hi-cap mags and compliance....different interpretation

[shooter12 0]

Just thought I'd share this post from the firingline.com forums. Some of you may have seen this before, but wanted to see what you guys thought about this. Looking around this forum, it's pretty clear to me that most would disagree with what I've quoted below, but just thought I'd throw it out there. Thanks

 

"Contrary to the reports of some, it is perfectly legal to use a high-capacity magazine in an unmodified Saiga so long as no other "evil" features are added (pistol grip, flash hider, bayonet lug etc.).

 

http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40375

 

922® only applies to guns that would be banned by 925(d)(3). Of all the "evil" features in 925(d)(3) a Saiga only has the detatchable magazine which is specifically excluded from the list of banned features. Neither 922® nor 925(d)(3) makes any mention of magazine capacity. Magazine capacity is only addressed in 922(v) otherwise known as the Assault Weapons Ban and that is, for the time being, expired. So, as long as you don't add any other "evil" features, you can use high capacity magazines in your Saiga and still be legal."

 

source

[Leo.Kermes 1]

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Kinda interesting, but I have no reason to test it. Gaining compliance is so easy, I'm not gonna risk it, on some gray area.

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

[nalioth 405]

There is an ATF letter out there somewhere that concerns the Ruger Mini-14 and what constitutes 'sporting purpose'. I found it once and have not been able to find it again.

 

 

When I do find it, I will be sharing it.

[Jack A Sol 2]

Edited March 8, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

The way I read the current law is, that because the saiga is not identical to a rifle which is prohibited from import,

 

There's the basis of your problem. The ATF considers Saigas of all types to be "AK type" weapons and therefore prohibited to be removed from the approved sporting configurations (inclusion of a high capacity feeding device) without part number compliance. It doesn't matter where the magazine was made or if it is of a military type. High Capacity magazines = non-sporting.

[tman2007sc 0]

[Jack A Sol 2]

The way I read the current law is, that because the saiga is not identical to a rifle which is prohibited from import,

 

There's the basis of your problem. The ATF considers Saigas of all types to be "AK type" weapons and therefore prohibited to be removed from the approved sporting configurations (inclusion of a high capacity feeding device) without part number compliance. It doesn't matter where the magazine was made or if it is of a military type. High Capacity magazines = non-sporting.

 

 

That's not what the current ATF rulings state at all!! Back up your assertion with some links, or rulings.

 

I have documented and linked every assertion I have made. the ATF has stated exactly as I assert above. i am using THIER OWN WORDS in this matter.

 

ATF rulings I link above clearly state that the magazine used cannot be of a type used or designed for a military weapon. Your assertion that the atf claims that all saigas cant be removed from sporting config without 922r compliance is fine, but it doesnt apply because the mags that I specifically state (fbmg and surfire plastics) do not qualify as "large capacity military magazines". They were designed for a SPORTING RIFLE AND NOT A MILITARY GUN. Therefore they do not make the saiga a "prohibited weapon to import" when used. if they did, then import would have been stopped.

Check this ruling out: http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/determin.pdf

 

Certain semiautomatic assault rifles that failed the 1989 sporting purposes test were

modified to remove all of the military configuration features, except for the ability to

accept a detachable magazine. Significantly, most of these modified rifles not only still

have the ability to accept a detachable magazine but, more specifically, still have the

ability to accept a large capacity military magazine. It appears that only one of the

current study rifles, the VEPR caliber .308 (an AK47 variant), does not have the ability to

accept a large capacity military magazine and, therefore, is not an LCMM rifle. Based on

the standard developed in 1989, these modified rifles were found not to fall within the

semiautomatic assault rifle type and were found to meet the sporting purposes test.

Accordingly, these rifles were approved for import into the United States.

 

I think you are still getting confused by all the assault weapons ban stuff still floating around. the high capacity mag is no longer a prohibited feature for imported guns or any guns for that matter. the new test according to the ATF rulings is the "large capacity military magazines", which the saiga clearly passes as it cannot use a military magazine of any type as it is imported.

 

There is still a lot of myth and jailhouse lawyer crap out there and no-one other than myself has presented the evidence in an accessible and easy to understand format. most "experts" dont back up thier assertions with anything as all.

 

If you can prove that I'm wrong I'll change my tune, but it better be information from an official source and not some 6 year old quote from an NRA website. I've presented firsthand evidence to back up my claim, I want the real deal from you too.

Edited March 8, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[Vultite 57]

I don't believe this even up for argumentation....if FFL holders can't configure guns that way, i wouldn't argue with a liscence holder...i say, do what you want, if you get questioned, let us know how it works out. we'll make sure Butterfingers goes easy on you the first night. I'm not sure if you could convince a jury of your peers the difference between a 30rd "military" mag and a 30rd surefire mag, they would say its the same thing, works the same way, wtf is the difference? you can hunt with any mag, as long as it holds 1 round, but hi cap mag which is anything over 10 rounds for a rifle, is considered unsporting and "military" so, even though its a opinion, you can be the tester if you want. I'd rather play it safe and not get a probe up my ass

Edited March 9, 2008 by Vultite

[gunrunner123 0]

I apologize in advance if this is out of context ,,,,

 

Besides me notifing ATF of my modified or unmodified status is there anyway that ATF would be aware that I had a modified saiga? Does Tromix or any other gunsmith service have to or are they required to notify of the changes made to specific serial#..?

 

 

Ken

[nalioth 405]

I apologize in advance if this is out of context ,,,,

 

Besides me notifing ATF of my modified or unmodified status is there anyway that ATF would be aware that I had a modified saiga? Does Tromix or any other gunsmith service have to or are they required to notify of the changes made to specific serial#..?

 

 

Ken

No, when you screw up badly and they seize your house and property is when it is usually found out. Maybe if you're involved in a traffic stop gone badly.

 

There have been no prosecutions of 922r violations that anyone has heard of, but I'm sure that if you screw up badly enough, they'll add 'em to your list if they can.

Edited March 9, 2008 by nalioth

[Jack A Sol 2]

I don't believe this even up for argumentation....if FFL holders can't configure guns that way, i wouldn't argue with a liscence holder...i say, do what you want, if you get questioned, let us know how it works out. we'll make sure Butterfingers goes easy on you the first night. I'm not sure if you could convince a jury of your peers the difference between a 30rd "military" mag and a 30rd surefire mag, they would say its the same thing, works the same way, wtf is the difference? you can hunt with any mag, as long as it holds 1 round, but hi cap mag which is anything over 10 rounds for a rifle, is considered unsporting and "military" so, even though its a opinion, you can be the tester if you want. I'd rather play it safe and not get a probe up my ass

 

 

If you are right and I am wrong then ALL UNMODIFIED SAIGAS ARE ILLEGAL!! This would be a fact if there was no distinction made legally between the surefires and regular AK mags. If what you are so sure of is true then every saiga would be "capable of using large capacity military magazines" and thus would be banned from importation. There is a clear distinction made in the law and ATF rulings when it comes to the wording and intent of the LCMM capability ban. these guns were approved for import in spite of the exisstance of these mags, therefore the .gov has admittted that it is legal to use these mags in unmodified guns!!

 

It's real easy to take the cop out and say "it's your ass dude, do what ya want" If you want to live your life not doing things because they MAY be illegal then thats fine with me, but dont dismiss my argument, that I have thoroughly backed with rulings and law, as invalid because of your fear issues with the .gov.

Edited March 10, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[vjor 2]

jack a sol has a really good point there, yes as a mag was made or desing for the sole use

on the saiga rifle not as a military gun his point is valid.

 

I was looking into it my self as much as I hate not military specs mags, the point is that the

Saiga mags will work on the saiga gun been a sporter rifle and were made specially for

that gun in particular, leaving the use of them on military weapons out of the box.

 

I was asking some one that does Pro work about it, well been that he got a letter

from the ATF after he ask them about he making the guns into a military weapon

look alike. He told me that he send the letter to the ATF to ok his guns and use of

American made parts only because he uses military mags on his guns, changing

the gun to accept any mags no just the ones made for the rifle in sporterize form

do changing the rifle to take any high cap mag. No just the ones made for the gun itself

or design to work on that gun in particular. Opps I will ad that the changing of the

gun itself from sporting to AKM rifle have to be look into, use of American parts.

 

Well I have preach about 922 and other stuff, but I have been checking this too lately about the

use of high cap mag on a Saiga been that the mag was design to work

on the gun itself and the mags was solely design for that gun as is imported

into the country. That little built in ramp on the front of the mags can change

a lot how the ATF look into the use of high cap on the rifle as it is cause the design

is made for the Saiga not other AK rifles, the Saiga been a sporter rifle on its own.

 

 

In few if a mag is made for the sole use on a particular gun and design for that gun in particular

things can change a lot, but who knows if the ATF make a rule and change stuff, but like I say

jack a sol has a point as we stand right now to this day at this time 3/10/2008.

 

In few anything say about 922 goes out the door unless you change your gun to take

any other rifle high cap mags or change the gun into a AKM look a like . Or the ATF pass a ruling on the use of mags design for the Saiga specifically.

 

 

The world make no sense lately, and things change and I am on my way to get me a cigar.

take the above post as you like it, do I care about people using compliant parts on there guns

nope, do I use compliant parts on my guns yup but I use any military mags and my guns

don't look sporterized any more.

 

Carlo.

 

PS: It dont mean that you can change a AK mag into a Saiga mag, the mag have to be

born as a Saiga mag if it is a high cap mag or go American parts if use any other

AK mags.

Edited March 10, 2008 by vjor

[RangerM9 1]

I don't believe this even up for argumentation....if FFL holders can't configure guns that way, i wouldn't argue with a liscence holder...i say, do what you want, if you get questioned, let us know how it works out. we'll make sure Butterfingers goes easy on you the first night. I'm not sure if you could convince a jury of your peers the difference between a 30rd "military" mag and a 30rd surefire mag, they would say its the same thing, works the same way, wtf is the difference? you can hunt with any mag, as long as it holds 1 round, but hi cap mag which is anything over 10 rounds for a rifle, is considered unsporting and "military" so, even though its a opinion, you can be the tester if you want. I'd rather play it safe and not get a probe up my ass

 

 

If you are right and I am wrong then ALL UNMODIFIED SAIGAS ARE ILLEGAL!! This would be a fact if there was no distinction made legally between the surefires and regular AK mags. If what you are so sure of is true then every saiga would be "capable of using large capacity military magazines" and thus would be banned from importation. There is a clear distinction made in the law and ATF rulings when it comes to the wording and intent of the LCMM capability ban. these guns were approved for import in spite of the exisstance of these mags, therefore the .gov has admittted that it is legal to use these mags in unmodified guns!!

 

It's real easy to take the cop out and say "it's your ass dude, do what ya want" If you want to live your life not doing things because they MAY be illegal then thats fine with me, but dont dismiss my argument, that I have thoroughly backed with rulings and law, as invalid because of your fear issues with the .gov.

 

 

is your contention that now with Surefire mags all saigas can have high cap mags without modification and are thus illegal?....the guns were approved for importation long before the surefire mags came along.....prior to that you had to modify the gun to use standard AK mags. I would worry now that with hi caps (which require no modification to the gun) available the ATF may revisit the saiga issue and ban them completely....

 

but as imported, they are legal. Just as a 870 shotgun is legal for sale, it is when the user modifies it to become a SBS without a stamp that it becomes illegal. (same as putting a surefire 30rnder on a stock saiga. Jesus, swap out one part and use surefires and you are legal no matter what......just do it and cover your ass.

 

As for talking to the cop.....he's going to leave that legal shit to the DA's office and not give you another thought.

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

That's not what the current ATF rulings state at all!! Back up your assertion with some links, or rulings.

 

Please read the thread.

 

The post immediately prior to yours contains a letter from the ATF stating exactly that. It is only one of many letters from the ATF that have been posted on this forum. The members of this forum did not just invent their position on 922r because they want to be junior internet Perry Masons. It has come from several direct correspondances with the ATF. I suggest the folks over at warrior talk do the same thing. There is a huge differance between, "I read the applicable laws", and "I asked the authoritative body for their interpretation and enforcement of the applicable laws." This smells of the usual income tax garbage.. that is, people who have read just enough of the law to get themsleves into serious trouble.

 

Legal technicality: Now that you have been informed of the letter from the ATF you are considered to by duly advised of the legalities involved with this particular firearm and modification and can no longer protest ignorance or misunderstanding if prosecuted for this matter. The internet is a bitch that way.

 

In case you want another:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19536

 

If you are right and I am wrong then ALL UNMODIFIED SAIGAS ARE ILLEGAL!!

No, you are wrong again.

 

In the ATFs own words, determination of suitability for sporting purposes will be made on a case by case basis as weapons are applied for importation.

 

Determinations regarding the suitability for sporting purposes are made on a

case-by-case base and often will require review by the Firearms Technology

Branch.

 

This means that you can not make a simple blanket application of previous determinations in order to decalare, yourself, that a weapon is in a legal configuration. The import configuration of the Saiga is the approved, legal, configuration. Removing it from that configuration (hi-capacity magazines) is when 922r begins to apply. Yes, that does mean the ATF has a large amount of discretion when making a determination.

 

In case you want to keep arguing this.. how about a court ruling?

 

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...DC/005409a.html

 

The long, and short answer is... The Saiga was approved for import without hi-capacity magazines. Adding hi-capacity magazines removes them from the approved import configurations and thus makes 922r applicable, requiring parts number compliance.

[nalioth 405]

You guys are all missing the point here:

 

The Master Molder mag will not work in the .223/7.62x39 Saiga w/o modification.

 

It was not designed for the Saiga, but by chance, has a thicker upper 'lip' that provides reasonable function (after mag catch/latch mods) w/o a bullet guide. The bulgarian waffle mags are also known to have the 'thick lip'.

Edited March 10, 2008 by nalioth

[vjor 2]

Yes you guys have a valid point too, naliot you right, like I say in my post have to be design

for the Saiga specifically and you cant mod the gun in any way to take the mag

forget abut pistol grips or feed ramp or anything. And yes the gun as it comes

is proof enough of sporterizing purpose but the gun cant be mod at all, as right now

the only gun that have see that will take a saiga specifically mag is the Saiga.223

because surefire mag made specifically made for that gun that I have seen

and will don't work OK in any other gun unless the other gun is mod

to take it, cause of the ramp on the mag itself. I don't know

of the .308 cause I haven't test any yet.

 

ClickClickD'oh you are right and have valid points there too, one thing I have

look into is that the Saiga as it comes from factory has no one military specs

and proof of sporterize purpose, not like other guns that have come

with pistol grips of other features consider by the ATF military style configuration

or can take ready available military mags on the market with out mods

to the gun.

 

If a month ago any one would told me that I can use high caps

on a Saiga with out American parts, I will tell them they were nuts

but things have change a little. Any way we are here to exchange ideas

and points that is what a gun forum supposed to be for .

 

Man I still put American parts on my guns no matter what but

is valid points all over.

Edited March 10, 2008 by vjor

[tman2007sc 0]

Edited March 10, 2008 by tman2007sc

[Jack A Sol 2]

Edited March 10, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[tman2007sc 0]

Edited March 10, 2008 by tman2007sc

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

[tman2007sc 0]

Plain and simple.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/assault/pdf/exec.pdf

The whole point of the 1998 ban is to prevent more high capacity rifles from being imported.

They do not differenciate between high capacity military or high capacity nonmilitary magazine.

The 1998 ban is based on the intent of the 1994 ban which also bans all high capacity mags.

Jack write the ATF yourself and post the letter they send back. I will bet the farm that they will, once again, state that you cannot insert any kind of high capacity magazine into a currently sold stock Saiga factory rifle. Be sure to clearly write if it would be legal to use a 30 round surefire (non-military) magazine in a stock SAiga rifle. Several of us already know what they will respond. But, for the interest of putting this same topic (which comes up every month) to rest, write the letter and please post the answer they provide on this board.

[Jack A Sol 2]

Edited March 11, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

Please show me the determination for import by ATF which states that it cannot use ANY high capacity magazines then.

 

It's pretty clear to me that you are unable to grasp the concept that there is a difference legally, by the ATF rulings I have linked and the ones you have linked, between a military magazine and a non military magazine.

 

The state department and the ATF have already made all the determinations we need by specifically approving for import the Saiga as we get it from russia. There simply is not a current ruling or law (that you have shown me) that says you can not insert a non military ( like the surefire plastic) mag into a bone stock saiga rifle or shotgun. if there is then please show me somewhere where in CURRENT LAW it specifically states that ALL high capacity mags are verboten, and does not limit the ruling to LCMM military mags!! it just aint there.

 

I dont know what else I can say to help you understand the difference between an AK mag and a Surefire mag. they just aint the same thing legally. the surefire was designed solely for a sporting weapon and THAT FACT makes all the difference in the world.

 

Look, if you want to keep believing that the ATF is going to make a distinction between a Bulgy mag and a Surefire mag then be my guest and follow tman2007sc's advice and send the ATF a letter asking for clarification.

 

Please post it here when you get the response.

 

It's no skin off my back if you persist in making illegal modifications to firearms based on a faulty pretense.

 

But hey, I could be wrong. The ATF could say it's okay. But my guess is that they are going to say that a hi-capacity magazine deisgned to be used in a rifle they have already determined to be of a military type is a military magazine no matter what the manufacture says that it is for.

 

If you do get that letter, I'd make photo-copies of it and carry it every where your rifle goes.

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

This may save you some time writing the ATF.

 

Large Capacity Military Magazine defined:

 

http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/suitabil.pdf

The ability to accept a detachable large capacity magazine that was originally

designed and produced for one of the following military assault rifles: AK47, FNFAL,

HK91 or 93, SIG SG550, or Uzi.

 

And yes, the Saiga is, according to the ATF, and AK47 variant:

 

http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/exh2.pdf

 

So, the argument that the Surefire magazine is designed for a sporting rifle won't fly with the ATF since according to their own publications it was designed for an AK47 variant weapon and thus falls under the classification as a LCMM.

[Jack A Sol 2]

This may save you some time writing the ATF.

 

Large Capacity Military Magazine defined:

 

http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/suitabil.pdf

The ability to accept a detachable large capacity magazine that was originally

designed and produced for one of the following military assault rifles: AK47, FNFAL,

HK91 or 93, SIG SG550, or Uzi.

 

And yes, the Saiga is, according to the ATF, and AK47 variant:

 

http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/exh2.pdf

 

So, the argument that the Surefire magazine is designed for a sporting rifle won't fly with the ATF since according to their own publications it was designed for an AK47 variant weapon and thus falls under the classification as a LCMM.

 

1- the surefire plastic was not designed or used for the AK47 nor can it be used in an AK47. the mags are not interchangeable.

2-just because the saiga is an AK variant doesnt make it a "military assault rifle". The ATF has determined that the Saiga is a SPORTING rifle because of it's absence of military features.

 

I see where you are going with that, but you are not quite there yet, the LCMM definition is still hanging you up.. you are getting closer

Edited March 11, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[nalioth 405]

1- the surefire plastic was not designed or used for the AK47 nor can it be used in an AK47. the mags are not interchangeable.

Wait, what?

[soberups 1]

I called the ATF and I also wrote them a letter, I will try to find the darn thing and post it here, but it said on no uncertain terms that it is NOT legal to stick a hi-cap mag...even a US-made one-- into a Saiga unless you get your parts down to 10 or less. I have it, in writing, on ATF letterhead. I'm not interested in paying a lawyer to prove them wrong, its a lot easier to just bolt on a Tapco modified stock for $99 and call it good.

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

1- the surefire plastic was not designed or used for the AK47 nor can it be used in an AK47. the mags are not interchangeable.

Yes, the ATF considers the Saiga to be an AK47 variant, therefore the Surefire magazine, according to the ATF, was designed to be used in an AK47 type rifle.

 

 

2-just because the saiga is an AK variant doesnt make it a "military assault rifle". The ATF has determined that the Saiga is a SPORTING rifle because of it's absence of military features.

 

Do you want to read that second link again. The ATF clearly classifies the Saiga as an AK variant, and the ATF says that all AK variants are classified as miltary assualt rifles.

 

How much more clear does it have to be for you?