New .308 Ammo outperforms regular 30-06 hunting ammo !!!

[iteachsurfing 50]

Doing some research I came across this ammo by Hornady.

https://www.hornady.com/shop/Ammo_LMHM_popup.htm

Its a .308 Light Magnum Ammo that by the numbers outperforms regular 30-06 hunting ammo by Fusion

But my question is ... "can it be used safely in a stock Saiga .308?"

or

Would it require Recoil Buffers and/or gas port modifications etc.?

 

If it could be made to work, it would effectively turn your .308 into a 30-06 alternative.

Thus, making for a great mountain & camping, maybe even a hunting rifle.

Plus, I think it would be a lot easier than trying to convert a Model 100.

 

Please let me know...

 

 

Here's the numbers;

 

Hornady .308 165 gr.

Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 yards

V 2880 2668 2465 2272 2087 1911

E 3038 2607 2226 1890 1595 1337

 

Fusion 30-06 165 gr.

Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500 yards

V 2790 2590 2399 2217 2042 1875

E 2852 2458 2109 1800 1527 1287

[gunnysmith 4]

**Light Magnum and Heavy Magnum ammunition is not intended for use in semi-automatic or gas operated firearms

[iteachsurfing 50]

**Light Magnum and Heavy Magnum ammunition is not intended for use in semi-automatic or gas operated firearms

 

I know, I read that also.

I was thinking that Saiga's were not your average Semi Automatic.

For example, I've heard that the Saiga .223 can handle 5.56 Ammo.

With that in mind can't a stock Saiga handle more pressure and abuse than most Semi Auto 308's

Or Could it be made to handle it by installing Recoil Buffers and/or gas port modifications etc.?

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Yep, and the 300 savage outperforms the 308...

 

If the mfr specifically tells you not to use it in an autoloader, it's probably outside of the specifications that even bolt guns are proofed for.

[snake54 0]

This ammo has a slower burning powder that is outside the specs for autoloaders. Rifles such as the M14 and Garand sre very specific in the pressure curves. The Saiga is probably similiar in its requirements.

[iteachsurfing 50]

This ammo has a slower burning powder that is outside the specs for autoloaders. Rifles such as the M14 and Garand sre very specific in the pressure curves. The Saiga is probably similiar in its requirements.

 

I'm agreeing with all the comments here that these loads are outside the stock specs.

However, I'm thinking it could work with basic & easy internal conversion parts.

Most conversions replace these parts any way. So why not upgrade with;

 

Stiffer Springs

Heavy duty Recoil buffers

Heaver more durable piston

Reinforced Gas tube with a regulator for regular or light loads.

 

Create the "Saiga .308 Magnum"

I kinda like the sound of that.

 

Seriously I'm curious, how much beefier are the model 100 Components, internals & parts,

Compared to that of the IZ-137 so it can handle 30-06 pressures?

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

If it could be made to work, it would effectively turn your .308 into a 30-06 alternative.

Thus, making for a great mountain & camping, maybe even a hunting rifle.

 

Who what now?

 

... and here I was laboring under the misconception that the .308 was already an excellent choice in hunting ammunition for just about any critter on the continent..

[iteachsurfing 50]

If it could be made to work, it would effectively turn your .308 into a 30-06 alternative.

Thus, making for a great mountain & camping, maybe even a hunting rifle.

 

Who what now?

 

... and here I was laboring under the misconception that the .308 was already an excellent choice in hunting ammunition for just about any critter on the continent..

 

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

Yeah, so?

 

A good vitals shot from range will put that down just as dead as any other critter on the continent using a .308.

 

If you are looking for a brush defense gun, .30-06 nor .308 are your answer. .45-70 or 12ga slug are your answer.

[mr. fudd 0]

With bullet weights of 150 grains or less, the .308 keeps right up with the .30-06 and in some cases surpasses it. It's only when you get into the heavy stuff that .30-06 really starts to do better.

[DaveInGA 0]

If it could be made to work, it would effectively turn your .308 into a 30-06 alternative.

Thus, making for a great mountain & camping, maybe even a hunting rifle.

 

Who what now?

 

... and here I was laboring under the misconception that the .308 was already an excellent choice in hunting ammunition for just about any critter on the continent..

 

If you wanna go around grizzly bear, you might want to contact the Alaska or Canadian game commissions and get their recommendations for a good rifle in that application. I'm willing to bet it won't be .308 caliber. A grizzly is a HUGE, fast, smart and extremely deadly animal. Playing grab rear in their stomping grounds without enough gun is a good way to get eaten for lunch.

 

I suggest you forget about hot rounds and think bigger gun per the advice of the game commissions up where the bears are. You'll find even if you take a smaller caliber up there to hunt, the guides you're with will be carrying enough gun and you'd be better off to.

 

Just my .02,

 

Dave

Edited April 20, 2008 by DaveInGA

[iteachsurfing 50]

Actually I agree with everyone so far.

I think a .308 with a well placed shot would do the trick on just about any animal.

My worries aren't Grizzlies, rather Black Bears found in my neck of the woods.

For the surprise encounter where a calm well placed shot might not happen,

I just want the most power I can get out of my .308 without any safety issues.

By the way has anyone had any sucess in their 308's with:

Extreme Shock's New .308 Big-Game Hunting Round

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/st...id=5650634.7024

I did the math and I'm thinking this one might be too hot as well.

Extreme Shock 308 168Gr. V 2750 fps = E 2820.51 ft-lbs

[hawk78 0]

Actually I agree with everyone so far.

I think a .308 with a well placed shot would do the trick on just about any animal.

My worries aren't Grizzlies, rather Black Bears found in my neck of the woods.

For the surprise encounter where a calm well placed shot might not happen,

I just want the most power I can get out of my .308 without any safety issues.

By the way has anyone had any sucess in their 308's with:

Extreme Shock's New .308 Big-Game Hunting Round

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/st...id=5650634.7024

I did the math and I'm thinking this one might be too hot as well.

Extreme Shock 308 168Gr. V 2750 fps = E 2820.51 ft-lbs

 

Higher velocity and energy means nothing compared to choosing the proper bullet for the intended game. Within each respective caliber of course. If you may need the extra penetration look at a better constructed bullet like a Barnes TSX or a Nosler Partition. That Extreme Shock loading I believe is far from a big-game bullet. The boat-tail-hollow-point design and the description of "controlled penetration" & "tactical" lead me to believe you'll experience failure on contact with thick skin or bone. Please don't link muzzle energy directly to killing power, it's just not true.

Edited April 22, 2008 by hawk78

[rccola 0]

I may be mistaken on both counts, but..

 

1.I thought BRG3 had inspected a s100 30.06 and determined that the internals were basically identical to the .308 .. I must be wrong on this or someone would have worked out a conversion..

 

2.If the extreme shock ammo you linked to is half as good as it says, it's twice as good as any of their other products. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

Edited April 22, 2008 by rccola

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

Extreme Shock's New .308 Big-Game Hunting Round

 

Does it cause pants to explode?

[normnip 1]

Actually I agree with everyone so far.

I think a .308 with a well placed shot would do the trick on just about any animal.

My worries aren't Grizzlies, rather Black Bears found in my neck of the woods.

For the surprise encounter where a calm well placed shot might not happen,

I just want the most power I can get out of my .308 without any safety issues.

By the way has anyone had any sucess in their 308's with:

Extreme Shock's New .308 Big-Game Hunting Round

http://www.extremeshockusa.com/cgistore/st...id=5650634.7024

I did the math and I'm thinking this one might be too hot as well.

Extreme Shock 308 168Gr. V 2750 fps = E 2820.51 ft-lbs

 

 

Reply: Although this doesn't directly address your question about Extreme Shock .308 ammo here's a link I hope you find helpful like I did:

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot23.htm

 

I'm in my fifties and I think it's still true to be careful when relying on the 'latest and greatest' new ammo, especially when looking for bear, proverbial or otherwise. The'Box O' Truth' indeed!

[macbeau 902]

But my question is ... "can it be used safely in a stock Saiga .308?"

or

Would it require Recoil Buffers and/or gas port modifications etc.?

 

If it could be made to work, it would effectively turn your .308 into a 30-06 alternative.

Thus, making for a great mountain & camping, maybe even a hunting rifle.

Plus, I think it would be a lot easier than trying to convert a Model 100.

 

Please let me know...

 

 

Just get an S-100 in 30-06 or go with an S-308 with standard "performance" ammo. If the manufacturer warns against using their product in a semi-auto, I'd heed that advice.

My opinion is that (by using this ammo) you'll either damage the front trunnion, the bolt, the bolt carrier, the rear trunnion, the stamped receiver, rivets that hold it all together or any combination of the above - With or without stronger springs, bigger (actually - should be smaller) gas ports, recoil buffers or elfen magic... Better to be safe than sorry.

If you want 30-06 performance for "bears", just go with the S-100 in 30-06 (and stay away from the Hornady 30-06 light magnums as they are not for semi-auto's either - Including BAR"S)... That is - If my opinion counts for squat...

Better yet - ask Tony!

Me thinks you are asking too much from the S-308 in versitility and application... (insofar as ammo is concerned...)

You'd probably be better served with something in .444 Marlin, 45-70 Govt, .338 Win Mag, .35 Wheelan, etc...

 

Macbeau sends...

Edited April 23, 2008 by macbeau

[mudrock 0]

You can find a first-hand report on the Extreme Shock .308 at this link. The writer describes a deer shot at 100 yards.

 

http://californiahuntingtoday.com/hogblog/?p=487

 

Money quote: "From my somewhat amateur autopsy, it looked like the bullet performed exactly as advertised, breaking up immediately as it passed through the skin and practically exploding into the abdominal cavity. The destruction was impressive, to put it mildly, and there was no exit wound at all. I was amazed that this deer ran another step, much less 100 yards. Internal organs were a jellied mess."

 

There's a photo of the wound and it does indeed look impressive.

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

You can find a first-hand report on the Extreme Shock .308 at this link. The writer describes a deer shot at 100 yards.

 

Well, if you really feel like paying $60 for a box of ammo to do that... it's your money.

 

Before you do that though, you might want to click on the link below to my Photobucket account. It's graphic, so no kiddies. It's the inside of the entry wound on a doe I took this year using my Saiga .308-1 and Hornady 150gr SSTs.. which only cost $26 per box around here.

 

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r100/mdorbust/entry.jpg

 

Either I shot that deer with a high velocity softball, or this off the shelf, affordable hunting ammunition was quite capable of generating a devastating shock injury.

 

Trust me, save your money, get the Hornady instead of the Extreme Shock.

[hawk78 0]

[1TIME 1]

I GREW UP IN A VILLAGE JUST WEST OF KODIAK ISLAND HERE IN THE "A to the K" I HUNT WITH A DPMS LR 308 FLUTED 24" LOADED WITH 168 TAP AMAX AMMO I HAVE NO FEAR OF NOT BEING ABLE TO DROP A BEAR WITH MY CHOICE OF ROUND BESIDES ANYONE THAT LIVES IN SERIOUS BEAR CUNTRY WILL TELL YOU ONLY AIM FOR THE VITALS IF YOU ARE HUNTING BEAR AND ARE LUCKY ENUF TO SPOT THEM FIRST OTHER THEN THAT YOU SHOULD AIM FOR THE SHOULDERS, NECK,SPINE ANY THING TO STOP THEM FROM RUNNING IN YOUR DIRECTION VITAL SHOTS WONT HELP IF THE BEAST IS 4O FT AWAY THE BEST FOR BEAR IS A 12GA LOADED WITH THE HEAVYEST BUCK YOU CAN FIND SO YOU CAN DO SOME SERIOUS BONE BREAKING AT BITEY SCRACHY LEVELS OF CQC THATS WHY MY HUNTING CAMP GUN IS A S12 WITH A 10 ROUNDER FIRST RND IS BIRD SHOT TO TRY AND SCARE OFF IF THAT DOES NOT WORK THEN A 1oz ROTWEIEL SLUG FOLLOWED BY 8 RNDS OF BUCK SHOT

[patriot 7,197]

The simple answer is: If you want more power, get a bigger gun. That said, 308 is sufficient for hunting anything in North America.

[netpackrat 566]

A2DAK told you exactly right about taking a bear down at close range, and while a .308 may be enough at longer ranges, you won't find very many people intentionally hunting bear with a caliber that small. Hunters up here generally start out with a .300 or .338 winmag, and go up from there. A .416 is not considered overkill; you want to use the biggest rifle you can handle with well constructed expanding bullets. For a "just in case" gun for up close and personal work, it is tough to beat a pump 12 gauge loaded with full diameter foster slugs (no sabots or buckshot!). Personally, I prefer something light and handy, but with a little more velocity:

[netpackrat 566]

Oh, by the way, there is nothing new about that Light Magnum ammo; it has been out for at least 10 years.

[1liter 20]

I'm sure you guys have seen Tony's 30-06 from a Saiga.

[netpackrat 566]

I'm sure you guys have seen Tony's 30-06 from a Saiga.

 

Needs a BAR mag.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Here's why you CAN'T use hornady light magnum ammo in a typical autoloader, and beefing up the springs, buffer, gas tube, or piston won't change it:

 

A typical pressure curve goes up really fast and then drops off almost as fast. I know this because I measured the velocity of a typical round at multiple barrel lengths and went backwards using a numerical differential equation spreadsheet.

Bruce Wayne: Am I supposed to understand that?

Lucius Fox: No, I just wanted you to understand how hard it was.

 

So that max pressure that a gun was designed for is only reached for a short time. One way to push the envelope with ballistics for a given round is to develop a powder that doesn't go above the max pressure of the round, but hangs out at higher pressure longer. This powder also has to develop the full pressure fast enough. Some powders may burn slow but not make it to a high enough pressure fast enough to make a difference. This is the kind of thing that people with advanced degrees spend time working on and may or may not develop.

 

How does that affect autoloaders? In a bolt action, the only thing to worry about is does it exceed the max pressure for a barrel at a given point. (The barrel can be thinner at the muzzle because the pressure is lower by the time the bullet gets there.) But in an autoloader, the pressure at any given point affects the cycling mechanism, in any recoil or gas system that I am aware of with the exception of Benelli's recoil operated rotating bolt shotguns. By the time the bullet passes the gas port, the pressure is pretty low. The pressure may be much higher than the gas port is designed for, even if it's nowhere near the max pressure.

 

I can think of two ways that a semi-auto can be damaged from excessive port pressure, and they can work together to make a third way.

1. Excess cycling force. Bending a piston, torqueing a bolt and bolt carrier. This is what happens when you fire a hunting load in an M1 Garand.

2. Cycling with a higher pressure in the case still in the chamber. Extractor damage and wear on the bearing surfaces of the bolt lugs. This happened to the M16 carbines.

3. Applying excess cycling force is bad enough when all you're fighting against is the mass of the reciprocating parts. Combine that with a bolt that doesn't want to turn and you're looking to break your action.

4. I just thought of another reason. Say your bolt carrier and bolt have no problem unlocking at higher speed with higher forces. You start to eject your case with the pressure higher than it otherwise would be. All kinds of things could happen because of that, including a nice little explosion that may or may not be contained inside your action.

 

So if you feel like donating your autoloader to science, buy some light magnum ammo and rig up a way to fire your Saiga remotely while you stay safe. But don't even consider firing it with yourself or anyone else close by.

 

The ONLY way this might EVER work would be if a semi-auto was designed with an adjustable gas system SPECIFICALLY with this round in mind. It would probably need a system that delayed unlocking the bolt longer than usual, had a high reciprocating mass, a long gas system with a gas port far from the chamber, and a very long separation from regular and light magnum load settings. Many of these elements favor rifles that are semi-auto only, so a design based on a select fire rifle would be a bad candidate. You might start thinking of the FAL, but while I think that the 3-lug Saiga-308 and 30-06 can handle hunting loads, the FAL was designed for 7.62 NATO ammunition ONLY and should not be fed commercial 308 on any gas setting. In its case, it really is an issue of chamber pressure.

 

BTW, for the 223 vs 5.56 issue in a Saiga 223, keep in mind that the Saiga-223's bolt was designed for 7.62x39mm and that marking it 223 instead of 5.56 was probably necessary for importation, since 5.56 is a military round. That and I have never heard of a specific rifle chambered for 223 that couldn't handle the pressure of 5.56, since most rifles are either designed for military/LE or based on 308 sporting rifles.

[frankd4 1]

fo brown bear close up .375HH or 45/70 with hard cast round just in case file off your front site so it wont hurt as bad.

[DS12 1]

just in case file off your front site so it wont hurt as bad.

 

lol