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Saigas subject to 922r rule? I don't think so.

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This requires us to look at section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986:

 

http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Intern...al_Revenue_Code

 

Sec. 5845. Definitions

 

For the purpose of this chapter -

(a) Firearm

The term ''firearm'' means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or

barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a

shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less

than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in

length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16

inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as

modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel

or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon,

as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer

(as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and

(8) a destructive device. The term ''firearm'' shall not include

an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or

destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the

Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value,

design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item

and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

I think the Saiga with it's 16.3 inch (I wonder if they added .3 inches just to be on the safe side of 16 inches) barrel escapes the IRS definition. I am starting to think my gun dealer might be right. I am sorry for the long posts and I hope I have not ruffled any feathers being that I have just joined the forum. I would be interested if anyone agrees with my interpretation of GCA 925(d)(3) and IRC section 5845(a)?

 

You're looking at the wrong thing. A shotgun w/ a barrell length < 18" or OAL < 26 is generally going to be a SBS (Short Barrelled Shotgun)

A rifle w/ a barrell length < 16" or OAL < 26" is a SBR

You are looking at the definitions for NFA weapons.

 

If your Saiga rifle had a barrell length under 16" it would be a SBR, and from from what I understand it would not be importable because the 68 ban forbid the importation of any NFA weapon for civilian use. It would essentially be a pre-sample. I may be wrong, but if so I'm sure someone will correct me.

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This requires us to look at section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986:

 

http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Intern...al_Revenue_Code

 

Sec. 5845. Definitions

 

For the purpose of this chapter -

(a) Firearm

The term ''firearm'' means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or

barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a

shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less

than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in

length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16

inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as

modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel

or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon,

as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer

(as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and

(8) a destructive device. The term ''firearm'' shall not include

an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or

destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the

Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value,

design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item

and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

I think the Saiga with it's 16.3 inch (I wonder if they added .3 inches just to be on the safe side of 16 inches) barrel escapes the IRS definition. I am starting to think my gun dealer might be right. I am sorry for the long posts and I hope I have not ruffled any feathers being that I have just joined the forum. I would be interested if anyone agrees with my interpretation of GCA 925(d)(3) and IRC section 5845(a)?

 

You're looking at the wrong thing. A shotgun w/ a barrell length < 18" or OAL < 26 is generally going to be a SBS (Short Barrelled Shotgun)

A rifle w/ a barrell length < 16" or OAL < 26" is a SBR

You are looking at the definitions for NFA weapons.

 

If your Saiga rifle had a barrell length under 16" it would be a SBR, and from from what I understand it would not be importable because the 68 ban forbid the importation of any NFA weapon for civilian use. It would essentially be a pre-sample. I may be wrong, but if so I'm sure someone will correct me.

 

 

I just followed the trail beginning with section 922 r of the Gun Control Act, which leads you to section 925 (d) (3) of the Gun Control Act which leads you to section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code. I think we can agree that the Saigas clear the hurdle of section 5845(a). The problem may lie in the interpretation of this portion of section 925 (d) (3):

 

"and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes".

 

I would say that my Saiga rifle would be generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes even with a 30 round clip on board. It is after all designed and marketed as a hunting rifle. I have emailed the ATF and hope to get a response which I will post here of course.

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This requires us to look at section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986:

 

http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Intern...al_Revenue_Code

 

Sec. 5845. Definitions

 

For the purpose of this chapter -

(a) Firearm

The term ''firearm'' means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or

barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a

shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less

than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in

length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16

inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as

modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel

or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon,

as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer

(as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and

(8) a destructive device. The term ''firearm'' shall not include

an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or

destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the

Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value,

design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item

and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

I think the Saiga with it's 16.3 inch (I wonder if they added .3 inches just to be on the safe side of 16 inches) barrel escapes the IRS definition. I am starting to think my gun dealer might be right. I am sorry for the long posts and I hope I have not ruffled any feathers being that I have just joined the forum. I would be interested if anyone agrees with my interpretation of GCA 925(d)(3) and IRC section 5845(a)?

 

You're looking at the wrong thing. A shotgun w/ a barrell length < 18" or OAL < 26 is generally going to be a SBS (Short Barrelled Shotgun)

A rifle w/ a barrell length < 16" or OAL < 26" is a SBR

You are looking at the definitions for NFA weapons.

 

If your Saiga rifle had a barrell length under 16" it would be a SBR, and from from what I understand it would not be importable because the 68 ban forbid the importation of any NFA weapon for civilian use. It would essentially be a pre-sample. I may be wrong, but if so I'm sure someone will correct me.

 

 

I just followed the trail beginning with section 922 r of the Gun Control Act, which leads you to section 925 (d) (3) of the Gun Control Act which leads you to section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code. I think we can agree that the Saigas clear the hurdle of section 5845(a). The problem may lie in the interpretation of this portion of section 925 (d) (3):

 

"and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes".

 

I would say that my Saiga rifle would be generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes even with a 30 round clip on board. It is after all designed and marketed as a hunting rifle. I have emailed the ATF and hope to get a response which I will post here of course.

 

If you want a legal response from Tech Branch of BATFE, you need to write them a letter, then wait 4 - 6 months from what I have been told. I've never felt ask them a question, but from what I have heard they don't reply quickly.

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This requires us to look at section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986:

 

http://www.taxalmanac.org/index.php/Intern...al_Revenue_Code

 

Sec. 5845. Definitions

 

For the purpose of this chapter -

(a) Firearm

The term ''firearm'' means (1) a shotgun having a barrel or

barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a

shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less

than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in

length; (3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16

inches in length; (4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as

modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel

or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5) any other weapon,

as defined in subsection (e); (6) a machinegun; (7) any silencer

(as defined in section 921 of title 18, United States Code); and

(8) a destructive device. The term ''firearm'' shall not include

an antique firearm or any device (other than a machinegun or

destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the

Secretary finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value,

design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector's item

and is not likely to be used as a weapon.

I think the Saiga with it's 16.3 inch (I wonder if they added .3 inches just to be on the safe side of 16 inches) barrel escapes the IRS definition. I am starting to think my gun dealer might be right. I am sorry for the long posts and I hope I have not ruffled any feathers being that I have just joined the forum. I would be interested if anyone agrees with my interpretation of GCA 925(d)(3) and IRC section 5845(a)?

 

You're looking at the wrong thing. A shotgun w/ a barrell length < 18" or OAL < 26 is generally going to be a SBS (Short Barrelled Shotgun)

A rifle w/ a barrell length < 16" or OAL < 26" is a SBR

You are looking at the definitions for NFA weapons.

 

If your Saiga rifle had a barrell length under 16" it would be a SBR, and from from what I understand it would not be importable because the 68 ban forbid the importation of any NFA weapon for civilian use. It would essentially be a pre-sample. I may be wrong, but if so I'm sure someone will correct me.

 

 

I just followed the trail beginning with section 922 r of the Gun Control Act, which leads you to section 925 (d) (3) of the Gun Control Act which leads you to section 5845(a) of the Internal Revenue Code. I think we can agree that the Saigas clear the hurdle of section 5845(a). The problem may lie in the interpretation of this portion of section 925 (d) (3):

 

"and is generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes".

 

I would say that my Saiga rifle would be generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes even with a 30 round clip on board. It is after all designed and marketed as a hunting rifle. I have emailed the ATF and hope to get a response which I will post here of course.

 

The problem is that you are in the wrong area. With the possible exception of the antique stuff everything there is NFA. You can't legally own a shotgun which is less than 26" OAL or has a barrell under 18" unless it's legally registered & tax paid. The same holds true w/ rifles under 26"/16", AOWs, DDs, MGs, and Suppressors.

 

A normal shotgun must have a barrell length of >= 18", and an OAL >= 26".

A normal rifle must have a barrell length of >= 16", and an OAL >= 26".

 

5845a is essentially just definitions of NFA weapons, which are non-sporting by their nature. I think you are going way out on a limb to say that because your rifle is not an NFA weapon you don't have to meet 922r. I have heard the opposite argument and agree with it & that's if it's NFA it doesn't have to meet 922r because it is non-sporting by definition.

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I would say that my Saiga rifle would be generally recognized as particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes even with a 30 round clip on board. It is after all designed and marketed as a hunting rifle. I have emailed the ATF and hope to get a response which I will post here of course.

 

Not to put too blunt a point on this, but we've been over this several times before. You don't get to decide what makes your firearm "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes". The ATF does. While the ATF was at it they declared that using a high-capacity magazine removes the Saiga from it's approved import configuration and thus makes 922r applicable.

 

The letters from the ATF are available on this forum if you use the search function.

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Not to put too blunt a point on this, but we've been over this several times before. You don't get to decide what makes your firearm "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes". The ATF does. While the ATF was at it they declared that using a high-capacity magazine removes the Saiga from it's approved import configuration and thus makes 922r applicable.

 

The letters from the ATF are available on this forum if you use the search function.

 

Exactly! ATF makes whatever wierd rulings they wish at a given time. Unfortunately all we can do is comply as best we know how, but IMO you always want to err on the side of caution. It's not worth $50, $100, or even $200 to cut a corner when you are dealing w/ these people. They have no sense of humor, almost limitless budget, and if you come to their attention they can grind you into the pavement. Do you really think that the big importers would be paying good money to convert rifles if it was legal w/o doing it? They pay lawyers to find the proper way of doing things. They are not going to spend $100+ per rifle to convert it if no conversion was necessary. People have been over those laws literally thousands of times. The chance of a discovery of that magnitude is essentially nil at this point.

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... if it's NFA it doesn't have to meet 922r...

 

This is correct. When you SBS/SBR a weapon you are re-manufacturing it, in legal tems. Thus it is no longer an imported firearm.

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Not to put too blunt a point on this, but we've been over this several times before. You don't get to decide what makes your firearm "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes". The ATF does. While the ATF was at it they declared that using a high-capacity magazine removes the Saiga from it's approved import configuration and thus makes 922r applicable.

 

The letters from the ATF are available on this forum if you use the search function.

 

Exactly! ATF makes whatever wierd rulings they wish at a given time. Unfortunately all we can do is comply as best we know how, but IMO you always want to err on the side of caution. It's not worth $50, $100, or even $200 to cut a corner when you are dealing w/ these people. They have no sense of humor, almost limitless budget, and if you come to their attention they can grind you into the pavement. Do you really think that the big importers would be paying good money to convert rifles if it was legal w/o doing it? They pay lawyers to find the proper way of doing things. They are not going to spend $100+ per rifle to convert it if no conversion was necessary. People have been over those laws literally thousands of times. The chance of a discovery of that magnitude is essentially nil at this point.

 

 

I give up everybody else wins. So I will have to decide whether or not to change my name to 10round or spend more money to do the mods.

 

All of this talk might be a moot point if the supreme court upholds the DC gun ban, then cities all across the USA will probably enact there own bans.

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All of this talk might be a moot point if the supreme court upholds the DC gun ban, then cities all across the USA will probably enact there own bans.

 

The DC ban is going down. I think at this point the question becomes how strictly the SC decides to interpret the 2A. They might surprise us, but there is a huge amount of paperwork which shows the 2A was intended to protect an individual right, and essentially *NONE* which shows it to be a "collective" right. How do you have a collective right? Exactly *WHERE* did the founding fathers use "right" in any context other than an individual right belonging to the people. Have faith things will get a little better w/ Heller IMO.

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I give up everybody else wins. So I will have to decide whether or not to change my name to 10round or spend more money to do the mods.

Worry not, that's what this forum is here for. To help you stay within the law.

 

If you are using three part US mags like the Surefire ones, you might only need as few as one more part to make your Saiga complaint.

 

Why don't you post what you've got/done to your rifle and we can help you along.

Edited by ClickClickD'oh

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I give up everybody else wins. So I will have to decide whether or not to change my name to 10round or spend more money to do the mods.

All of this talk might be a moot point if the supreme court upholds the DC gun ban, then cities all across the USA will probably enact there own bans.

 

Get some US-made 30-rd mags (Surefire or MasterMold) and change out the gas piston (about $15). Then you can use the 30-rd mags and be compliant with 922R.

 

Jim

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I give up everybody else wins. So I will have to decide whether or not to change my name to 10round or spend more money to do the mods.

All of this talk might be a moot point if the supreme court upholds the DC gun ban, then cities all across the USA will probably enact there own bans.

 

Get some US-made 30-rd mags (Surefire or MasterMold) and change out the gas piston (about $15). Then you can use the 30-rd mags and be compliant with 922R.

 

Jim

 

Or you can adopt another commonly held belief of just not caring about 922r.

 

I would really love to see them prosecute someone/anyone for a 922r violation it would be a field day in court and a chance to challenge the sporting clause of the import ban or even the GCA.

 

I still haven't even heard of a case where they arrested someone for a 922r violation.

Edited by reoiv

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I still haven't even heard of a case where they arrested someone for a 922r violation.
.... and you probably never will.

 

It is commonly assumed that it will always be an "add on" charge, after you (and your gun(s)) come to their attention for something else.

 

I, for one, do not have the deep pockets to throw a "field day" in court.

Edited by nalioth

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I'm not worried about the deep pockets.

 

I have no criminal record, don't do drugs, have a good job, college education and would be a perfect candidate for challenging 922r if they ever arrested someone for it. The only way it could be better is if I were an ex-police officer or soldier.

 

I'm quite sure I could get quite a number of gun groups behind me to pay for the legal costs let alone some lawyers that would love to stick it to the govt in a high profile case.

 

All it takes is for the BATFE to screw up and bust someone like me and its all over.

 

Which is why they will only use it as a stack on charge which they'd drop in a second if the lawyer calls them on it.

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... if it's NFA it doesn't have to meet 922r...

 

This is correct. When you SBS/SBR a weapon you are re-manufacturing it, in legal tems. Thus it is no longer an imported firearm.

 

 

Then, according to that....then why no new... or Re manufactured FA????

or is it that I could still FA if the firearm was pre '84?

 

Not looking to FA BTW..... Just trying to get a better understanding.....

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Then, according to that....then why no new... or Re manufactured FA????

or is it that I could still FA if the firearm was pre '84?

 

Not looking to FA BTW..... Just trying to get a better understanding.....

They closed the machine gun registry in 1986. What full auto is here, is here. When one burns up, that's one less in the pool.

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How about no more FA... because no one has the BALLS TO CHALLENGE THEIR UNCONSTITUTIONAL INFRINGEMENT of our 2nd amendment rights!!!!

 

Hows THAT grab ya?

 

 

:smoke:

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What full auto is here, is here. When one burns up, that's one less in the pool.

 

Like the 6 Million Dollar Man, "We can rebuild them".

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How about no more FA... because no one has the BALLS TO CHALLENGE THEIR UNCONSTITUTIONAL INFRINGEMENT of our 2nd amendment rights!!!!

 

Hows THAT grab ya?

 

 

:smoke:

 

Somebody has challenged their unconstitutional infringement of our 2nd Amendment rights. It's called Heller & the Supreme Court is supposed to decide on it this summer. If all goes well the DC gun ban will be history, and we will have the Supreme Court on record as deciding the 2nd is an individual right. Then we can challenge Chicago's gun ban, and I think the 86 ban will be in the short list of challenges. 34 might be a lot harder since NFA toys don't have a lot of public support, at least until they pull the trigger on one! :haha:

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The '34 NFA has already been before the SCOTUS and it was upheld.. because it's not actually a ban. It's a tax. It gained the effect of a ban in '86 when the registry was closed. If the issue does come before the court again we are likely to see the registry ordered re-opened, but that's it.

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How about no more FA... because no one has the BALLS TO CHALLENGE THEIR UNCONSTITUTIONAL INFRINGEMENT of our 2nd amendment rights!!!!

 

Hows THAT grab ya?

 

 

:smoke:

 

Somebody has challenged their unconstitutional infringement of our 2nd Amendment rights. It's called Heller & the Supreme Court is supposed to decide on it this summer. If all goes well the DC gun ban will be history, and we will have the Supreme Court on record as deciding the 2nd is an individual right. Then we can challenge Chicago's gun ban, and I think the 86 ban will be in the short list of challenges. 34 might be a lot harder since NFA toys don't have a lot of public support, at least until they pull the trigger on one! :haha:

my understanding from the last court ruling was the DC gun ban is over now, and they firmly protected the 2nd amendment rights. As far as the other bans, good luck on that

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Not to put too blunt a point on this, but we've been over this several times before. You don't get to decide what makes your firearm "particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes". The ATF does. While the ATF was at it they declared that using a high-capacity magazine removes the Saiga from it's approved import configuration and thus makes 922r applicable.

 

The letters from the ATF are available on this forum if you use the search function.

 

Exactly! ATF makes whatever wierd rulings they wish at a given time. Unfortunately all we can do is comply as best we know how, but IMO you always want to err on the side of caution. It's not worth $50, $100, or even $200 to cut a corner when you are dealing w/ these people. They have no sense of humor, almost limitless budget, and if you come to their attention they can grind you into the pavement. Do you really think that the big importers would be paying good money to convert rifles if it was legal w/o doing it? They pay lawyers to find the proper way of doing things. They are not going to spend $100+ per rifle to convert it if no conversion was necessary. People have been over those laws literally thousands of times. The chance of a discovery of that magnitude is essentially nil at this point.

 

 

I give up everybody else wins. So I will have to decide whether or not to change my name to 10round or spend more money to do the mods.

 

All of this talk might be a moot point if the supreme court upholds the DC gun ban, then cities all across the USA will probably enact there own bans.

 

I'm with you 30 rounder. My saiga 7.62 is over the counter, un modified and will stay that way.

I bought a sling for it at wallmart

I bought a red dot scope for it from walmart

I bought a Pitcanny rail UTG 973 side mount rail for the red dot scope from the internet

 

I would like to buy a 20 round polimer magazine [fully USA made] from Promag in Calif.

 

However no one really has a clue if this one mag makes the rifle unlawful or not.

 

I give up too

:unsure:

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I would like to buy a 20 round polimer magazine [fully USA made] from Promag in Calif.

 

However no one really has a clue if this one mag makes the rifle unlawful or not.

 

I give up too

:unsure:

Yes, unfortunately under the current ATF enforcement policies, using a high-capacity magazine in a Saiga does make them fall under 922 and thus need to meet parts counts.

 

The good news for you though is that if you do buy one of the poly pro-mags that counts as three parts, which means you would only need one more part to be legally compliant. Something as simply as a US made handgaurd from TAPCO and you will be completely legal.

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I would like to buy a 20 round polimer magazine [fully USA made] from Promag in Calif.

 

However no one really has a clue if this one mag makes the rifle unlawful or not.

 

I give up too

:unsure:

Yes, unfortunately under the current ATF enforcement policies, using a high-capacity magazine in a Saiga does make them fall under 922 and thus need to meet parts counts.

 

The good news for you though is that if you do buy one of the poly pro-mags that counts as three parts, which means you would only need one more part to be legally compliant. Something as simply as a US made handgaurd from TAPCO and you will be completely legal.

yep or even just the gas piston =D its a stupid law, but it is a law, so w/e....support american business ;)

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How about no more FA... because no one has the BALLS TO CHALLENGE THEIR UNCONSTITUTIONAL INFRINGEMENT of our 2nd amendment rights!!!!

 

Hows THAT grab ya?

 

 

:smoke:

 

True, nobody has the balls . . . because the consequences for losing in time in Club-Fed . . .

 

Larry

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How about no more FA... because no one has the BALLS TO CHALLENGE THEIR UNCONSTITUTIONAL INFRINGEMENT of our 2nd amendment rights!!!!

 

Hows THAT grab ya?

 

 

:smoke:

 

True, nobody has the balls . . . because the consequences for losing in time in Club-Fed . . .

 

Larry

 

Anybody know the maximum punishment for breaking 922r? I was curious to know this and went through the laws and several threads but could not find anything other than "it is unlawful......"

Edited by OC80mg

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How about no more FA... because no one has the BALLS TO CHALLENGE THEIR UNCONSTITUTIONAL INFRINGEMENT of our 2nd amendment rights!!!!

 

Hows THAT grab ya?

 

 

:smoke:

 

True, nobody has the balls . . . because the consequences for losing in time in Club-Fed . . .

 

Larry

 

Anybody know the maximum punishment for breaking 922r? I was curious to know this and went through the laws and several threads but could not find anything other than "it is unlawful......"

i believe its written that way so the punishment can be accordingly, OR they can do as they wish if they wish to make a example out of you. :devil:

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922® says ASSEMBLE. Possession is not forbidden. Also ASSEMBLE as I read it is for manufacturers not Joe Sixpack. IMHO you can do whatever you want so long as the barrel is legal length and it aint full-auto.

But if you want to support U.S. parts makers go buy their stuff.

 

So far there have been NO 922® prosecutions at all so until that happens anyone can argue that I'm mistaken but nobody can prove me wrong.

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