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Best saiga for sniping at 500 yards


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Hello guys,

 

"admins/mods" Please allow this thread in the 3 saiga sections so i can get feedback for all saiga users,

Thanks a lot.

 

a while ago and post a similar post hoping you guys could help me pick a saiga, since i saw a very close score between .223 or 7.62 i end up buying an AK,

 

pict0664oi1.jpg

 

but the (saiga bug bite me againg) and this time is a hard one... :eek: so here i am, asking you all, one more time... which would be a good choice as a sniper weapon, .223, 7.62 or 308 and also a 16'' or 20'' barrel for (under 400/600 yards) keep in mind, accuracy, stopping power and ammo price ..., its going to be for shooting stuff like gallons of milk, dummies and steal plates at around 500 yards... but i also want a Sniper look to it. and one more thing, i'm not playing on doing a convertion, i have other weapons that i'll name just for refference,

 

Remington 700 with a 4-16X50 tactical scope (mil-dots)

AK-47

Yugo SKS

Mosin-Nagant 91/30

Mosin-Nagant M44

Savage .22

 

Thank you all for your replay!

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At those ranges, the Saiga is not what you want for a "Sniper" weapon. It is *NOT* a Sniper weapon...

 

In fact, you already have one... your Remington 700 (if in a decent caliber) is already going to shoot far better than anything else you have at those ranges. If not... think, perhaps about something else, like a Savage model 12 F-T/R... That will shoot VERY WELL at the ranges you want to shoot at.

 

If you want "looks"... perhaps a Romanian PSL ( Romak 3, SSG-97) is more to your needs? It will reach out to 400-500 yards and hit 10" plates all day long... it is 7.62 X 54R and takes the same rounds as your Mosin Nagants. ( Although you want to only fire LIGHT BALL, not heavy ball out of the PSL's.) That will give you almost DRAGUNOV look and decent performance.

 

:smoke:

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None of the rifles you mentioned are going to be good "sniper" rifles, but if I had to choose between the three, my only choice would be the 308. It will have more power, and you can shoot the long heavy bullets for a BC which will help a lot at the longer ranges. 223 and 7.62x39 are going to be dropping fast & low on energy at that range. I would like to see some 500 yard groups w/ a good 308 Saiga & load developed for it & that range.

 

edited to add:

 

My 2nd choice would be the 223. You can get long heavy bullets which would help, but you might have to hand feed them for best effect because they will probably be too long to feed from the mag. My absolute last choice for 500 yard shots would be the 7.62x39.

Edited by jhereg
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OK, the "sniper" terminology has been covered.

 

I will assume that you are really talking about a designated marksman rifle or similar - that would be useful at 500 yards.

 

For that, a converted S308 fits the bill. It should deliver at least 2 MOA which means a possible 11" or so group at 500 yards - if you do a damned good job. That will hit a man sized target every time.

 

Now, with that in mind, here is what I am talking about (22" S308 converted to "dragunove" type configuration):

 

20500Saiga_308_left_side.jpg

 

This is one that I convterted - used a Red Star fcg (help accuracy a lot) and an ATI stock. The stock required a bit of fitting to allow the action to seat correctly. It easily gave me 2", 100 yard groups - with good milsurp ammo. I am sure it was capable of better with match ammo. I traded another member here for his S308 carbine, which I converted to standard AK PG configuration:

 

HPIM1165.JPG

 

It gives the same level of accuracy with milsurp ammo. It would also do the trick if you prefer a more compact package.

 

Hope that helps.

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if your getting 2" moa you need to change your ammo.not your buttstock. if you get the right ammo with a off the self stock saiga 308 you can get inside 1"@100yrd. getting a 11" moa @500yrds how is any1 going to hit a mansize target? lol omg. maybe with alot of luck! might help if he closed his eyes to.(use the force luke) you might hit it once every 20 rnds.(accually if your body position is right you could close your eyes but you need to know how to shoot) if the new trigger help alot and your now getting 2" moa. lol i dont want to know what you was getting. lol invest $300 in differnt ammo find what your weapon likes you will see it get even better. nice conversions they look good

 

if you want to drive those nails in @500yrds ++ you need to put a bull barrel/ stock on that rem 700 and a $1000 scope.then the question comes up do you know how to shoot long range? long range shooting takes a degree of math and alot of SKILL/trainning with height ,wind speed/direction,bullet weight,range...ect you have to add up all those factores for each shot,to hit your target a small computer can help but the question is even if you put 3 grand into a rifle do YOU have the skill to shoot it the way it is ment to be used?not to mention how much time and money for ammo you will need to get your skills up to that lvl of shooting.saigas are good for mid range 200-300 yrds but you will not hit him between the eyes at that range yes you will get a body hit but not between the eyes they arnt made to do that.if you got a saiag 308 and the right ammo for your weapon you can get 3" @ 300yrds grps, thats not bad but its not a sniper rifle either. an ok sniper rifles will be getting 1" @800yrds grps. if you dont have the time and the money to invest into a sniper rifle get a rifle that you can use and handle most ppl dont shoot over 100-300yrds most combat is within 300yrds. i would go with the longer barrel since the longer ranges is what your looking for but i think 500yrd is a bit far for a saiga your groups will be so big you will have a hard time hitting anything with any accuracy with groups of around 5-6" @500yrds,you can get a body shot, it would be hard to get a head shot.

Edited by Cryptkeeper
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if your getting 2" moa you need to change your ammo.not your buttstock. if you get the right ammo with a off the self stock saiga 308 you can get inside 1"@100yrd. getting a 11" moa @500yrds how is any1 going to hit a mansize target? lol omg. maybe with alot of luck! might help if he closed his eyes to.(use the force luke) you might hit it once every 20 rnds.(accually if your body position is right you could close your eyes but you need to know how to shoot) if the new trigger help alot and your now getting 2" moa. lol i dont want to know what you was getting. lol invest $300 in differnt ammo find what your weapon likes you will see it get even better. nice conversions they look good

 

WTF are talking about? lol

 

Do you know what MOA means? Shooting minute of angle means keeping them inside just over an inch at 100 yards.

 

So, shooting 2MOA would be about 11 inches at 500 yards. Now, measure your chest. It should be somewhere around 20" in diameter. So keeping a target that size at 500 yards with a rifle shooting 2MOA would be no problem in terms of the rifle. Of course, the operator must know the drop of the load he's using and be able to dope windage.

 

As to getting better accuracy from a S308 with match ammo - sure, probably, but not everyone gets better than 2", 100 yard groups with their rifles - so, I was trying to be conservative and not exagerate the rifle's capabilities.

 

And the ATI stock was not added to improve accuracy (did I say that?). It was added to enhance the ergonomics for using that scope that was installed in the pic.

 

So, what's your point my friend? :rolleyes:

Edited by O.S.O.K.
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i have other weapons that i'll name just for refference,

Savage .22

Thank you all for your replay!

Sorry for my earlier (and possibly unfriendly appearing) post - I did not see your reference to Savage. I am definitely a Savage fan - they make the most accurate rifles, dollars for donuts, in the entire world! I own TWO Savage rifles (both of which out-shoot anything else I own), both are bolt actions, and one (the most accurate) is a .22!

 

Savage absolutely RULES, in my opinion (did I mention that I also own a Savage 12 gauge shotgun? It's a Model 69) - buy a Savage .22, like I did, and you will never, EVER be dissapointed! (FWIW, my favorite ammo is .22 CB Long - it takes a little searching to find it, but I absolutely LOVE it! CCI CB Long is the absolute best!)

 

Take care!

Edited by Bad Bob
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  • 3 months later...

You can do what i did and got a 30-06 bolt action remington and i have on order a Bohica 50 caliber upper to go on my ar-15 lower receiver. Keep the ak's and any saigas you get for close in work.(zombies) lol!!!! :super:

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  • 2 weeks later...
At those ranges, the Saiga is not what you want for a "Sniper" weapon. It is *NOT* a Sniper weapon...

 

In fact, you already have one... your Remington 700 (if in a decent caliber) is already going to shoot far better than anything else you have at those ranges. If not... think, perhaps about something else, like a Savage model 12 F-T/R... That will shoot VERY WELL at the ranges you want to shoot at.....

Yep, what he said. The Saiga is not a 500 yard gun without a LOT of work!

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Given the military use of the PSL, I fail to see the dismay at the op's request. A Saiga 308 is not going to be any less accurate than a PSL. Sure it won't preform as good as the 700, you can still land inside a man sized target at that range. I believe he asked what's the best saiga for 500 yards. Not what is the best long rifle for 500 yards.

 

100_0110.jpg

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.....I believe he asked what's the best saiga for 500 yards. Not what is the best long rifle for 500 yards....

OK, I think I see your point! :rolleyes:

 

With that thought in mind I am off to start my own thread to find out which is the best brand of chain saw to use for home brain surgery!

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.....I believe he asked what's the best saiga for 500 yards. Not what is the best long rifle for 500 yards....

OK, I think I see your point! :rolleyes:

 

With that thought in mind I am off to start my own thread to find out which is the best brand of chain saw to use for home brain surgery!

 

 

Perhaps while you are at it, you can tell all these guys to go put their chainsaws away:

 

psl_sniper.jpg

 

20070716adf8094997_170_lo.jpg

 

cuochiipeinamic9hv.jpg

 

romanian_canadian_psl_med.jpg

 

http://www.dragunov.net/psl_action.html

 

Seriously you guys know how to turn a simple question (what's the best long range saiga) into 10 pages of BS and off topic conversation.

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  • 4 weeks later...
Seriously you guys know how to turn a simple question (what's the best long range saiga) into 10 pages of BS and off topic conversation.

 

 

Welcome to the internet.

 

psl_sniper.jpg

 

While we are on the subject, i see the little 'roo on the patch, but is that a picture of mexico on the magazine?

Edited by ReverendFranz
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Seriously you guys know how to turn a simple question (what's the best long range saiga) into 10 pages of BS and off topic conversation.

 

Sorry, Compadre, but you would get a similar response if you asked (as King Arthur did, in 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail') how to use sheeps' bladders to prevent earthquakes.

 

Saigas are NOT target rifles - just as sheeps' bladders can NOT be used, in any way, shape, or form, to prevent earthquakes...

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  • 2 weeks later...
Seriously you guys know how to turn a simple question (what's the best long range saiga) into 10 pages of BS and off topic conversation.

 

Sorry, Compadre, but you would get a similar response if you asked (as King Arthur did, in 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail') how to use sheeps' bladders to prevent earthquakes.

 

Saigas are NOT target rifles - just as sheeps' bladders can NOT be used, in any way, shape, or form, to prevent earthquakes...

 

not 100% true.

 

there are individual saigas and other AKs that are capable of amazing (for an AK design) accuracy. :wub:

 

IMGP0297.jpg

 

IMGP0303.jpg

 

2MOA Romy G on a NDS-1 with an elcheapoo 2.5 x scout scope and the elcheapo barrle clamped rail whore mount.

 

and a 2MOA Milled Mak 90

 

Picture086.jpg

 

like I have said before my 20" saiga 308 will do amazing things.

 

other people have them in 223 that are equally amazing. but such things are luck of the draw.

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Seriously you guys know how to turn a simple question (what's the best long range saiga) into 10 pages of BS and off topic conversation.

 

Sorry, Compadre, but you would get a similar response if you asked (as King Arthur did, in 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail') how to use sheeps' bladders to prevent earthquakes.

 

Saigas are NOT target rifles - just as sheeps' bladders can NOT be used, in any way, shape, or form, to prevent earthquakes...

 

not 100% true.

 

there are individual saigas and other AKs that are capable of amazing (for an AK design) accuracy. :wub:

 

like I have said before my 20" saiga 308 will do amazing things.

 

other people have them in 223 that are equally amazing. but such things are luck of the draw.

Uhhh, nothing against your weapon but those sure aren't sniper results. Last sniping class I took we started by having to break a Necco wafer at 100 yards with one shot...

Edited by Glocker
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  • 2 weeks later...
not 100% true.

 

there are individual saigas and other AKs that are capable of amazing (for an AK design) accuracy.

 

...but such things are luck of the draw.

Thank you - I stand corrected. I agree that in many cases (including Saigas), an accurate rifle may be the "luck of the draw."

 

If your primary goal is an accurate rifle, at the lowest possible price, I would recommend a Savage bolt action (and maybe think about a Weaver V-16 scope, if a 4-16 scope fits your needs - I've had great results! ;>). And even then, don't forget that you will have to try various bullet weights/factory ammo to find the most accurate combination of rifle and ammunition.

 

(I load my own, but factory ammo always provides a great starting point... ;>)

 

And never forget that reality may not match your expectations, with regard to bullet weight, twist, etc., as it relates to accuracy. I know from experience (on multiple occasions ;>)...

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  • 2 weeks later...

Uhhh, nothing against your weapon but those sure aren't sniper results. Last sniping class I took we started by having to break a Necco wafer at 100 yards with one shot...

 

He didn't show pics of his Saiga 20" .308 which was to be more amazing.

 

I know it is not sniper accuracy, but I thought his Romy G shot pretty good. I'd take it.

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Given the military use of the PSL, I fail to see the dismay at the op's request.

 

Being an owner of both Saiga and PSL I'd say op's request is a wishful thinking. Saiga has weaker receiver, shorter barrel, more slop of the internals. I have side-by-side pictures here. If you want relatively cheap accurate semi-auto, get PSL or Vepr'.

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Saigas are NOT target rifles - just as sheeps' bladders can NOT be used, in any way, shape, or form, to prevent earthquakes...

 

 

What if you tied two sheeps' bladders together?

Who knows? It might be like mounting a couple of Ruger 10/22s in one of those mounts with the crank that pulls the triggers...

 

;>)

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Hmm...santanatwo, the groupings aren't bad, no doubt.

 

But the OP was for a 500 yard shot and considering your groupings were based on 50 yards to 120, well...I'm not sure if that's an accurate indicator of what the rifle can do at 500. As a matter of fact, one plate suggests that none of the rounds would have hit the target at that range (the rapid fire plate w/ a 6" spread).

 

I'm no slouch with the saiga .308 but at 500 yards I'm going to aim high and praying for a hit on center mass. Sniping to me is a precision shot, as in "in your eyeball" at 500 yards, which the rifle most likely isn't going to be able to do consistently.

But maybe someone out there with the 30-06 rifle can see what that weapon can do at that range.

Personally, I think a competent rifleman will be able to hit targets at 500 with the saiga .308, as long as the target was in the open. Partial obstructions reduces the likelihood of a clean hit but then again, the .308 is pretty good at turning cover into concealment.

 

My two cents.

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Just to be clear: a Dragunov is not an AK. Entirely different action, receiver, barrel, etc. The .308 and 30-06 Saigas are modified AKs, not Dragunov/SVD-type rifles, so using the military application of the SVD as justificaiton for recommending a Saiga as a DMR is a bit wrong.

 

That said, I think the .308 is the best choice. Why? Because more has been put into refining .308 loads for accuracy than for any other common (not benchrest) round out there.

 

I still think you are better off buying a Savage at Wal-Mart. It will cost you less, and the results will be significantly better.

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  • 2 weeks later...
I still think you are better off buying a Savage at Wal-Mart. It will cost you less, and the results will be significantly better.

Being the owner of two Savage rifles (one .223 heavy barrel bought new, the other a .30-06 bought for about the price of a used 10-22, bought used), I would agree. The .223 likes Federal AE 50 gr hollow points, and the .30-06 for some reason likes match ammo designed for M1 Garands. You want to put a hole in something small, at long range, on a budget, there's absolutely nothing better than a Savage bolt action. Just try different loads, until you find what it likes, and then you're sittin' pretty...

 

Just my opinion...

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I still think you are better off buying a Savage at Wal-Mart. It will cost you less, and the results will be significantly better.

Being the owner of two Savage rifles (one .223 heavy barrel bought new, the other a .30-06 bought for about the price of a used 10-22, bought used), I would agree. The .223 likes Federal AE 50 gr hollow points, and the .30-06 for some reason likes match ammo designed for M1 Garands. You want to put a hole in something small, at long range, on a budget, there's absolutely nothing better than a Savage bolt action. Just try different loads, until you find what it likes, and then you're sittin' pretty...

 

Just my opinion...

 

 

Precision shots at 500 yards is bolt action territory.

 

Savage is a great choice.

 

Good price.

 

Great accuracy right out of the box.

 

And you can upgrade your rig (stock, rings, glass, etc.) and skills (including hand loading) as you learn and grow.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Santanatwo, Those are pretty common bench AK results with optics. That is battle accurate, but nowhere in the neighborhood of sniper accuracy or what is required to KILL a human at 500 yards. My bolt guns and bull barrel ARs clover-leaf groups (all 5 holes touching) at the distances you shot at.

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