Five Wisconsin hunters shot dead

[Bvamp 604]

well, Im sure you all are hearing the news about this guy that apparantly shot 5 guys dead, and wounded 3 others with "an assualt type weapon" out in wisconsin on sunday. heres the link for those who havent heard yet on CNN.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/11/22/hunters.slain/index.html

 

 

SaigaShooter posted this further down in this thread, and I wanted to put it up here where it was easily found by someone first visiting this thread:

 

Mr. Vangs statement can be read here: http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/frontpage/pegl.pdf

 

 

 

I had a few thoughts on this, of course. (ya'll should know me by now)

 

1 - it sure sounds like the guy that shot them might have been acting in self defense. if he had gone postal, where were the coup de grace shots to the head? and where was the shootout with police, and why was his gun not loaded when they grabbed him? I know here, if you get caught on someone's land in thier treestand, you will most likely be threatened with bodily harm, (hunters got a big pair on them as you all probably know, when they are out toting around thier guns in the woods, especially on thier own land) and a statement to such from a couple guys with deer guns would certainly be a case to act in such a manner, in my opinion.

 

2 - I find it difficult to believe that not one of the hunters shot this guy. there were 8 of them all together, in seperate groups, and they could have had a hunt of a lifetime. Man is the ultimate prey. I would have, or at least tried to, shoot him dead, myself, even if i were the last one to come to my friend's aid, especially if he were on my property. they would be picking his body parts out of the bushes. I mean, whyd the guys keep running up there to confront the guy if they werent going to pop him? what exactly were they planning on doing? asking the guy to stop? give me a break, they shoulda plugged the guy. these are country hunters we are talking about here, not some city gangbangers with 9mm's. I for one cannot believe they didnt shoot the guy. but like i said, someone probably tried to, and thats why there are 5 dead hunters. apparantly they threatened the wrong person with a rifle or fist.

 

the first two that were shot apparantly called for help, so maybe they are two of the three that werent killed, and we will hear some kind of two sided arguement in the future on this one. two guys with guns in the woods threatening you, or taking a swing at you, im sorry, it DOES CONSTITUTE A RIGHT TO SELF DEFENSE! and if they werent the ones killed, the guy wasnt trying to kill them. the other guys? well, maybe they ran up and shot at him, giving him further right to self defense. If I had to pop a couple of rednecks threatening me with guns and fists, and a bunch of thier buddies came running after me, I would probably do the same thing. I cant wait to hear details about this incident, myself. hopefully the guy was within his rights, and this isnt some crazy person with an AR15 hunting in the woods, doing as they please.

 

3 - I cant wait to see the fallout the liberals on the news taint this one with. I already smell that they arent conveying the whole story truthfully, and are tainting the story to make it look like some psychopath in the woods with an assault weapon. Im sorry, you have a right to defend yourself, if that was the case here, and to paint the guy as a nut outright is unjust and unconstitutional, and that is the very reason for me posting my thoughts here.

 

4 - do any of you country boys have any thoughts on this? (I know ya'll must)

 

5 - do any of you anti-gun folk out there that will find this thread searching for fodder for your own agendas on google have some thoughts? and before you say guns are bad, let me remind you first that the gun did not fall out of the tree and shoot 8 men in the woods. someone pulled the trigger.

Edited November 24, 2004 by Bvamp

[Verson 0]

HEY! if you notice picture on the link Bvamp put up, the police car almost looks like SaltPeters! well..... the color at anyrate! (haha)

[Bvamp 604]

We could only hope there were more honorable police out there like SaltPeter, Verson. It is truely a shame that there arent. If I were a rich type, I would try to get him to transfer into the local city dept here and teach these idiots here what a police officer really is.

 

Im suprised he hasnt posted anything about the guy that went postal in clearwater last week. maybe he was involved and cant comment on it? You would never guess that clearwater with its nice little pennisula beach area would be a crazy place like it is. I was robbed there myself and left for dead in the 90's...

[SaigaShooter 0]

I was watching the news lastnight, and was going to post about this, but fell asleep.

 

The man who did the shootings was denied permission to hunt on the land, then came back and took up a tree stand. he was asked to get out of the stand because he was on private property, and had been told that he could not be there, he refused by shooting the guy who asked him. The guy he shot had a radio and called his buddies. As they approached, he picked them off one by one. last I knew there were 5 dead and 3 in the hospital.

[Bvamp 604]

somehow i doubt they asked "nicely"

[Verson 0]

Aye! That he is.

 

I think that public needs to relearn again what police do. A police officers job is to enforce the law, which isnt what most people think. And why on earth could someone become mad and hateful to the police? I mean its not like they make the laws! We make the laws, and the police enforce them........ so what gives?

 

if we dont like the laws, should we not repell them?

 

 

that seems the the logical way to me.

*shrug*

[chris410 0]

Whole thing is pretty strange, really need more info on this one. I wouldnt be surprised to find out that the property owner asked the guy to get off the treestand and added "or I 'm gonna shoot you". Some good ole boys stumble on some foreign looking guy on their property and I'm sure they would threaten him.

However, I have to say I cant believe nobody shot the guy, but then a tree stand is quite a good vantage point to be firing from

But maybe he did just lose it and start killing people. I swear the liberals pay people to do it every time some major gun bill comes up (or expires).

Either way this is damaging to our cause.

[Bvamp 604]

Verson, I hate (yes, i said HATE) the CITY police here, because they twist the laws to do as they wish, and when you call them on it, will outright LIE to make you look stupid or charge you with some trumped up b.s. crime that they know you did not do, hopeing the crooked DA here will be able to convince you otherwise and scare you into pleading down to something.

 

chris410: he was walking away when he started shooting, says one witness. he turned and started firing. I bet you they called him a racial slur and fired into the air, and he thought his life was in jeapardy and opened up with his chineese SKS with the 20 rounder in it. like i said, I know how guys here would act to someone looking foreign and tresspassing, and Im already starting to think it was an act of percieved self-defense rather than temporary insanity. I guess we will find out what our fascist government decides happened.

 

Like i said, i am ABSOLUTELY SURE someone (backwoods country white boys in a group mind you) uttered a racial comment and a threat, and maybe even fired a shot into the air to boot. I know PLENTY of guys that would do that very thing to a foregner tresspassing on thier land trying to shoot thier prized buck they waited all year to plug. and IF that is what happened, the guy was not only right, but it was a good thing he had a quick-release scope on an SKS with the high cap mag. he would be 100% in the right, even if he unknowingly tresspassed.

[G O B 3,516]

Bvamp It dosen't sound like self defence when noone returned fire. And one of those shot was the property owner. If I tell you to leave my property and then I find you there again--I can gurantee that I will use derrogarity epithets,and expletives.It does NOT constitute self defence to shoot someone when YOU are the treasspasser!

 

On another note the washington post article called the weapon "--a high-powered SKS assault weapon" They justy HAVE to get that shit in don't they!

 

G O B

[Bvamp 604]

they did return fire. and the guy was directed to what he thought was public hunting land, got lost on top of it, and was being chased out of a good spot on what he THOUGHT was public land by some rednecks who most likely uttered a racial slur and fired a warning shot or told the guy they would shoot him out of the stand if he didnt come down NOW.

 

you like that SKS b.s. right? he had an empty 20 round mag in it too, the police said.

 

if the guy was being aggressive and not trying to run (which if he was 40 yards off, and turned and started shooting, wouldnt YOU if you heard a gunshot?) , how come he wasnt hit when they returned fire? I bet they shot into the air, and had to give a reason why some rounds were fired off. nut or no, if you shot my friends or kids, you would die. it wouldnt matter at that point if i were hit, because i would make the shot good. the chances that a bunch of backwoods good american rednecks up in wisconsin where the american militants and racists THRIVE for a LONG TIME NOW asked a chinaman in thier deer stand nicely to leave after the guy says back that he isnt leaving (remember the guy thinks its public land at this point) are very VERY close to NULL. theres almost no way. people in those parts not only dont like outsiders, but dont like city boys or foreigners either. ask some next time yer out that way. its how people are there. they said something REAL nasty and probably threatened the guy, when they shoulda called the cops or game warden right then and there. I hate to have this stance on this, but I do.

 

as I have said in other threads....I wish there were more honorable police like saltpeter out there. this guy doesnt have an attourney present right now (its been more than 24 hours, they are using psycho tactics on him Im sure), and when the question was put to the cop, he kinda just stared off into space and said no after a LONG pause. even if he IS a nut and guilty as sin, the cops are abusing his rights. an honorable cop wouldnt do that. the poor nut or lost chinaman or however it turns out is having his rights abused illegally. there is no honor in that, regardless of why.

 

I am sorry that i have this stance, and to have to speak in this manner, but I feel that I must for some reason.

 

The families and victims, whoever they might be, will be in my prayers tonight.

 

its a shame regardless of what actually happened, and I hope you all at least read what im saying and can see how i might be seeing it, even if you are convinced of otherwise. If im right and this guy goes to the chair, we are done as gun owners and americans.

[SaigaShooter 0]

The thing is, he was told he was on private land, and was given directions back to the road. on his way there he found a tree stand and occupied it.

 

Then he was discovered there, and again was told to get. he came down from the stand walked 40 yards turned and fired, then he waited for more guys to come up from the camp and killed them too. That is not self defense. He ran out of ammo in his 20 round magazine (which is illegal to use for hunting in WI) fled, and ran into some others whom he told he was lost. They led him to the road were he was arrested.

 

I'm sure the fact the the guy is laotian (pronounced lay-ocean) didn't play into his favor. And there most certainly were slurs used, but i doub't they would have fired a warning shot into the air or at the guy, after all he did after all have an SKS.

[SaltPeter 6]

I am not going to speculate on this one, because it would be Monday morning quarterbacking. I was not there, and I'm not there investigating so I have no idea what really happened. Remember, what you've heard so far has been given to you by the media, so take it with a heavy grain of salt. After all, how accurately did they describe the guy's gun? A "high-powered SKS assault weapon"? Come on!

 

Obviously, the police have a huge crime scene to comb through. They have to figure out who fired first, second, and so-on. Then they have to figure out all the trajectories. They have to interview everybody involved and then verify their statements with the physical evidence. They will probably even interview the suspect's friends, family, and coworkers to see how he's been acting for the past few weeks. Remember all of that before you make up your minds, fellas.

 

By they way, if you're talking about that guy who went postal here last week, it was a Radio Shack in St. Petersburg, not Clearwater (although St. Pete and Clearwater are neighboring cities). That happened in mall where my girlfriend sometimes works (at the Starbuck's). What amazes me when something like that happens here is, with all the concealed carry permit holders in this state, no one is ever packing heat. You'd think that every guy that tries something like that would get his head blown off the minute he draws.

[Bvamp 604]

saltpeter, as always I appreciate any and all comments you have and do make here. also, you as an investigator should know the chances of finding a round fired into the air at the outset is about none, IF that is the case. the guy wasnt hit by a dozen hunters? come on now. people dropping left and right, and the guy wasnt hit? how many rounds were fired is what I want to know, and out of which guns. I can somehow see someone popping one into the air after a heated arguement that they won because the guy wasnt moving off fast enough. it is a reasonable case, unfortunately.

 

I have been scouring all the sources I can for info, and its just looking like there is more to it than some psycho going nuts on some hunters to me. any and all posts like this one here will get attention while its hot off the presses, and that is why I am saying as much as I can at this time. this is going to be one of those deciding factors in new legislation. it will definately be in the back of any politician's mind for a while when they vote on guns and 2nd amendmant rights and things like privacy and property and such, regardless of the outcome. (hunters even in the backcountry here apparantly wont or cant step up and defend themselves, so why let us all have guns if we wont use our right to defend ourselves, like what we always all say as an excuse to keep our 2nd amendmant right in the first place.)

 

my mind is far from made up, just trying to voice the other side of what might have happened, just the same as the media and others I am sure are speculating in the other direction. no matter what, the guy still has rights. he should have been charged and given a lawyer when they got his tag # from someone with a bullet in their shoulder, not next week when they get what they can out of him under duress. this is not honorable conduct for a police officer SP, not honorable at all, if you ask me, let alone legal. nut or no, the guy is traumatised and susceptable to influence and the police know this and are abusing his miranda rights. they must be trained by my city police here, as they are violating the crap out of that man's miranda rights right now, regardless of his sanity or guilt. as an honorable police officer, not only do i suspect that you agree with that, but I also know you would never speak against one or any of your fellow officers. that is part of what makes you the cop that you are....im not kissing up to you, im telling you how it is.

 

yeh, they said clearwater up here. and you are right. just like in this incident, WHY DO PEOPLE OWN GUNS IF THEY WONT USE THEM WHEN NEEDED? it makes me freakin sick. sick to all end. another lost testimony to the armed civilian.

 

like you said, i wasnt there, and i dont know what actually happened and i doubt i ever will know. what i do know is there is what both sides say what happened, and what REALLY happened.

 

again, i have to stress that im not taking either side. I feel for the victims and families. any way you look at it it is a shame and awful. however, i also feel for the guy that either way is having his rights being abused, that either had to kill in self defense or that was insane enough at the time to do such an act in such circumstances to other fellow human beings, let alone some that shared the belief in our right to a firearm, our rights to put food in our mouths, and our right to be in the land god made for all men while doing so.

 

again im sorry if my thoughts anger anyone reading this, but even ted bundy and charles manson has/had rights too. and we dont even know what happened yet, and probably never will. i have a feeling the guy is screwed even if my scenario i put forward is the truth. he will still fry because of his rights being violated NOW. he should have a damn lawyer.

[Guest Guest]

Country boy reply- Bettcha He was a poacher and got caught. He shot every to cover his tracks. OR he is just plain crazy.

 

BVAMP- Very few white country boys are racist anymore. Must would like to teach the joys of hunting to other racial groups.

[Bigfoot Wallace 0]

that was me.

 

forgot to log in

[Bvamp 604]

I know very few are. its the older generation that was, and often still is. Im just trying to put the unaddressed "other scenario" up there for people to think about before they say STRING EM UP! before considering there may have been a reason. and like i said, the guy, even if he did go postal, has rights too.

 

if he was a poacher, howd they look up his info with the deer tag on his back one of the people that got shot wrote down and still not comment that his tag was expired?

[Bvamp 604]

well, today, another of the men that was shot died.

 

also, interestingly, as I have been saying, the guy is saying he was shot AT first. sounds like someone fired one over the guys shoulder.

 

question, theres 5 guys with guns cursing at you and threatening you, and as you are walking away, a bullet zings a few feet over your head. that is a felony in my area, and you can make a citizen's arrest any time you witness a felonious act happen here. what do you do? do you run and hope you dont get shot? do you get mad and turn and start yelling at them? or do you take your scope off and use iron sights like you are taught in the army and start shooting back? if so, who do you aim for? the one on the left? the one in the middle? the one holding the gun?

 

bunch of brass balled white guys thinking they can do and say to whomever they want whatever they want. sure does appear like it to me. they all didnt hit the guy because they were trying to shoot him with scopes at close range. the guy would be dead if he hadnt have taken the scope off the SKS. I CANT WAIT to see how this turns out.

 

the govt. will have him executed probably as an example of what they will start doing to us for acting in self defense. expect an example to be made out of this guy.

 

racial slur or other threat of bodily harm + gun shot over your head == right to defend yourself

 

im sorry, this is how it looks to me. like i said, uncle sam is going to make an example out of this guy, regardless of how much, if at all, he was in the right.

[Gaddis 1,689]

Umm, it's my understanding (according to the new news reports coming out) that the shooter in question was a well known loose cannon (been in trouble already for at least two domestic abuse issues)), and if all the current *GUN LAWS* (as they stand now) would have worked as they are supposed to, he shouldn't have even been in posession of said firearm.

 

So take that Brady campaign.

 

You'd make a great public defender though, Bvamp!

[SaigaShooter 0]

Well, I was reading the local paper, (the Wausau Daily Herald) and it turns out only one of the eight victims had a gun with them. Mr. Vang says they watched him walk away then surrounded him, then they let him go, then they fired a round into the dirt, thus Mr. Vang killed 6 people in self defense, hell he even waited for then to show up so he could defend himself. Also the Police misidentified the rifle as a Saiga SKS, looks like were screwed now. Also, there is no death penalty in wisconsin.

 

Mr. Vangs statement can be read here: http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/frontpage/pegl.pdf

 

EDIT: the link should work now.

Edited November 24, 2004 by SaigaShooter

[Bvamp 604]

that serial # is a saiga alright. we should expect some nice visitors here soon. I had that in the back of my mind actually when i first heard and saw the rifle case and the cop say "assault type of weapon". wait till the media or liberal get a load of us

 

looks like a case of self defense to me, also looks like a racial slur was said a bit, he was threatened and was clearly in the right to fire at least the FIRST shots at the guy with the gun, as well as anyone going for the gun when the guy went down. I cant see why anyone else wouldnt be scared shitless at that point either and make a bad judgement call on who was intending to do what to whom. the guy sounds like he prevented a fox hunt of himself, or at least was thinking that in his mind at the time. also, the two that drove up on the quad with the gun that unshouldered it that he shot was a clear indication of self-defense at that point as well. when you hunt people, you should think first before driving up to within range of them without cover.

 

expect the guy to hang, and noone to investigate anyone for a racial crime against vang. say bye bye to your self defense rights, or at least in part. they are going to have a doosey with this one i think.

 

im sorry for the early comments about the wisconsin sherriff. apparantly they do have a great deal of honor and respect for people's rights, or at least claim to. I dont believe vang would have changed his mind and made a statement if they had not been honorable to the guy.

[ATD 2]

I sent a complaint to CBS about them calling a SKS an assault rifle.

 

What ever happened there is bad enough as it is, we don't need people in the Media calling a rifle something its not.

[Bvamp 604]

hmmmm........its funny how vang says he shot the guy with the only gun first, and that gun was found by the body of someone else whom vang says he shot in a different area of the woods.

 

another thing is vang says the shot first was at him and he ducked and it hit 30-40 feet behind him. sounds like they were aiming for him, almost, dont it? I WONDER what they all were talking about right before they shot at him.

 

i wonder if there was any alcohol in any of the hunters' blood.

 

better watch out for our right to self-defense with this case. its going to get ugly if he doesnt get a decent lawyer.

[Bvamp 604]

ATD: they were probably confused about the saiga because of it having 7.62x39mm chambering, a detach. mag, and a sporter stock on it, but was russian. that serial # sure looks like a saiga serial. like i said, we should have a lot of visitors here soon. hopefully mack realises this and doesnt fix the board, so it will be difficult for the ones who dont know crap about our russian guns to get good info on them. LET ALONE.....well......im not even going to say it. ya'll know what im talking about.

[SaigaShooter 0]

one thing that i would like to know is if there were any rounds missing from the other hunters rifle, or even a spent casing in the chamber.

[Bvamp 604]

id like to know how the guy that was shot in the shoulder that made most of the hunter's statement on what happened, "returned fire" and exactly what that means. also, the guys that showed up, vang says he did not see what the guys that stopped were doing. (collecting weapons and wounded) also, there is a huge discrepancy between what both sides say, in that if you look at it all, you will see that one side says one person shot at vang, the other says it was someone else. also, if vang dropped the first guy with the gun as both sides seem to say, how did a gun get up in the woods with the other two that vang SUPPOSEDLY chased, neither of whom fired at vang, or even had a gun, according to the victim's witness? remember, the first guy shot was the one that asked vang what he was doing in his sons treestand, and also was the guy with the gun according to vang, AND the victims are saying that that man was the owner or the land, who WAS the first one shot. Id like to know what they find also. whered his gun go? one of the two dead away from the scene have it? or did they have ANOTHER one, and did the guys that showed up on quads take the guns on the ground/and or wounded? vang clearly stated that they were doing something and checking bodies, but wasnt sure what exactly they were doing before they drove off. Im guessing they are going to find more than one person's fingerprints on the victims' gun, as well as casings in multiple areas from that gun, or even from multiple guns other than vang's.

 

vang's story is too detailed and has too much information, and was made when he darn sure knew what was happening to him legally, and i dont think he is lying. for someone that was shot at by a psychopath and hit, there is awfully vague and general information in thier statement. I think the people that confronted vang are lying from reading that report a couple of times, myself. I am looking forward to hearing more information about the incident, because SOMEBODY is lying.

 

theres only two outcomes here

 

1 - execute vang as a multiple murderer or give him life or whatever law they have there or;

 

2 - he gets off with manslaughter charges on the more questionable slayings, and our self defense laws get examined closely and probably get changed to have a lot more stringent circumstances to use that right.

[Bvamp 604]

Im trying to figure out why the two still alive are making a statement today, and why they didnt include in thier statement to police that they were the ones being intimidated and insulted, like they are supposedly saying now. That was and is KINDA RELEVANT, and I CANNOT see why they wouldnt have said that initially. I cant wait to see what these two have to say, as well as watch them say it. They were smart and left room to fill in the blanks after they spoke to each other and got thier story straight.

 

I hate to be cruel, BUT I GUESS WE KNOW how our siagas will function and work in a home defense role, now dont we?

 

I cant wait for when the media figures out it was an AK47. they are going to have a friggin field day with that, and will surely find this board looking for a picture of a "Saiga SKS 7.62x39mm assault weapon". its too bad in the sporterised version its NOT an assault weapon in ANY state of the union except for the facist state of california.

 

I am willing to speculate, and although it may anger a lot of people for doing so, I just think that a lot of people wont realise or consider this guy may just have acted in self defense. if he didnt, so be it, hang him. if he actually did? well, if people dont consider that at the outset, public opinion will wrongly be influenced, and this man will NOT get a fair trail ANYWHERE.

Edited November 24, 2004 by Bvamp

[SaigaShooter 0]

They were probably pretty "out of it" for the past couple days. Perhaps the police wanted to wait to get a statement until they were more coherent.

[Bvamp 604]

yeh, thats why they were running around with the police showing them where to find them with a gunshot wound, right? I tell ya, that is THE FIRST thing I would have told the cops, and Im sure any of you would as well. That is your whole case. Im sorry, "he started it" is not much of a statement to police, and sure does sound like they didnt want to say much at first because they didnt know if each other would have thier story right, whereas Vang made an incredibly coherant and clear statement, even incriminating himself in part by admitting to not knowing who had a gun after the initial exchange of fire. I know I wouldnt care who did either at that point....

Edited November 24, 2004 by Bvamp

[jtoddellis 2]

I herd on the radio this morning that Vang was once a member of the California National Guard and had a Sharpshooters Badge. From reading the report I agree that he may have been in self defense on the first kill, but after that it sounds like he just went to far. They said here on local radio there are something like 20,000 Laotions in that area and that they have no reguard for private property. I can say that if I walk up on a foreighner on my land and ask him to leave I would probablly be pretty mad if he gives me any back lip. I was in a stand on someone else's land once which I had asked permision to be there but asked the owners son instead of the owner. Someone walked up on me and looked and then walked off. A few minutes later the owner drove through the woods and right up to the stand and asked me to get down and don't ever get back in it. He told me he had 1100 acres and I could hunt anywhere on it but that stand. I got mad but it was his land so I didn't argue with him. Needless to say I haven't been back on his property since.

[Bvamp 604]

was he with four people calling you a redneck sunnuvahbitch? did he fire a shot over your shoulder because you werent running away fast enough?

 

and i hear ya. ever ride a bus or other public transport with a foreign asian? they dont seem to understand the concept of personal space, let alone personal property. I think its because of how thier homelands are, and the lack of idividual rights there. cant say i hate em for it, but i hear ya. this guy was in the national guard you said prior to this happening. I think he would know about getting off some redneck's land if he was indeed mistakenly trespassing. further, if he was in the national guard previously, he is an american and no longer a foreigner in my book. funny how i seem to be hitting a lot of facts correctly before the facts come out.

 

further, if you read the police report, you will notice the guy that fired the first shot did not have a gun. also, there was a gun off with two guys whom i bet the guys that showed up couldnt find to take thier guns and hide them. also, vang popped the kid and girl AFTER they drove up on him in a quad, overshot him stopping, and the kid unshouldered ON THE BIKE WITH THE GIRL IN THE WAY, where vang proceeded to defend himself further.

 

there is an interesting comment vang makes about "not wanting to shoot anyone else" and throwing away his remaining ammo. I think at that point he would have died rather than taking another life in self defense.

 

also, its funny how these rednecks waited until they found out what vang said before making comments on what happened in any detail. I think they were trying to either kill or injure the guy, and he was fortunately trained in combat tactics and such to the point that the rednecks couldnt shoot his ass and leave him for dead and claim it as an "accidental shooting".

 

as i keep saying, expect our rights to be taken away or made to be encrypted like the firearms laws currently are.

 

the more i see and hear, the more i am convinced that I am indeed correct in thinking vang was defending himself against a bunch of racist rednecks that were commiting a racial hate crime. I guess they messed with the wrong guy, now, didnt they?