Friendly warning to all who don't know...

[Maniac Jack 2]

Look at this as a Public Service Announcement

 

I don't know if this is a proper post, but here it is, from our very own Tech Section.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=274

 

 

see how the bolt carrier never really slams, only lightly "touches" the rear of the receiver? In most cases it never even touches the rear of the receiver at all. That's why recoil buffers actually get in the way of the function of the bolt carrier, destroying the rear trunnion of an AK, loosening the rivets that hold it in place!

 

The evils of the recoil buffer!

 

Well I didn't find out this info until I checked this out, and I feel stupid, because I've been a member for awhile!

 

Just for the sake of fun and entertainment, here's a guy burning the wood off of his AK-47:

 

And here's a PSA about the Saiga-12!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UesnpdnlIA&NR=1

[sicktooth 8]

BUFFERS ARE GONE AND IN THE TRASH!!!

[kresk 10,063]

If you're ever having problems with cycling the first thing to do is get rid of the buffer if there is one in place. Seems to fix the problem most of the time!

[Starship1st 0]

This is why I love this forum: for the valuable information. Thanks; I had planed on buying a buffer, but not now.

[uzitiger 193]

I also wasted $10 on a buffer for my Saiga rifle and it did nothing. The bolt carrier doesn't go far enough to strike it. Unless your firearm is designed to take a buffer from the factory like the PPSh-41 or Uzi, you are wasting your money. It may even impeded functionality especially if it breaks apart and jams up your action. I doubt it would destroy the rivets since they are solid ones, they would tear the buffer first.

Edited March 28, 2008 by uzitiger

[nalioth 405]

There is only one scenario I'll recommend a buffer in a Kalashnikov for.

 

A few weeks ago I was at a build party. One of the guys drilled his rear rivets too far forward, and as a result had to open up his rails so the bolt carrier would drop in.

 

Opening up the bolt rails caused the hammer to pop the bolt carrier out every time it was pulled to the rear ( jamming the gun).

 

 

The addition of a recoil buffer kept the bolt carrier from being pulled all the way to the rear, and it didn't pop the bolt carrier out any more after that.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

No disrespect intended to Maniac Jack but is this post a joke?

 

"DESTROY" the rear trunnion"?

 

"Loosen" the rivets"??

 

"CRACK THE RECEIVER"???

 

Those are very strong words. Anyone who believes that crap has a screw loose.

 

I think you should do a little more research on AKs, not HKs or CETMEs, before you come on here wanting to "sticky" such an over reactive post...

 

Perhaps professor nalioth wouldn't mind sharing with the group some "FACTS" on just how he thinks and AK receiver can become cracked by adding some extra padding.

 

I would also like to see some FACTS documented by photos showing how the rear trunnion can not possibly receive any damage from the BCG slamming back into it.

At that time I will call bullshit and show you photos documenting the opposite to be true.

 

I admit fully that the AK is an almost indestructible weapon and usually there is no need for something extra like a buffer to be added, but there are other circumstances sometimes to consider. Like the guy at nalioth's build party found a use for instance...

 

More importantly though this thing about wanting to sticky this thread in every section is preposterous, reason being that all the Saigas are NOT just like the 7.62x39, ESPECIALLY the S-12 which is the main Saiga weapon that brings the most traffic to this board. The other shotties as well, which have an adjustable gas system, are prone to damage if they are fired with the wrong ammo on the wrong gas setting. It's not something that someone should do more than once before learning from experience, (like I did) that it causes pain to the shooter and damage to the gun. In that case it is useful to have a buffer in there just in case the gun is loaned out (such as at a range) and could possibly be misused unknowingly. It seriously does not take more than one session to do permanent damage to the rear trunnion. I have PROOF of this. For that reason, and that reason only, I do promote the use of a (thin soft) buffer like the green one from blackjack, in the Saiga shotguns. If you have a shottie that runs well already, it should not cause malfunctions. A brand new gun needs to be broke in and it helps to do some polishing of the contact surfaces too. As Tony has pointed out, the S-12 bolt carrier does not come back as far past the ejector and magwell area as does that of the x39 or other rifles. This is why people sometimes have issues from the buffer eliminating that extra bit of overtravel. But if your gun is cycling well enough that alone should not be an issue with a thinner buffer. The Buffertech is indeed much thicker than the Blackjack but I have a Buffertech in one of my guns and it performs flawlessly.

 

Furthermore, the AK-47 itself, does indeed get a heathy dose of force supplied to the rear trunnion from the violent impact of the BC slamming backwards. The recoil spring takes most of the pressure off but if you look closely at this video...

It is very obvious that the brunt of the force is taken by the rear trunnion. Notice how on the very first shot, the front end of the BC rises UPWARDS upon impact with the rear trunnion. If the spring was taking all the impact then not only would it smash through the back of the dustcover eventually, but the front of the gas piston would bounce downward. not upward.

 

To each his own but I do not think it's a good idea to say the sky is falling and all buffers should be removed and thrown in the trash. They DO sometimes serve a good purpose. If someone has a bad experience one time, with just one gun, and decides they are junk and posts a on public forum that they a ripoff to the consumer, then that not only spreads bullshit but it alienates the businesses that designed and sells those and other products.

 

Anyone who wants to throw their buffers away please send them to me instead and I will reimburse you for the stamp.

[nalioth 405]

Perhaps professor nalioth wouldn't mind sharing with the group some "FACTS" on just how he thinks and AK receiver can become cracked by adding some extra padding.

"Professor" nalioth has never claimed damage occurs to AKs when using the buffer. However, using the buffertech buffer in a HK91/G3/Cetme has been documented to crack the rear of the receiver.

 

These are the culprits:

 

I have said that if your Kalashnikov bolt carrier is striking the rear trunnion, your spring is probably worn and needs replacing. This is common in kit built AKs where the spring has been through the war in Kosovo or 30 years of service to the monarch.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Well that is not a Kalashnikov. This forum is not here to discuss problems with HKs while misguiding new Kalashnikov owners to think that a piece of plastic can damage Russian steel.

See what happened above because of you misleading comments.

[nalioth 405]

Well that is not a Kalashnikov. This forum is not here to discuss problems with HKs while misguiding new Kalashnikov owners to think that a piece of plastic can damage Russian steel.

See what happened above because of you misleading comments.

Actually, I was not misleading anyone. Here is the content of my post in this thread linked from post number 1: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=274

 

I also installed buffers in a CETME and PTR-91 with no problems.

I urge you to remove those. They will cause your receiver to crack.

 

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=...mp;postcount=21

 

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=447

 

I cannot control the comprehension of anyone.

 

I stand by my warning in the context in which it was given.

[aresv 49]

However, using the buffertech buffer in a HK91/G3/Cetme has been documented to crack the rear of the receiver.

These are the culprits:

 

I can see that buffer would cause problems. When it gets squished it wants to expand sideways and press against the sides of the receiver. Do that a couple hundred times hard enough and, yeah, I can imagine it would crack the receiver.

 

Such a failure does not seem anywhere near as likely on an AK, though I still don't think recoil buffers are a smart idea in them.

[Maniac Jack 2]

Allright, time to humble myself.

 

 

Cobra is completely 100% right on this one. In the face of logic, I can't argue. It seems I've pulled a "Chicken Little" on this one and stirred up a shit-storm.

 

To tell y'all the truth, I use recoil buffers in most of my AKs, and it seems that my .223 and x39 guns don't seem to really need a recoil buffer. But they probably wouldn't suffer from having I thin one to suck up the slop of the bolt carrier. And now that I think of it logically, if you do want to test your gun, like its been said before, try putting some masking tape on the rear trunnion and firing it. If its obvious that the bolt carrier is hitting the rear trunnion, try replacing the recoil spring, or try getting a thin recoil buffer like the ones from BlackJack. Or do both! Get a new spring, AND a BlackJack buffer. I've always run the thin BlackJack green ones. They're affordable, and hey, it stimulates the economy!

 

In fact, after going over all my guns, I realize that I've never used a recoil buffer in my Saiga-12, but it's the one gun I own that needs one the most. I've run every kind of bird shot, buck shot and slug through that baby, and after actually looking at the rear trunnion compared to my other guns, it looks like I took a roofing hammer to it. Even the rear trunnion on my old SAR-1 that's had 10,000+ rounds through it doesn't look as bad. So, I'll be putting a buffer in my '12, and I'd deffinitely recommend a buffer for your Saiga 12, or your 20 or 410.

 

As far as being wary of the rear trunnion comming apart because of an extra quarter-inch of soft rubber between the back of the gun and the bolt carrier, forget about it! These rifles are made it RUSSIA, with hard Russian steel. Have you looked at the rear trunnion of your Saigas lately? Look at the thickness of the receiver. Now look at the rivets that go through the reciver and into the rear trunnion, holding it in place. Those damn rivets are pounded in there so tight, they make that heavy Russian steel bend inward toward the center of the rivet. Now that is solid construction. That is a Kalashnikov. These rifles were made by Izhmash, for Chrissakes! You might expect rivets to pop out and shear off in some poopy Romanian rifle, but not these. These rifles are solid Russian weaponry.

 

So, in essence, this is what my original post should have been about, sifting the truth out of the bullshit, and coming to a logical and educated conclusion about recoil buffers:

 

1.) Recoil buffers definitely help in a Saiga 12, 20 or 410.

2.) They do not help any in an HK91/G3/CETME (Those aren't even AKs, but thanks anyway for the info nalioth).

3.) In every other AK-based rifle, it is a personal preference. Some rifles will need 'em, some may not. Its all up to you.

 

Sorry for creating any unwanted panic or stress, and thanks for suffering through this episode of "The Sky Is Falling," starring Maniac Jack.