Verify Compliance on my Conversion:

[einherjrar 0]

I have an RAA imported Saiga 12 that I have converted to a pistol grip and forward trigger group.

 

I have a 17+1/2 inch long barrel with a 1/2 inch muzzle break WELDED ONTO THE BARREL (barrel length is 18" exact).

 

I have US made pistol grip, rear stock, and FCG (tapco USA) for a total swap of 5 domestic parts.

 

Since (and I had to research this) the choke (full) is welded onto the barrel, it does not count as a muzzle device or barrel extension.

 

So, since most saiga 12's have 14 imported parts (because they have a muzzle device), but since I technically have no muzzle device (it is now permanent barrel fixture as defined by law), then I have one less component, bringing my total imported parts down to 13.

 

My understanding is that I now have 8 imported parts on the weapon (13imported - 5domestic = 8 imported remaining)

 

My big (Q)uestion is : If I swap the follower on a russian magazine with an american made follower, (which will leave 2 imported parts on the magazine), do I satisfy the parts requirement to use it on the saiga 12 I converted?

 

 

***

Yes, I am one of the 'unlucky' owners of one of the first series to be imported under RAA after import ban was lifted. Goof up at factory was passed onto me, via welded choke)

[madmax4x4 68]

FCG is 3 parts stock is one, grip is not counted because it was not on stock saiga so it is not a replacement part. if choke is welded you have 13 parts count take 4 to US parts that is 9 import parts. You would not need to change follower

[Navy87Guy 1]

When you converted to the pistol grip configuration, you increased your parts count by one -- so you now have 14 parts that count toward 922R. With your stated US-parts (pistol grip, butt stock, TAPCO G2 FCG) you are already compliant - so there are no further mods necessary. Replacing a foreign-made part (like a mag follower) can never make you less compliant -- it just makes you an overachiever.

 

Jim

[einherjrar 0]

FCG is 3 parts stock is one, grip is not counted because it was not on stock saiga so it is not a replacement part. if choke is welded you have 13 parts count take 4 to US parts that is 9 import parts. You would not need to change follower

 

 

Is that count already including the parts from imported magazines, ie; the body, the floorplate, and the follower?

 

Do those things only apply to non detachable magazines?

 

Clearly, I'm a bit confused.

 

Below is a short parts list.

********************************************************************************

*

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(2) Barrels (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(3) Barrel extensions (None)

(4) Mounting blocks (trunions) (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(5) Muzzle attachments* (*-Choke welded on barrel per regulation, N/A Muzzle Attachments. )

(6) Bolts (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(7) Bolt carriers (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(8) Operating rods (None)

(9) Gas pistons (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(10) Trigger housings (None)

(11) Triggers (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(12) Hammers (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(13) Sears (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(14) Disconnectors (None)

(15) Buttstocks (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(16) Pistol grips (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(17) Forearm handguards (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(18) Magazine bodies (detachable)

(19) Followers (detachable)

(20) Floorplates (detachable)

***********************************************************************

Applying to a saiga 12, did I leave any parts out?

 

From this list I compiled, if I use a factory or imported magazine, will the weapon become an illegal device?

 

Or am I in the clear with imported mags?

[einherjrar 0]

When you converted to the pistol grip configuration, you increased your parts count by one -- so you now have 14 parts that count toward 922R. With your stated US-parts (pistol grip, butt stock, TAPCO G2 FCG) you are already compliant - so there are no further mods necessary. Replacing a foreign-made part (like a mag follower) can never make you less compliant -- it just makes you an overachiever.

 

Jim

 

I may have been misunderstood, I am already short by 1 part due to having my choke welded onto the barrel, I added 5 domestic components, replacing 4 and adding 1. so, while most saigas have 14 parts that apply to 922r, I only have 13.

 

I went back and counted last night, though I may have not included something. Please examine the list below if you see an error I have produced.

 

Remaining legal is a big deal to me, and it's something I've had to devote a great deal of thought to before, and since my conversion.

 

I've assembled a list of my parts, please note if there is anything I've recorded wrong.

(I actually think I've not listed a part below that is probably on the rifle)

Below is a short parts list.

********************************************************************************

*

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(2) Barrels (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(3) Barrel extensions (None)

(4) Mounting blocks (trunions) (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(5) Muzzle attachments* (*-Choke welded on barrel per regulation, N/A Muzzle Attachments. )

(6) Bolts (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(7) Bolt carriers (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(8) Operating rods (None)

(9) Gas pistons (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(10) Trigger housings (None)

(11) Triggers (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(12) Hammers (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(13) Sears (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(14) Disconnectors (None)

(15) Buttstocks (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(16) Pistol grips (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(17) Forearm handguards (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(18) Magazine bodies (detachable)

(19) Followers (detachable)

(20) Floorplates (detachable)

***********************************************************************

Applying to a saiga 12, did I leave any parts out?

 

From this list I compiled, if I use a factory or imported magazine, will the weapon become an illegal device?

 

Or am I in the clear with imported mags?

 

 

 

Thanks in advance.

[Navy87Guy 1]

I may have been misunderstood, I am already short by 1 part due to having my choke welded onto the barrel, I added 5 domestic components, replacing 4 and adding 1. so, while most saigas have 14 parts that apply to 922r, I only have 13.

 

I went back and counted last night, though I may have not included something. Please examine the list below if you see an error I have produced.

 

Remaining legal is a big deal to me, and it's something I've had to devote a great deal of thought to before, and since my conversion.

 

I've assembled a list of my parts, please note if there is anything I've recorded wrong.

(I actually think I've not listed a part below that is probably on the rifle)

Below is a short parts list.

****************************************************************************

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(2) Barrels (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(3) Barrel extensions (None)

(4) Mounting blocks (trunions) (Imported, Izhmash, Russia) (None)

(5) Muzzle attachments* (*-Choke welded on barrel per regulation, N/A Muzzle Attachments. )

(6) Bolts (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(7) Bolt carriers (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(8) Operating rods (None)

(9) Gas pistons (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(10) Trigger housings (None)

(11) Triggers (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(12) Hammers (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(13) Sears (Domestic, Tapco, USA) (None)

(14) Disconnectors (None) (TAPCO USA)

(15) Buttstocks (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(16) Pistol grips (Domestic, Tapco, USA)

(17) Forearm handguards (Imported, Izhmash, Russia)

(18) Magazine bodies (detachable)

(19) Followers (detachable)

(20) Floorplates (detachable)

***********************************************************************

Applying to a saiga 12, did I leave any parts out?

 

From this list I compiled, if I use a factory or imported magazine, will the weapon become an illegal device?

 

Or am I in the clear with imported mags?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

First, just FYI it's a disconnector not a sear.

 

Second, yes - the standard S12 with a threaded barrel has 14 parts (the BATFE does not count the mounting block on an S12 as a trunnion - they consider it part of the receiver. I don't understand why, I just accept it). By welding the choke in place, the count goes back to 13. When you added the pistol grip, though, the count went up to 14. Those 14 parts include the magazine.

 

So as stated already, no further modifications are necessary for you to legally use foreign magazines. Your 5 US-made parts are more than sufficient.

 

Jim

[Azrial 1,091]

Please show me the part in 922R that says that a muzzle device does not count as long as it is welded in place. You are confusing the defunct Assault Weapons Ban with 922R.

 

Other then that I agree with Navy87Guy's assessment.

[paprotective 362]

Um. I thought rifles needed a minimum of 16" barrell? My AR was 14.5 and 1.5" Brake welded on.

 

Is shotguns different in this regard?

[Navy87Guy 1]

Please show me the part in 922R that says that a muzzle device does not count as long as it is welded in place. You are confusing the defunct Assault Weapons Ban with 922R.

 

Other then that I agree with Navy87Guy's assessment.

 

I have to say -- I went with your assertion that you found it. Personally, I can't find anything in Title 27 Ch 1 Section 178 that defines what a "muzzle device" is. In Title 27 Section 478.11 (the part that defines "semiautomatic assault rifle"), it specifically talks about flash suppressors or barrels threaded to accept a flash suppressor. But as Azrial pointed out, that doesn't change anything in 178.39. (The assault weapons ban may be dead, but Section 478.11 defines the "non-sporting" features that force you to fall under 922R, so that description is still applicable.)

 

It's kind of a moot point -- even if the device (is it a choke or a muzzle break? They're different but you use both terms to describe it) counts, that makes 15 parts and you have 5 US parts, so you're still compliant regardless of the mags you use.

 

Jim

Edited March 5, 2008 by Navy87Guy

[einherjrar 0]

Um. I thought rifles needed a minimum of 16" barrell? My AR was 14.5 and 1.5" Brake welded on.

 

Is shotguns different in this regard?

 

Rifle is 16", Shotgun is 18".

[einherjrar 0]

Please show me the part in 922R that says that a muzzle device does not count as long as it is welded in place. You are confusing the defunct Assault Weapons Ban with 922R.

 

Other then that I agree with Navy87Guy's assessment.

 

It's not a function of 922r, it's a part of the broader legal definitions that BATF has listed. I can try and find it if it really matters.

 

It might be under threaded barrel, or pertaining to definition of muzzle device or extension, I admit I can't remember exactly what it states, but it mentions seam weld and non-removable in the literature. I DO KNOW that this rifle WITHOUT CHOKE would have been imported with barrel length of 17+1/2 inches, which would have made this a different class of weapon entirely.

 

As I was informed upon purchase that the choke was factory welded in place to compensate for the barrels short length (exact words were to 'retain a legal 18" barrel', I feel that it is reasonable. If I absolutely have to find the citation for satisfaction, give me a week or two and I can find it again I'm sure.

 

I think navyguy has given me enough information to satisfy my questions about which parts on my list I had incorrect,

 

so thank you for your interest.