sacrificed the 2 rounds for it, and I don't really care.

 

This is in no way a rip on AGP mags, as I think they work just fine!

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I noticed that on mine too, mine fit in my gun awfully wobbly but they seem to work fine, even though that little ridge is now long gone. I wonder if some JB Weld would do the trick of rebuilding/reinforcing the ridge and getting rid of that danged wobble.

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Headshot, can I see that post are can you tell me the out come of that post. What did some of the guys say about your idea?

 

 

Edit: To Add

 

Just saw close up photos of the keep shooting mags, and they have the same design as the factory ones (not the little tab part). Does anyone know why AGP did theres the way they did?

 

Also is there a Rep for AGP thats a member here, that can give some feed back on this?

Edited by GearHeadFTW
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Where is your round snagging is it on the bottom of the barrel, if so your going to have to smooth the snags with a dremmel again take as little as possible I did it on my two S-12 and it worked fine. I think Veen posted directions to accomplish the task a while back. AGP mags and OEM 8s have a lower feed angle a bit lower some times factory 8 would snag on the top never had it happen with 3 inch but 2 3/4 would once in a great while.

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Thanks Topmaul. It is hitting on the bottom of the barrel. I do remember reading about grinding more off of the bottom of the barrel (where it has already been relieved slightly from the factory, but taking more).

 

If thats what I have to do to get these to work I will have to wait. My situation is I'm on the list at Tromix. I don't want to start playing with things then have to let Tony go over it.

 

It would be like me trying to tile my bathroom, after I figure out I don't know what I'm doing, I then have to call in the professional to clean up the mess.

 

Tony if you are Bob are reading this, is this one of those finishing touches you perform when doing conversions? I remember reading at WT you do a few extras on the guns to make them work so great, is this one of the things you do? Or is it a extra cost?

 

I would still like some more info into why these mags where design this way.

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I didn't make this topic for people to say they are crap or not. I understand where your coming from since I'm having problems with them to. I am more interested in seeing what can be done to improve the design or if the design even needs improving. I notice over two hundred members have looked at this topic and few are responding. which makes me think 1) There are only a few of us that are having this problem 2) People don't want to comment since they have a business banner (bad for business) 3) Nobody cares what I say.

 

 

If the majority of people here feel they are great as is, then fine. I say then its not worth me trying to get some ideas together and maybe me are a group of members here try to give the info to AGP so they can come up with a slightly better design. So everyone can enjoy them.

 

Me personally, ever since I got them they would fit loose but they worked. Now that they have been worn down, I wouldn't rely on them for nothing.

 

If nothing comes from this hopefully keep shooting will come out with some 8's or 10's. Or Mike D. comes out with his mags as I heard he will down the road.

Edited by GearHeadFTW
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Haven't had the time to get mine worn yet. Keeping an eye on this thread.

 

 

I do have an idea as to why mine have worn down already. I practiced loading and unloading the magazines A LOT in the beginning to get the motion down, now I just do a refresher course once a day when watching TV at night. I would say I have loaded and unloaded my mags as much as a guy that has had his for years but never trained heavily with the load unload part, but put more time into shooting stuff. Also since its been proved that these guns all have slightly different tolerances, I would guess maybe my Saiga is more on the loser side. Theres still the fact that these mags fit very loose in the guns compared to factory mags.

 

As for as "Keeping an eye on this thread" I appreciate your interest in the post, but by the look of things... I don't think will be hearing much from most people....

 

Which I find funny. Since all I have ever hear from this place is, whatever you buy should work as is. You shouldn't have to tweak anything or do anything to make something you bought work right. Which I agree. Look at that scrape of junk 20 round drum wm came out with. We all agreed why should we have to play around with something to get it to work right (having to work around someones design flaw). Yet I see topics and topics of tricks to make the AGP work right in your gun, loosen screws, unbend the feed lip, sand the inside of the mag, use graphite powder, play with the follower, is the spring to short to long... and on an on. But thats OK somehow.

 

As far as I'm concern it looks like more people like there AGP's then dislike them. So I'm not going to waste my time and energy making phone calls to try and get a better designed magazine in the members hands here. Which would have been a lot easier if members here that are known for there knowledge of Saiga stuff would help out, since it would be a lot easier then having one noob make a point to the manufacturer. Luckily I only bought two 10 rounders and they still look new so I'll just sell them and wait for a dependable magazine to come out.

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Email sent to AGP today, I figured before I throw my hands up in the air and say forget it, I will give them a chance to discuss there side...

 

I was told by a member from the Saiga-12 forum to give you guys a call if you have any problems with your magazines. I bought two 10 round magazines from you a few months ago, and even though they fit loose from the beginning, they worked. I have noticed over time they have become very difficult to rely on since the magazine has worn down and in doing so has thrown of the feed angle slightly enough to become a problem in my gun (You can go to the web site below to find out exactly what I'm talking about). Any solutions?

 

You can find all the info at....

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=23150

 

Feel free to answer back there if you are a member are want to become a member. If you are not a member and don't plan on becoming one feel free to email me back and I will post your response.

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I only purchased my Saiga 12 a month ago, due to being unsatisfied with my 870 in 3 Gun competition and watching the Saigas dominate the shotgun sections. I wanted one anyway, but this cemented it. When I purchased it, I also bought 2 of the AGP 10 rd mags from the same dealer. I later ordered 5 more of the AGP mags from another dealer off the 'net.

I waited to test fire and sight in the gun until I had finished my modifications to save on ammo consumption, ammo prices being what they are. Details of the mods are in the picture thread. When I test fired it and the mags (I have yet to use the 5 rd that came with it), I noticed that high brass shells were a little tight right at the top as they came up to the feeding position, but the only ones I put high brass shells in at the time were the original 2 that I purchased with the gun. I know which 2 they are because I Duracoated them along with the gun, and I hadn't received the others yet. I didn't Duracoat the insides or the follower. Anyway, there were one or two FTF due to the last round failing to come up through this tight spot. I decided that a little judicious sanding was in order, disassembled these 2 mags one at a time, and using a piece of 220 grit wrapped over the floorplate for a flat sanding block, hit the area in question. To test my progress I would install the follower and just pushing in one or two coils of the spring and holding it flush with my hand, thus leaving approx. half of the spring still outside of the mag, place one to two rounds of the high brass shells that were hanging up and see if the follower would return them to the top past the tight spot to the feeding position. If it would, I stopped sanding as I knew it would work with the additional tension of the rest of the spring installed. When I got to the other 5 mags, I noticed that they really didn't need this sanding, they were easy enough already. I did just hit them lightly as there was some flash from molding just inside about 1/2" down were a molding plug was in the mold.

The dealer I had purchased these 5 from had told me that they had just gotten in a new batch and that AGP was slowing down production. The point here is that clearly, from lot to lot, differences occur in the mags. This could be the molding process itself, or the forming of the feed lips, as the tight spot is under these and could be squeezing pressure of the spring steel. It is also possible that AGP is making small adjustments to the mags from lot to lot to improve them. I have a bunch of entirely polymer (except the spring) mags for my AR as well, and they have come from a couple different lots. These, too, have small differences, although they don't affect function. As part of my mods to the gun, I squared the rear corners of the magwell as the mags were hitting there, and broke the sharp edges of the magwell where the mags go in, both to make it easier to insert them and to keep the steel receiver from wearing on the mags too quickly. I also beveled the top edges of the mag itself at the front corner and the sides where it would hit to make insertion easier.

Obvoiusly, I haven't had my AGP mags long enough or used them enough to have any major problems, but so far I am happy with them.

 

This is my observation, take from it what you will.

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Gunfixr, All very valid points. As for as your idea of different lots, I can see how that could be true. Me having only two, it would not be right to say if there design has been slightly changing from lot to lot since I don't have any other mags to compare. I would say maybe this is the reason why some mags seem to be more problematic then others. Also I gathered from your post, if you don't mind tweaking around with the mags that are problematic, you can make them work more reliable. I personally don't find it right having to do anything when you payed around $50.oo for a mag, When you have a company like keep shooting selling dirt cheap mags and from reports so far there working perfectly.

 

Another problem I have noticed, and anyone with mags that are having problems can try this to see what I'm talking about...

 

Pull the bolt back and lock it back. Now insert a unmodified AGP 10 round clip with lets say 8 rounds into the gun. With the bolt still open press up and down a few times, ever time letting off the shells notice how the top shell is sitting (The feed angle is always slightly different). I believe this to be from the added friction in the mags and the reason why people that are willing to tweak there mags by sanding the inside and playing with the tension on the feed lip OR THEN having better results with the magazines. Do the same test with your factory 5's you'll see its consistent where the top shell sits.

 

I do believe what Topmaul said about the feed ramp on the barrel is DEAD ON! If you willing to do that I'm sure you can get away with AGP's design as is all the time (It'll be more reliable). Is there anyone out there with a factory stock gun using un-tweak AGP magazines with no problems? I'm starting two think there are three groups of people using there magazines with no problems. Group 1) Factory gun no mods with tweaked AGP magazines or Group 2) un-tweaked never touched AGP magazines being used in a gun that has been worked on (modded feed ramp ect.) Group 3) modded AGP mags and gun.

 

 

Buckmeister, I don't know what to think. The odds of one breaking at the range in that way is one thing, but the guy breaks both the same day at the range? It's a interesting topic but hard to figure out what went wrong. Only thing I could think of was instead of keeping one hand on the hand guard he was keeping it on the magazine while putting lots of backward pressure while shooting...... Other then that I have no idea.

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i am running a stock gun with piston and hammer changed for US AGP mag no mods i have gotten the shaving of those two side tabs but this gun has rocked from the start no break in at all and the AGP`s are working with out issue with wolf OO buck and some OLD slug 3" and 2 3/4 shot no problems from round one :wub:

 

 

What do you mean by........ "i have gotten the shaving of those two side tabs"

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I plan on calling AGP next week, but I would like to get some feed back from members on here about what they think about this. So I have more information on the topic to talk to AGP about.

 

Have you contacted AGP??????

 

 

Please read this sticky thread.....

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19834

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I plan on calling AGP next week, but I would like to get some feed back from members on here about what they think about this. So I have more information on the topic to talk to AGP about.

 

Have you contacted AGP??????

 

 

Please read this sticky thread.....

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19834

 

 

Yes I did read it. I contacted them by email, no answer yet. You may have missed it but look at post #11 in this topic. Thats the email I sent them.

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my gun has shaved off the two little molded protrusions at the backon sides of the mags above the top full width of the mag ridge

 

 

So what you saying is the tabs on your magazine have worn away but you are having no problems with feeding with the tabs worn down? Thats good to hear your not having any problems.

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Headshot, can I see that post are can you tell me the out come of that post. What did some of the guys say about your idea?

 

 

Edit: To Add

 

Just saw close up photos of the keep shooting mags, and they have the same design as the factory ones (not the little tab part). Does anyone know why AGP did theres the way they did?

 

Also is there a Rep for AGP thats a member here, that can give some feed back on this?

 

 

The AGPs used to have a single vertical line there. When the issue was brought up, the made that single line into that hump.

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Just so everyones on the same page Headshot. Your saying AGP's mags use to have one long vertical line running across there mag, the same way the factory and the keep shooting ones have them? What was the reason for the change.... FTF? Also could it have been the top vertical line had the wrong angle or was it placed a little to high or to low on the mag? I don"t understand why they would change the design to two tiny tabs to control how deep a magazine is going to fit in the well. To me it would make more sense to move those vertical lines to the proper angle and depth.

 

Heashot do you feel the change made it better, worse are the same? Thanks for the input.

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As far as the Keepshooting mags go, all I see are 5 round mags. I want higher capacity. As far as modding the mags goes, the 5 newer ones were working without mods, I'm just anal about reliability. The 2 first ones had hung up once, but only once. Using them, I believe, would have broken them in without mods. Again, I'm just anal about reliability so I didn't wait for break in. As far as rounding the top edge goes, I did it to ease insertion to make it faster and easier so under the time clock, it wouldn't be an issue.

As I have 7 now, I'm not planning at this time to get any more, as any vest I set up would probably hold 6 with one for the gun. I will probably soon order some of the feed lips and maybe a spring or two just to keep on hand.

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I plan on calling AGP next week, but I would like to get some feed back from members on here about what they think about this. So I have more information on the topic to talk to AGP about.

 

Have you contacted AGP??????

 

 

Please read this sticky thread.....

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19834

 

 

 

Yes I did read it. I contacted them by email, no answer yet. You may have missed it but look at post #11 in this topic. Thats the email I sent them.

 

 

Gearhead, I hope my comments were not taken wrong.

I'm SURE 99% of folks are grateful that we have a US made 10 rd mag.

AGP has had top notch customer service.

Even to the point of sending out and replacing all the feed lips off the first gen of mags

at no cost or increase or cost to future mags.

I have not heard of anyone who has been dis satisfied with AGP

after talking with them directly.

(AND NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN CHARGED FOR A RELIABILITY SERVICE

TO HAVE YOUR GUN WORK WITH THEIR MAG!)

By contacting them directly, you give them a chance to not only provide

an answer to you question, but a chance to improve their product.

Little things like this have a tendency of "blowing up".

People read them and an opinion is formed off of the exceptions, not the norm....

Sales decrease, R&D stop.... Poof! No more Mags! and then we pay out 120 bucks for Izzy 8 rounders

that are NOT compliant.

 

here is their Ph. #

Phone: 480-983-6083

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Just so everyones on the same page Headshot. Your saying AGP's mags use to have one long vertical line running across there mag, the same way the factory and the keep shooting ones have them? What was the reason for the change.... FTF? Also could it have been the top vertical line had the wrong angle or was it placed a little to high or to low on the mag? I don"t understand why they would change the design to two tiny tabs to control how deep a magazine is going to fit in the well. To me it would make more sense to move those vertical lines to the proper angle and depth.

 

Heashot do you feel the change made it better, worse are the same? Thanks for the input.

 

Vertical line, not horizontal.

 

 

It was like this:

 

==|===========

==|===========

 

Now its like this:

 

>>___

==|=|===========

==|=|===========

 

 

The change made it better. That one little line squished down pretty fast. The plastic is pretty soft.

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Another failure reported on ARFCOM:

 

LINK

 

HPIM0095.jpg

 

buckmeister

 

 

I had a mag break like this on round number 11... I contacted AGP and they replaced the body immediately (replacement body in two days!). Customer service said they had early batches that had this flaw.

I have yet to compare mfg differeces since this just happened within 30 days...

FIFTY

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Headshot you are correct, every time I said vertical I meant to say horizontal.

 

 

Juggernaut, Thanks for your concern. I didn't take what you said the wrong way, but I did feel as if I was stepping on peoples or your toes a little. I did read that post first. Which made me think if this was a good idea at all to start this topic. I decided to do it, knowing I would have to be very careful how I worded thing because I DID NOT want it to be taken as a complaint tread. If anyone feels I'm trying to imply AGP is no good, I want everyone to know I have no problem with the company what so ever or Juggernaut for sharing his thoughts. Personally I agree with Juggernaut that the company did a fine job supplying a demand for 10 round magazines. Also I agree that sometimes a persons opinion can snowball into giving a company a bad reputation. I want everyone to know I am sure if I called them they would have handled it great, if it was replacing them, giving me a refund, or suggestions on how to fix the problem.

 

The reason I did not call was I figured the small percentage of people that are having problems would never learn what to do with out calling themselves. Everywhere I looked on this web site I would see one tip there and another post with a tip there. All these ideas, but scattered everywhere. But never one topic that discussed all these ideas on how to make the mags work better. I figured this could be that post, where everyone could share there ideas on fine tuning there mags. Also to get some new ideas on fine tuning there magazines which I now think I have found, I will talk about that in a second.

 

Only way I think anyone here can really try to understand me and why I made this topic is to know me better. The best examples I can give are as followed.

 

When the Model-T first came out I would be the guy (like many of you I would guess) who would say, yea the brakes work but can't we improve the design to make it stop even better. As for as I'm concern everybody and everything should always strive to be the better. Just because you are I find or someone tells us a better way of doing something doesn't mean the way we did it before was bad or stupid. We just found a better way of doing something. When I was growing up my parents always told me "Not to settle with the rest, but be YOUR best." The second reason is a simple one. I've been trained to solve my own problems with what I am given. I figured we could all learn a lot more with trying to find new are already proven ways of making them work better for everyone. I personally would hate the idea of trading in my two mags and getting two brand new ones, I want the ones I have to work. I guess you can say I like challenges.

 

Now not to be a pain in the ass Juggernaut, but I have found a way to make my magazines work perfect early today. So I really don't have a reason to call them now. But I would like to share what I found, I feel it will put everyone in a better light since a part of the reason I believe I had a problem with my magazines where MY FAULT. Yes I said it. Let me explain.

 

As I have mentioned before, I have been practicing loading and unloading my 10 round magazine at night like a mad man. I can't even begin to imagine how many times. I was basically wearing down those small taps and in doing so the magazine would keeping sitting higher and higher in the well. Since the tabs have worn down so much in between actually using them to shot stuff, when I would use it the bolt would be hitting the magazine. This all came to me when I was trying to figure out why the one I was having such problems with (the one I practiced most with reloading) compared to the one I used more like a normal person (not just loading and unloading). In the picture below you can see the one on the left that I practiced a lot with loading and the one on the right that was used in a more normal wear and tear way. I noticed the wear areas in the yellow circles.

 

damaged1.jpg

 

What made me think about this was the reports I heard some say about them working better with usage. I'm thinking when used normally, as the tabs would wear down a little the bolt would also be taking small amounts of plastic off the back in between the steel lips. Since it was taking so little off the gun at a time, the gun never had a problem. In my case, I'm wearing the shit out of my tabs then when I tried to use as intended , the bolt would hit the magazine, since it never wore down that area little by little. I know this is the case for my situation, as for as others..... Does anyone notice wear in the area I have the yellow circles? This goes for people with problems or without.

 

On to the way I fixed my magazines. You need one tool... this kind of file shape.

P1000056.jpg

 

You take out all the internal stuff, spring, follower, plate ect. Also you remove the steel feed lip. With the file you start to channel out the rear portion in between where the feed lip sits. Basically where the bolt goes flying back and forth. I think with the magazines being lose, the tolerances up top in that area where to tight and where allowing the bolt to rub against the magazines. So I opened up that area more. I think the picture explains what to do best. When your done it looks like this with the steel lip back on.

P1000044.jpg

 

I figured I should reshape the steel feed lip to follow the new shape. But for the record I tried it out without filing the lip and it work perfect and there where no signs the bolt ever hit the lip anyways.

 

Picture of modified lip and mag on left, factory mag on right.

P1000058.jpg

 

So the only things I did to make my magazines work for me was the following. I channeled out around the feed lip area as you see above, and for the tight friction on the follower I loosened every screw a quarter of a turn out from being fully tightened. Since I feel that way is safer then possible sanding to much off the inside of your magazine. The screw way you can adjust as needed.

 

As far as testing goes. I hand cycled a full magazine 10 times with no problem. I then proceeded to lay the barrel on a object and but the stock in between my legs so I would have a free hand and cycled full round mags again but this time with my free hand yanking the magazine left right back and forth while cycling to see if it would fail.... It never did. Went to the range and fired 50 rounds threw it... it never jammed.

 

As far as doing this I would wait till I have at least used them for a while and see how they hold up. I still don't know if this is a freak accident caused by my compulsive disorder of training to load and unload magazine are the tolerances that my gun came with from the factory. I would say if you do notice slight wear in the mentioned areas, this might be something to consider.

 

To wrap this...

 

Juggernaut I understand if you want to delete this topic, I would only ask if you would at least allow a day are two for the people that where interested in this to be able to read it. So they can know how it turned out. I also feel I made it more clearly with this post that I have and had no problems with AGP at any time, but only wanted people to get involved, so the gears in peoples heads would start turning and new ideas and improvements could be found. I feel the response that I was given from the people here helped me to find my solution.

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No man... it's all good.

I ain't tryin' to silence anybody...and I don't feel your on a witch hunt either....

Just want to give AGP a chance too respond to your questions directly.

We have things set up the way they are for a reason.

 

Nothin' but respect

~J

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