Would this break 922r?

[wickeddeus 0]

I have a stock Saiga 12 19"bbl and wanted to know if I changed the buttstock to this:

 

 

Would that break the 922r? Is there anyway to get the 5 US replacement parts without drill or pretty much with just bolt-on parts?

 

Thanks.

[IndyArms 10,186]

I am going to say it will NOT violate 922R as i KNOW they import the rifles with that stock currently... HOWEVER...

 

It MIGHT violate your STATE LAW with a pistol gripped shotgun and a detachable box magazine. ( AKA ... NY state)

 

I also might be wrong as I am not a lawyer. YMMV etc..etc.....

 

 

[wickeddeus 0]

Awesome, thanks for your input. I think that's really the only mod I want to do to the current 12. Hopefully once I save enough money I'll be able to order a Tromix S-14.

[einherjrar 0]

I have a stock Saiga 12 19"bbl and wanted to know if I changed the buttstock to this:

 

 

Would that break the 922r? Is there anyway to get the 5 US replacement parts without drill or pretty much with just bolt-on parts?

 

Thanks.

 

The short answer is; yes, but no.

The long answer is; possibly, depending on which statements (which has been very nebulous) is being applied to thumbhole stocks.

 

The thumbhole stock is a previously debated topic;

 

There are two letters from the BATF I have read on this subject, one that interprets it as a device WITHOUT having a pistol grip, and one that identifies thumbhole stocks as, yes, possessing a pistol grip feature.

 

It sounds like you already possess the following information, but I have included it for completeness.

 

As you will see below (and are probably already well aware), the 'pistol grip' is a feature which can define a firearm as being a member of an 'assault family'.

 

Section [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(30)] declares that you will have assembled a 'semi-automatic assault shotgun', depending on which letter is being applied you will have two or more from a list of components of which are included (underlined):

a folding or telescoping stock;

a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

a fixed magazine in excess of five rounds;

and an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

Because you have (possibly) two or more of these listed components (depending on which letter is applied), you can then have NO MORE THAN 10 IMPORTED PARTS attached by an adjoined list (which you are also most probably aware of).

 

I emphatically recommend that you read (if you havn't already):

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=122

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=14647

 

It takes some patience and diligence on your part to verify for yourself, to yourself, that you will remain compliant with federal standards. I 'have no dog in this hunt' , except the desire to advise an individual who wishes to remain compliant with federal standards, have pertinent information available to them, and retain the ability to make an informed decision. It took me two years to start work on doing anything to mine, because I was afraid of inadvertently making myself a criminal on technical grounds despite my intention and possibly subject to punitive action (which can be severe).

 

I personally would not attach such a device onto the weapon unless you are willing to replace other foreign parts to satisfy full compliance, merely because there is a simply too much area for individual interpretation from an authority which, if they want to MAKE you guilty of a violation rather than discovering WHETHER you are guilty of a violation, will almost certainly do so. Even if this isn't the case, it's best not to leave these kinds of things to chance.

 

My opinion; if you intend to use that stock, replace some other parts as an insurance against possible criminal action, which will be likely be steep.

 

**********************************

Depending on the specific firearm, merely avoiding foreign magazines can be enough. Domestic magazine body, follower, and floorplate = 3 more items off the imported checklist.

 

Most unconverted saiga's IIRC carry 14 imported parts that are on that list. Replace with domestic made stock (1), use domestic magazines (body/follower/floorplate (3)) = 15 restricted with 10 imported parts, 5 domestic (that stock may count as pistol grip AND stock (2)). I replaced the Fire Control Group (but I did full conversion, which it sounds like you want to avoid). If you need one more part I'd recommend a domestic foreend, they're pretty easy to find.

**********************************

 

I have not heard any compelling 'absolute statements' from the fed as of yet about this subject, and do not expect any to be forthcoming. Personally I think the many of the laws around the whole damn issue is silly.

 

Regardless of how you are advised by myself or others, always perform some do-diligence and a little research/homework to determine for yourself.

 

More information and opinion than you wanted probably, but that should be a good thing; right?

 

Good luck and happy hunting.

Edited April 9, 2008 by einherjrar

[RDSWriter 5]

First, let me state that I'm just sensative to the term 'loophole'. The modification of an imported firearm to domestic firearm is not a loophole. The law - as written - only applies to imported weapons.

 

922r - as created by the wonderfully intelligent, consistent, benevolent BATF - is meant to clarify what 'imported' means. The more we use the term loophole, the more some other dumb 'holes' will want to 'close the loophole' by adding a ton of other parts to the 922r list - e.g. front sight base, front sight, rear sight base, rear sight, trigger pin, hammer pin, front takedown pin, rear takedown pin, firing pin, buttplate, extractor, ejector, magazine release lever, selector, bayonet, bipod, scope mount/rings, scope. There's a lot of other parts that could be added too... considering the springs and screws.

 

Think about it... the ideal solution for antigunners to address the gunshow 'loophole' is to prohibit the private sale of all guns. It isn't a loophole that citizens can sell private property - including guns. For most of us in the free states of the US... we've been able to do that since the Pilgrims landed. It's not a loophole.

Edited April 9, 2008 by RDSWriter

[kellysguy 1]

I have a stock Saiga 12 19"bbl and wanted to know if I changed the buttstock to this:

 

 

Would that break the 922r? Is there anyway to get the 5 US replacement parts without drill or pretty much with just bolt-on parts?

 

Thanks.

 

 

Where can I get one of those wood stocks?

[einherjrar 0]

First, let me state that I'm just sensative to the term 'loophole'. The modification of an imported firearm to domestic firearm is not a loophole. The law - as written - only applies to imported weapons.

 

922r - as created by the wonderfully intelligent, consistent, benevolent BATF - is meant to clarify what 'imported' means. The more we use the term loophole, the more some other dumb 'holes' will want to 'close the loophole' by adding a ton of other parts to the 922r list - e.g. front sight base, front sight, rear sight base, rear sight, trigger pin, hammer pin, front takedown pin, rear takedown pin, firing pin, buttplate, extractor, ejector, magazine release lever, selector, bayonet, bipod, scope mount/rings, scope. There's a lot of other parts that could be added too... considering the springs and screws.

 

Think about it... the ideal solution for antigunners to address the gunshow 'loophole' is to prohibit the private sale of all guns. It isn't a loophole that citizens can sell private property - including guns. For most of us in the free states of the US... we've been able to do that since the Pilgrims landed. It's not a loophole.

 

I apologize for using that term, you are clearly correct. I will retract that word from the document, it is not a loophole.

[nalioth 405]

If it breaks 922r, how is RAAC allowed to import them in that condition?

 

 

Legal for them, but not for you? I doubt it.

[Reverendfranz 160]

If it breaks 922r, how is RAAC allowed to import them in that condition?

 

 

Legal for them, but not for you? I doubt it.

 

+5 on that one. 922r prohibits the assemblage of a rifle into a "non importable configuration" that proves it is importable in that configuration, and 922 is mute.

[einherjrar 0]

Edited April 15, 2008 by einherjrar

[hobbyshooter 59]

Can someone clarify the "Operating rod" for me?

 

I take it we don't have one. Would that be a separate rod going from Gas piston to bolt carrier?

[whatmanual 44]

Look up M-14 operating rod.

 

 

 

Saigas don't have them. Just a bolt, bolt carier, and gas piston.

[Maniac Jack 2]

Excellent question wickeddeus. Allow me to extrapolate.

 

What chaps my ass is that, whenever there is a question about conversion, everyone get up in arms, ("oh my God, 922r! The BATF! AHlalalala!")

 

I had the good fortune of having a lengthy discussion with a guy who strictly builds AKs out of parts kits. He explained to me that 922r only applies to gun importers and gun manufacturers. He has to build them 922r compliant, but only to a point. Which means, he can build them without a mag so that they are compliant, sell them as such and still be following guidlines.

 

What does this mean? Well the gun is 922r compliant without a mag, but if you use it foreign mag it makes in non-compliant, but it doesn't matter because:

1.) you didn't build it

2.) you didn't import it

and 3.) It is already here.

 

922r is essentially an import law and doesn't apply to the end-user. So that means, as long as you are not manufacturing or importing a firearm, you don't have to worry about 922r in the slightest.

 

That's right, that means you can take any Saiga rifle or shotgun, right out of the box, and put a thumbhole stock on it and use a hi-cap mag in it and you, the end-user are completely legal.

 

So, to answer your question wickeddeus, as long as it is legal by your state and local laws, then you are golden.

[nalioth 405]

Excellent question wickeddeus. Allow me to extrapolate.

 

What chaps my ass is that, whenever there is a question about conversion, everyone get up in arms, ("oh my God, 922r! The BATF! AHlalalala!")

 

I had the good fortune of having a lengthy discussion with a guy who strictly builds AKs out of parts kits. He explained to me that 922r only applies to gun importers and gun manufacturers. He has to build them 922r compliant, but only to a point. Which means, he can build them without a mag so that they are compliant, sell them as such and still be following guidlines.

 

What does this mean? Well the gun is 922r compliant without a mag, but if you use it foreign mag it makes in non-compliant, but it doesn't matter because:

1.) you didn't build it

2.) you didn't import it

and 3.) It is already here.

 

922r is essentially an import law and doesn't apply to the end-user. So that means, as long as you are not manufacturing or importing a firearm, you don't have to worry about 922r in the slightest.

 

That's right, that means you can take any Saiga rifle or shotgun, right out of the box, and put a thumbhole stock on it and use a hi-cap mag in it and you, the end-user are completely legal.

 

So, to answer your question wickeddeus, as long as it is legal by your state and local laws, then you are golden.

Unfortunately, the law reads "assemble", not manufacture. The alphabet boys consider inserting a magazine tobe "assembling".

 

It's your 10 years in the pokey. Do what you want.

[Maniac Jack 2]

Yeah, well, it seems like a lot of fear and bullshit to me, nalioth.

 

It also doesn't state that US parts have to marked as such. So there is no way for them to check which parts are US made and which aren't.

 

If they had suspician of criminal activity, had a warrant, and wanted to allocate the resources, they take every rifle apart and to a metalurgical test on all the parts. But that's assuming they felt it was necessary to allocate those kind of resources for one little thing. ("Johnson, we've got suspician that Joe Blo is violating 922r. Scramble the SWAT team, assemble our scientists, and call the FEDs. We're gonna bust 'im.")

 

Needless to say, you'd have to be doing some shit that was majorly wrong for them to be up your ass that far.

 

If you were doing something bad enough to cause federal agents to break down your door and confiscate your guns, a 922r compliance charge would be the least of your worries.

[G O B 3,516]

When they bust in your door at 3 AM because the District Attoruny's mother complained about you'r arsenal of scary things, 922r is what they will charge you with to cover their asses.

 

"Police raid manufacturer of assault weapons" This law is an add-on and/or cover police fuck up creation. The best reason to be compliant is that it makes it harder to butfuck you.

[Jack A Sol 2]

[Maniac Jack 2]

G O B and Jack, you guys are right on.

 

I didn't mean to turn this into a lengthy debate. The point is that wickeddeus can put that RAA stock on his rifle. Its the same difference since RAA is shipping them that way. If there ever was an issue (which there never would be), all he'd have to say is that it came that way.

 

Don't get me wrong wickeddeus, you should follow 922r, when its applicable. Just don't let it discourage you from tinkering on your Saiga. And by all means, don't let it drive you crazy.

[G O B 3,516]

DON'T LET IT DRIVE YOU CRAZY! If it does, the anti's have won. Just use some common sense, if in doubt change 1 extra part. No problem. Just count the forign parts on you'r gun and keep it at 10 OR FEWER.

If the factory can import it with that stock, you can use that stock. Just remember that the factory did NOT import them with a mag of larger than 5 rounds capacity.

[wickeddeus 0]

Thanks for all the help and reply. I like this gun pretty much the way it is and really just wanted a better buttstock and pistol grip. I'm no gunsmith and I don't really know any gunsmith here in Georgia that could/would do a full Saiga 12 conversion. Thus, I'm looking for bolt-on parts that will get me what I want and still keep me legal. I do plan on getting a fully converted Saiga 12 and from the little I know Tony/Tromix does the best work and it is in my price range(too bad he is booked up and the wait is long long long). Also I do have 2 US 10 round mag from AGP(I'm also waiting for those to come back in stock and MD's 20 round drum.....seems like this gun makes you wait a lot). Waiting for those things and the SCAR or ACR seems like the only things I ever do these days.

[nagelmaker 0]

i also am debating getting that stock for my .410. to be dead on (compliant) and cheap as i am what part do i need? what can i order thats bolton,instock. if a mag counts as 3 parts is there a u.s. made mag available i dont care if its a one round just so i can slap it in the gun and say ha,ha!