tnek 49 Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Its sad yet funny the way the tube feeders seem to hate Saigas. Why is it these guys who embrace every new devepment in firearms shun the Saiga?? The Enos board is a prime example and it seems that some of them hope that the Saiga is deemed a DD one way or another. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 I figure that when the a Saiga wins the Pan-American Shotgun Championship in 2010 they will all be on the band wagon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted March 15, 2008 Report Share Posted March 15, 2008 There are several problems with the BE Forum. One is overenthusiastic mods, some of which shut down threads for no apparent reason. Another is the "no politics" stance, which is strange because machinery that is at the root of all gun games has, as a basis of continued availablity, politics. Still, it is the best way to chat with serious shooters, not posers. I construed the posts as more of "why is this one bad and not that one," and not a "Oh, daddy, daddy, ban THAT one!" kind of thing. Why IS one mag gun banned and the other isn't? The answer is politics, of course, which you can't mention on BE lest your thread get shut down, you get put on "watch" status (or banned). Been there, done that. If you want to get a bunch of BE folks riled up, state that you think the Limited-10 Division should be scrapped since we have Single Stack now. The old tuber guys don't want to buy new gear. They like the way things are. The President of USPSA shoots 3-gun and he likes the 10-round KlintonLimit, so that isn't going anywhere either. With a ten-round top end and zip tubes in the 4/6/8/10 round catigory readily available, there is no real reason to change to a modern gun for the Open shooter. Guys who hand feed their antiques don't want to run against mag guns, which is what makes next weekend's match near Dalls so interesting...there are now at least three mag fed guns competing heads-up against the antique hand-loaders. Should be interesting. It would help, of course, if any of those three were good with a shotgun. One of them is a wonderful aerial target (sporting clays, trap, skeet) shooter, but gets sloppy on steel. The other two are pistol/rifle guys who just dabble in shotguns. Still, should be interesting. Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldandslow 3 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 I have just started winning shotgun stages at a local multi-gun match. I struggled for 2 years with malfunctions and slow reloading on a closed bolt. I eventually made every flat surface in the chamber loading area "beveled". I also stumbled an old Tromix post showing how to "shave the bolt and bolt carrier". There was also a "constriction" where if the shell took a "high" path into the chamber it would actually stick the bolt solid. Only one other person reported this. This leads me to believe that very few of the members shot the Saigas in competition. All 3 of my Saiga-12s had this constriction. The modification that made me a winner was the "gen-2" AGP magazines. With these, I have seen 2.60 second shot to aimed shot reloads. This reload speed kicks the tube guns a**. Again I have reported this on this forum, but nobody seems interested. I now have acquired a Russian magazine well. I have butchered two AGP magazines to make them fit. I doubt if I will be able to break 2 seconds in shot to aimed shot reloads, but I should be much more consistent doing fast reloads. Now I only hit 2 of 3 fast reloads (good enough to build a significant lead in a 3 gun match). I believe the rest of the AGP magazines I modify will look factory. I have also reported this. Again, no apparent interest. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 My old home club has been on the cutting edge of Saigas in competition since long before Saigas were "cool." When I started shooting Open, I didn't bother with zip tubes and went right to a mag fed gun (which I have been shooting ever since). My wife tried the then (and still) best "Open" shotgun on the market, then switched to a Saiga. There is interest at the top of the sport. I know of three of the world's best who have Saigas (hell, I sold one of those guys his Saiga), and they have been playing with them. HOWEVER, until the rules in USPSA change, there is no real interested because there is no real advantage. Since all mag fed guns are "Open", and since Open guns can have zip tubes, and since you can't put more than ten rounds in the gun...and, most of all, courses of fire are ever-so-carefully set up to allow zip tube guns plenty of reload time...the gain of a speedly reload is negated. At the non-USPSA matches, a 20-round drum is very handy on the VERY FEW stages that are more than 8-10 rounds. I've ranted about this before, and anyone that shot the Texas State 3-Gun's didn't see this at MY matches...stage design that favors the antiques is the norm. Flat out "shoot what you got" stages are rare. Take, for example, the NM State 3-Gun. The first year, the San Angelo crowd showed up with a bunch of mag fed guns and did very well. The next year...ah, the "slug stage." All slugs to be used had to be staged loose, downrange, in a saddle bag. The stage designer/match director said (when we joked with him about how he set up the mag fed guys for a screwin') "...oh, I didn't think about that..." Yeah, right. For another example, the 2007 USPSA Nationals. Only two stages, IIRC, needed a reload. Everything was short little close stuff with a low round count...which favors the antiques since they are on even ground with the modern guns. As long as the 10-round limit, and the "mag fed only in Open" rules are in place, I predict that you won't see the big guys running mag fed shotguns. The rules are designed for, and the stages are designed for, and the staged are designed by (with the exception of one match) antique gun folks. There isn't enough to gain. That said, at the club level (unless you hang out at Mesa, or San Angelo, or Princeton LA), a guy with a mag gun running "heads up" with the normal run of the mill shooters can dominate. Next weekend's match (a State-level shotgun championship that is allowing (gasp) mag fed guns in "tactical" (not "open") level competition, just outside Dallas, should be interesting. Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philg80 1 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I have been shooting my Saiga for the last 2 1/2 years in competition and love it. I got tired of my "open" remy 1100 choking on stages and have not looked back since. I have two clubs I shoot at and one is a sanctioned club and follows USPSA and the other is just a "fun run" club that tries to follow the rules as closely as possible. When we shoot a multigun match here then I put people in their class by mainly pistol. I personally shoot open, but there are two other shooters that come and shoot open sighted pistols with their saig and I put them in tactical. The saiga is no real advantage to these two guys. I always throw in a high round count stage just to be mean and show what the saiga can do. At the sanctioned club there is usually one fairly large shotgun stage18+ rounds, but the rest can be done with one mag only and then transition to another gun. Last year at our big state match he did put in a 12 round stage that screwed me completely, but I got back at them when I was able to finish one stage where I was able to load a mag of slugs in my gun to finish and all the tubers had to load two sticks and then rack the bolt. One guy messed up with his tuber and shot a popper with a slug and DQed. I have been trying like hell to get some other saiga shooters to come to our state match, but no one seems interested. I am usually the lonely saiga shooter. Tnek has visited our club but did not use his saiga. I am trying to get RAA to sponsor the match since they are only 2 hours away. Hope to see some more shooters on the wagon coming to these matches. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Wakal, Actually, you will be seeing the big guys running Saigas shortly. I have Taran Butler's gun in here now. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 USPSA stopped being 'practical' when 'raceguns' were introduced. This is why one of IPSC's founders Ken Hackathorn went on to start the IDPA league. The Saiga is a practical racegun version of the shotgun while still being. If USPSA don't like it we have Gabe Suarez on our side and he sees the tactical advantage the Saigas have. I'm sure when Saiga use increased they'll have to allow them in matches. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTOShootr 0 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Wakal, Actually, you will be seeing the big guys running Saigas shortly. I have Taran Butler's gun in here now. Tony That is a big deal. Very cool. However, he was already beating the whole field of tactical class and tec loaders guns when loading a Benelli by hand. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DavePAL84 1 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 We have a 3-gun coming up in Ohio and I was just told by the match director that I'd have to be in the Open class because I'll be running a Saiga. So now I'll be undergunned in the rifle (AR /w EOtech) and pistol (plain jane G34, my IDPA pistol). Awesome. When I shot down in NC I was sure that they let guys with Saiga's run under Tactical, but maybe I was wrong. Hmmph. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
headshot 52 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Wakal, Actually, you will be seeing the big guys running Saigas shortly. I have Taran Butler's gun in here now. Tony Thats the second big name I've heard jumping on the Saiga bandwagon. It won't be long. Maybe 2 or 3 years until saigas become the standard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 They better be really smooth on the reloads because a few of us have been practicing in the off season! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldandslow 3 Posted March 18, 2008 Report Share Posted March 18, 2008 (edited) Yes... Another local match won by, well, that would be me. What was really cool (is cool still being used?) is I shot a stage in 17 seconds. When the better shooters saw this time, they pushed their tube magazine guns and crashed. I built up so much time on the shotgun stages, that I won the match. Now, I working on a magazine well Saiga. I have the Russian magazine well installed and have modified (butchered is more like it) two AGP mags to fit. From the first two magazines, I think I have learned how to make them work and look reasonably good. I actually don't expect much of a improvement over my best reloading times (less than 3 seconds, shot to aimed shot). I do expect to be much more consistent. Still haven't gotten a look at Tony Rumore's Competition Saiga that he built for Dean Makos. Dean must have heard that I'm kicking butt and is afraid to compete with me. (All right, I'm just kidding, Dean would crush me like a grape.) I would like to mention that my club typically have one 20+ round shotgun stage (two reloads) and one "speed shoot" shotgun stage (one reload). Sometime we add gimmicks, empty gun start (good for me), pepper popper launching clay birds. We think people come out to shoot. Many rifle stages are 40+ rounds. Edited March 23, 2008 by oldandslow Quote Link to post Share on other sites
okent 0 Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 I just shot a partial match today. Got delayed for rain. I shot a TROMIX conversion gun and was required to shoot open even though I didn't have optics or a ported barrel. I was the only guy out there with a saiga. I also shot my mossberg 500. My times were almost exactly twice as long with the pump. It was so much fun I am going to have to get on the list for a competition gun! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Sounds like it's the Fudds who are always idiots.Makes me think of the club president of the gun club I belong to.He jumped out of his truck and started screaming at me about taking firewood from the wrong stack for camping on property even though there are no signs or way of knowing.This guy is almost 7' and 60 pounds over me in my face screaming red faced at me!He did not know though,in my fanny pack I had my SP101 loaded with Federal Castcore 180 grainers........I tried to talk civil like an adult but all he could do was yell.I told him I hope he doesn't treat his wife and kids that way and that he was acting like he was 2 years old.I am really surprised he didn't swing at me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gunfighteruk 6 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 We shoot Practical Shotgun (psg) here in the Uk with 10 match stages ,round counts from 7 to 40 so lots of reloading.Two seasons Iv been competing using an M2 & have now on order 2 Etac's saiga's , im convinced this is the way forward & will be shooting these through out Europen comps next season.Plenty of Saigas & Veper's at local matches but no custom race guns yet.Should be interesting to see if i move up the score sheet. Like most i can shoot well but the tube reloads let me down even with practice.I'll be in the Open div so have added every extra possible ! We have to carry 60 rounds on some stages , any one built a speed rig with the mags upright facing forward ? Are any of you shooting dedicated shotgun matches ? or are they all 3 gun ?. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 why is there resistance to it?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 Good question. I think some people like to keep everything the same and never change. Maybe they should turn Amish! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigcraig 0 Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 The resistance is easy to understand, they are set in there ways and are pissed that "they" didn't think to use an S12 themselves. I bet you a dollar that if Brian Enos himself started using an S12 years ago, the S12 platform would be more easily accepted. I shoot a few USPSA pistol matches but I DO NOT take it very seriously, as I feel the whole class system is absurd. But it is a GAME, and as with all GAMES, it is going to have some aspects that don't appeal to all people. For me, I hate the fact that if you shoot production that you can only load 10+1, my chosen production gun is a G17, as that is my CCW. Since I could careless if I win or not, I shoot in the limited class, as the only reason I am there is for the trigger time. When USPSA designates a class for these guns, I will take it a bit more serious. 1)Handguns--- no optics, only factory capacity magagzines can be used, mounted lights and lasers OK. Scored with no bias as to caliber. 2)Rifles---- optics yes--but only one that is magnified (So if you use a RDS you can also use a magnifier, however if you use an ACOG or a variable power scope you can also use a small RDS mounted like a Dr.OP or a Burris fast fire. (Modern BATTLE RIFLES use optics.) Also, scored with no bias as to calber used. 3)Shotguns---Run what you brung, but there will be NO slugs shot in any of the stages. THERE SHOTGUNS, THERE DESIGNED to shoot lead shot pellets, if I want to shoot a target 100 yards away I will use a RIFLE, because that is what they are designed for. 4)Caliber and ammo---Must have a NATO designation. Lets call this class, "modern battle class". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 That's why I don't bother. I hate the drama of having to deal with others telling me what I can shoot and the personal conflicts. I would rather spend a couple hours by myself shooting up cans and spinning plates, my choice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
philg80 1 Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 USPSA stopped being 'practical' when 'raceguns' were introduced. This is why one of IPSC's founders Ken Hackathorn went on to start the IDPA league. The Saiga is a practical racegun version of the shotgun while still being. If USPSA don't like it we have Gabe Suarez on our side and he sees the tactical advantage the Saigas have. I'm sure when Saiga use increased they'll have to allow them in matches. I personally like IPSC/USPSA and I follow the rules and shoot "OPEN". I like my "raceguns" as it was put above and I personally do not shoot IDPA. Not because I would not want to, but because their are few in our area that shoot this discipline. USPSA can be compared to racing. If you can bring the best toys out to play(Castrol Racing,ETC), but they put you in modified(street legal) you wouldn't have much fun. Now I believe that a Saiga should be allowed in some of the other divisions (Tactical and Limited) but our magazines are considered speed loaders and therefore we have an advantage. I shot this weekend at the KY State Multigun and I won all the shotgun stages(on the RO day) except for 1 with the help of my Saiga. I still cannot talk any of our club members in to buying a Saiga for Multigun. They are set in their ways with the tube guns. So until they realize the advantage of the Saiga and see me continue to beat them on a regular basis then i'm just going to keep quiet and have fun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 At my local club they have all pistol shoots but no shotgun at all. That would interest me most, since the club used to have it years ago and stopped for no reason. I have competed before but nothing on the major scale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ajackb 0 Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 We have to carry 60 rounds on some stages , any one built a speed rig with the mags upright facing forward ?Are any of you shooting dedicated shotgun matches ? or are they all 3 gun ?. Gunfighteruk, I've been toying around with several options for my shotgun related 3 Gun matches. I have a drop leg pouch from TheVestGuy.com that works reasonable well. I also just purchased a used US GI Molle II vest that I'm looking for the appropriate lower pockets but have used it twice by wearing it inside out. The inside has a lower pocket on both sides that holds four mags upright on my chest but still needs some velcro on top to totally secure them for more active stages. The Vest Guy also will custom build a chest pouch with full velcro for you for a reasonable price. Probably can't fit more than three on it . Check out his website. Hope that helps a bit. Alan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 I like hunting with my S-12s! The Fudds with their shiny Brownings Over and Unders shudder Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 SAIGA-12..........RESISTANCE IS FUTILE! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Sounds like it's the Fudds who are always idiots.Makes me think of the club president of the gun club I belong to.He jumped out of his truck and started screaming at me about taking firewood from the wrong stack for camping on property even though there are no signs or way of knowing.This guy is almost 7' and 60 pounds over me in my face screaming red faced at me!He did not know though,in my fanny pack I had my SP101 loaded with Federal Castcore 180 grainers........I tried to talk civil like an adult but all he could do was yell.I told him I hope he doesn't treat his wife and kids that way and that he was acting like he was 2 years old.I am really surprised he didn't swing at me We have a caretaker who acts like that at our club. He's on his last warning now. One more outburst and he's OUT! This is a guy who claims to ex-USMC and has shot 1/16" groups with a stock M16 @ 500yards. What a 'tard! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Same club? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
banshee 69 Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 why is there resistance to it?? it may because SAIGAs are AKs. The AK has a bad image in the US. It has been the weapon of our enemy for 50 years. More bad press on the AK than all of the other firearms combined. For several years every time someone went on a shooting spree, the press call what ever weapon they had an AK-47, only to find out later it wasn't. When you mention the AK to some of the people I know, they act like it is pure evil, nothing but a killing machine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gpqueen 545 Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Same club? There is one at every club. We actually have two. Lucky me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
THE_HUNTER 2 Posted June 8, 2008 Report Share Posted June 8, 2008 Wow, you really are lucky..... I've only had to deal with him once in the like 6 years of being a member there luckily but he has bird dogs and has given me a bad taste for the "bird doggers" there sadly, though they could be nice.We are not allowed to hunt one parcel on Sundays there because the bird doggers might want to use it. I guess I'm a second class member because I have no shiny couple thousand dollar shotguns or fancy dogs.....I hate club politics!Actually, I hate all politics.They just muck everything up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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