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hi-cap mags and compliance....different interpretation


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I called the ATF and I also wrote them a letter, I will try to find the darn thing and post it here, but it said on no uncertain terms that it is NOT legal to stick a hi-cap mag...even a US-made one-- into a Saiga unless you get your parts down to 10 or less. I have it, in writing, on ATF letterhead. I'm not interested in paying a lawyer to prove them wrong, its a lot easier to just bolt on a Tapco modified stock for $99 and call it good.

 

Was this letter written before the surefires or FBMG mags came out? if so then I doubt it would be able to address this specific situation. It is fairly clear by all rulings that you cannot insert an AK mag into a stock saiga. there is no disputing this. what we are specifically discussing are magazines made to fit the saiga sporting rifle that have never been AK mags (modified to fit) and are 100% new components solely designed for the saiga sporting rifle.

 

the pattern we consistently see in letters and rulings is the ATF quoting the law and stating that it is not legal to modify a rifle to accept hi cap military mags. we have yet to see anything that says you cannot INSERT a mag made for the gun into it because it is hi cap.

 

guys, This is a classic example of an interrupted thinking process. 'D' comes after 'A' in the alphabet. you are forgetting that 'B' and 'C' are in the middle and have to be addressed before you get to 'D'. You are missing a link in the chain here. you are skipping the intervening steps. It's like me telling you that if you run a red light you will pay a fine!! you are convieniently leaving out that there has to be a cop there, he has to catch you, you cant talk your way out of it, and that you still have to be determined guilty in court.

 

the assumption here is that the saiga is an imported gun and thus if it has a hicap mag it's illegal. you are missing all the steps of the litmus test, like the saiga is NOT an AK, the surefire and FBMG are NOT military mags, the gun is NOT being modified.

 

once you understand these critical points you will see how important a fact this is. If the arguement you guys make is correct then it threatens the importation and use of every semi-auto mag fed gun that has ever been imported. ALL OF THEM!! this would be a huge blow to the firearms industry and would instantly create tens of thousands 922 r criminals as "owners of firearms capable of accepting LCMM's". lets hope that your arguement is incorrect.

 

just in case you are wondering, the reason above is also the reason why I have not submitted this question to the ATF NOR WOULD I SUGGEST DOING SO. if they come back with a ruling saying that the fbmg's cannot be inserted into a stock saiga and would be a violation we would be looking at a MAJOR upset to importation and sales that would financially and legally effect thousands of people and businesses to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars. so DONT GO THERE.

Edited by Jack A Sol
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...you are missing all the steps of the litmus test, like the saiga is NOT an AK

Yes, the Saiga is an AK-47 type rifle according to the ATF.

 

Why do you keep ignoring the plain fact that the ATF classifies the Saiga as and AK-47 type firearm?

 

...the surefire and FBMG are NOT military mags...
Yes, according to the ATF, they are since they were designed to be used in an AK-47 type weapon.

 

...once you understand these critical points you will see how important a fact this is. If the arguement you guys make is correct then it threatens the importation and use of every semi-auto mag fed gun that has ever been imported. ALL OF THEM!! this would be a huge blow to the firearms industry and would instantly create tens of thousands 922 r criminals as "owners of firearms capable of accepting LCMM's".

Again, no it does not.

 

The ATF approves firearms that can accept LCMMs all the time as long as they are imported in a configuration that does not have an LCMM. They can then be later modified (and yes, sticking a non-OEM mag in a gun is a modification according to the ATF) to accept a LCMM as long as they remain 922r compliant. This is why Century has to hack and chop imported guns to sell them in the configuration they do.

 

 

 

just in case you are wondering, the reason above is also the reason why I have not submitted this question to the ATF NOR WOULD I SUGGEST DOING SO. if they come back with a ruling saying that the fbmg's cannot be inserted into a stock saiga and would be a violation we would be looking at a MAJOR upset to importation and sales that would financially and legally effect thousands of people and businesses to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars. so DONT GO THERE.

 

 

From a legal standpoint, you just committed a major sin. You in essence said, "don't ask because they will say it's illegal".. thereby admitting that you know it's illegal.

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You guys are having a lot of fun.

 

The courts are having a lot of fun. I love reading decisions that are based on lies. "the director has determined that military style weapons are the weapons of choice...." . And the proof is that there were more ATF traces. What does that have to do with crime? Who were the lame-ohs that Springfield Armory used for attorneys?

Multi-Gun shooting competitions are not sporting use.

Readily adaptable means "particularly suitable" and not "readily adaptable". And I really like the logic: If "readily adaptable" were interpreted literally, then all guns would be importable.

 

In the mean time, YouTube is showing hundreds of examples of shooters having fun. When are Senators going to complain to the president.. Oh that's right, when ObamaHillary become Commander in Chief.

 

I did see an BATFE (is that now the official acronym?) agent at my local gun show. I'm a really old guy, and this is a first for me.

 

Jerry Spence only charges a couple of million to get you out of trouble. The penalty is 10 years, $250,000.

 

By the way, what is the legal definition of "trigger housing", I thought it was a trigger guard, until somebody posted a picture of a trigger in an assembly. (which of course included a "trigger guard" which was part of the assembly.)

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Well, Nixon is the man. what he says, goes. I suppose if we keep bothering him with this question that sooner or later the state dept will stop allowing import of the saiga and may even do a recall or destruction requirement. this pandoras box has been opened and it prolly cant be shut.

 

I expect we can say goodbye to the saiga with this ruling.

 

 

look guys. the first fucking thing you should know as a gun owner is that the ATF aint there to help you. they are there to enforce and make rules. furthermore, they have a long and sordid history of making up rules and contradicting themselves. If you ask them a question it's always gonna be ruled in the strictest of manners against you. period.

 

shit like this is exactly the thing you dont want to bring up to thier attention and MAKE them address is. If it is not addressed then everybody avoids addressing it and we go about our merry lives.

 

Now because of one members need to feel loved, we have a ruling that basically states the Saiga is able to accept a LCMM and as a result even inserting a 8 round magazine qualifies legally as "assembling a non sporting weapon from more than 10 imported parts"

It was fucking stupid to ask them and would be even worse to make them do it on paper publically. I've specifically outlined WHY asking them is a bad Idea but apparently winning an internet arguement is more important than our ability to get russian rifles.

 

If it will stop you fuckin retards from bringing this up with the ATF any further then I will gladly admit that I have lost this arguement. I will even say that my arguement never had any merit, but if the Saiga gets banned from import due to this issue, then I'm gonna want to kick somebodies fuckin ass, and I'm pretty sure theres gonna be about 1000 other saiga owners who will want a piece too.

Edited by Jack A Sol
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further more it would mean that the stock Saiga was illegal as it stood because it had the CAPABILITY to accept LCMM's.

 

A stock Saiga doesn't really have the capability to accept LCMM's, IMO. You have to modify it to do so (bullet guide, grind mag catch).

 

But it doesn't really matter. I don't see what the fuss is about. Everyone can do what they want. If you want to cover your ass, with bringing down your foreign parts count, great. If you don't care to do so, great. Who cares? I, for one, will bring my parts count down to 10 or less. Will I get busted if I don't? Who knows. To each his own.

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I expect we can say goodbye to the saiga with this ruling.

 

 

I suggest you no longer try to convince other people to break the law

on a public forum. I do not think Mac C wants this kind of thing on his

forum. Also, a ruling was not made because of a clearification request.

You are highly mistaken. The sky is not falling. Don't be a drama

queen. Stop "trolling." You got way more to worry about with the

upcoming assault weapon ban that is already worded to ban saigas

by name. I also do not think other posters were trying to purposely

argue with you just to argue. Many people know exactly how the ATF

feels about modifications. Alot of people thought the AGP mags were

going to be the end of the S-12. Lets not rush to conclusions. There is

already to much drama on this forum. We do not need more drama.

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Well, Nixon is the man. what he says, goes. I suppose if we keep bothering him with this question that sooner or later the state dept will stop allowing import of the saiga and may even do a recall or destruction requirement. this pandoras box has been opened and it prolly cant be shut.

I expect we can say goodbye to the saiga with this ruling.

A Saiga... currently imported in its "sporting" configuration with a low-cap mag...is no different than a WASR-10 with a low cap mag. Century imports the WASRS as legal, 10-round limited sporting rifles, just like RAA is doing with the Saiga. They hog out the magwell to fit a 30 rounder, and swap out enough US-made FCG parts to get the parts count below 10. In other words...they do a "conversion". If you bought an unconverted WASR and found a way to cram a hicap into it, it would violate 922r. If you bought an unconverted Saiga and crammed a hicap into it, it would also violate 922r. Same deal.

I fail to see how getting factual information about compliance is equal to "opening pandoras box". If we follow your logic to its ultimate conclusion, then SKS's will soon be banned also, since 30 round "duckbill" mags for them have been readily available for years and will pop right in with no modification either.

Edited by soberups
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Lets not rush to conclusions. There is already to much drama on this forum. We do not need more drama.

 

I agree with tman2007sc! Please, let's just stay civilized!

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This would essentially mean then that by inserting a magazine you are fundamentally modifying the gun in the eyes of the ATF.
Yes, changing the type of magazine in the weapon is modfying it. Just the same way that putting a magazine into a weapon is considered to be assemblying it.
this ruling, if it is as you state, basically just made all saiga's illegal dude.
No, this ruling has changed nothing.

 

Stock imported Saigas are still legal, and 922r compliant saigas are still legal. Oh, and sticking a hi-cap magazine in a non-922r compliant Saiga is still illegal.

 

Now because of one members need to feel loved, we have a ruling that basically states the Saiga is able to accept a LCMM and as a result even inserting a 8 round magazine qualifies legally as "assembling a non sporting weapon from more than 10 imported parts"
Again, no it doesn't. That is the approved import configuration of the firearm. You have to remove the firearm from the approved import configuration before the 922r parts count becomes applicable. You could have 20 imported parts on the firearm, as long as that is the approved import configuration.
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Now because of one members need to feel loved, we have a ruling that basically states the Saiga is able to accept a LCMM and as a result even inserting a 8 round magazine qualifies legally as "assembling a non sporting weapon from more than 10 imported parts"

It was fucking stupid to ask them and would be even worse to make them do it on paper publically. I've specifically outlined WHY asking them is a bad Idea but apparently winning an internet arguement is more important than our ability to get russian rifles.

I am sure that the ATF is well aware of the fact that an SKS can accept a 30-round aftermarket duckbill mag. If the ATF would outlaw Saigas because there are now 30-round mags that fit them, why wouldn't they have banned SKS's for the same reason? Those duckbills have been widely available from Cabela's, Natchez, Century etc for the last 20 years or so. How is a Surefire mag for a Saiga any different? Its up to the end user to be sure that whatever mag they choose is legal for their particular application.

Edited by soberups
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Now because of one members need to feel loved, we have a ruling that basically states the Saiga is able to accept a LCMM and as a result even inserting a 8 round magazine qualifies legally as "assembling a non sporting weapon from more than 10 imported parts"

It was fucking stupid to ask them and would be even worse to make them do it on paper publically. I've specifically outlined WHY asking them is a bad Idea but apparently winning an internet arguement is more important than our ability to get russian rifles.

I am sure that the ATF is well aware of the fact that an SKS can accept a 30-round aftermarket duckbill mag. If the ATF would outlaw Saigas because there are now 30-round mags that fit them, why wouldn't they have banned SKS's for the same reason? Those duckbills have been widely available from Cabela's, Natchez, Century etc for the last 20 years or so. How is a Surefire mag for a Saiga any different? Its up to the end user to be sure that whatever mag they choose is legal for their particular application.

I completely agree that since detachables have been commonly available for sks weapons there is not going to be a recall or confiscation of these. If it would of happened, it should have happened in the past 10 years since the high capacity import ban of 1998. However, neither were the sks weapons banned from import, nor was there a recall or any drastic measure. In the same way, high capacity Saiga rifle mags are not going to cause the end of the world. EAA imported them back in 2004 for a while. It did not cause any kind of major problem back in 2004 either. I don't think

there is anything that can be created in the USA that will endanger imported rifles.

The ATF hasn't even acted upon the Wraithmaker shotgun drum if that tells you much

about their current agressiveness to rule on something. I wouldn't hold my breath about losing

Saiga rifles due to an aftermarket magazine that they already knew about since they were first advertised in shotgun news nationally.

Edited by tman2007sc
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