Value of real Saiga 12C' ?

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

I'm a newbie and I just picked up a Saiga 12C SBS and have a few questions to anyone that can help. The Saige is a true 12C not a conversion and I was curious of the value vs a converted Saiga 12. Also curious how many were imported? Any help would be great!!! Thanks in advance......

[Franky 2]

Can you post a picture to see all the bells and whistles?

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

The Saiga 12C in at my class 3 dealer waiting for my paper work to arrive because it is a SBS. I will take a few pictures this week and post them. It is marked "Law Enforcement Only" SAIGA 12C.

[RDSWriter 5]

I am not an appraiser or dealer, but I have been shooting and collecting Saiga 12s since 1998 when the first batch from Kalashnikov USA hit the US shores. I'm sure others will disagree with me, but the S12C is one of the most collectible semiauto AKs in my opinion. That being said, I believe that they are worth more in their original configuration as compared to an SBS. Here's my reasoning:

 

1. As an LEO firearm that was imported between Sept 14, 1994, and Sept 14, 2004, Saiga 12Cs can be lawfully sold to 'civilians' without any 922r compliance parts installed. Sterling Nixon affirmed this via a Tech Branch response letter. This letter was in support of the BATFEs FAQ/guidance that ALL LEO firearms imported during the AWB that met the definition of 'semiautomatic assault weapon' can now be legally sold to qualifying non-LEO individuals. (I know that some may disagree with this point, but there is a Tech Branch letter on the web - I've got to find the link - stating as much. Additionally, think if the implications of saying the S12C is unsporting in it's original configuration and thus subject to 922r. Only sporting firearms can be imported for civilian sale; if the S12C is unsporting in its orginal configuration than it de facto becomes a destructive device due to it's bore diameter. This unsporting re-classification - to date - has not been done by the ATF. Given that there are so few S12Cs, I think it will have the same future as the SPAS 15 and remain a non-NFA item.)

 

2. The Saiga 12Cs are the ONLY ORIGINAL Russian military weapons that have ever been imported into the US with folding stocks in their ORIGINAL military configuration that can legally be obtained by non-SOT individuals. That being said... I'm not sure that the 22" barrel is exactly 'military configuration'.

 

3. SBSs have a smaller potential market (currently).

 

Having said all of this... Saiga12Cs are interesting with regards to their value. While some conversions sell for more than an S12C, I think that most people overpay for what they buy. An S12C is an excellent deal today because the cost to build one is usually far higher than what you can plunk down and just buy an original for... if you can find one. As a whole, I think they will rise and fall with the pricing/availability of a standard S12. There's only so many original S12Cs... and there probably won't ever be anymore originals imported. So suffice to say... they will always be rare.

Edited May 28, 2008 by RDSWriter

[Henn 0]

I saw a Saiga 12C for $1100 a few months ago on another board, it only lasted a couple hours before someone bought it up.

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

RDS,, Wow that is great information. Thank you very much. I gave $1600 out the door including the $200 tax stamp and sales tax. I was thinking about having a factory barrel installed on it to bring it back to it's original looks. When I saw the looks of an AK 12 guage I just had to have it!!! I would really like to get a MD Drum for it.

 

Henn..... Sound like $1100 was a steal!!!!

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

RDS,, Wow that is great information. Thank you very much. I gave $1600 out the door including the $200 tax stamp and sales tax. I was thinking about having a factory barrel installed on it to bring it back to it's original looks. When I saw the looks of an AK 12 guage I just had to have it!!! I would really like to get a MD Drum for it.

 

Henn..... Sound like $1100 was a steal!!!!

Somebody will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that once a weapon requires a tax stamp it always does; regardless of changing the barrel.

1911

[sKott 26]

$1100 is a steal.....

Mine is a comversion using as many russian parts as the law allows. I added it up the other day and Parts, Labor and accessories (Factory Mags, Russian Sling, Kobra optics and an ACE Case) I have around $1830 invested. I don't mind though. I had to collect the parts and piece everything together for about 6 months and for me that's the fun part. (Still wish I had the Law enforcement only stamp for the extra evilness)

 

 

Things are only worth what people will pay for them. I really never intended to spend what I did on my conversion but once you jump in with both feet you are along for the ride until it's complete. If you don't you end up with a pile of junk that would be hard to sell.

 

IMHO $1600 for the SBR is not a bad price if that included the Tax stamp. I'm not sure where you would ever find a replacement barrell. I'm sure there is someone out there that really messed up the factory receiver and would sell the barrel off.

 

sKott

[RDSWriter 5]

Somebody will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that once a weapon requires a tax stamp it always does; regardless of changing the barrel.

1911

 

Not true. Once a machinegun always a machinegun. Any silencer part is always a silencer. BUT, you can remove AOWs, SBRs, SBSs and DDs from the NFA Registry because their status is dependent upon the configuration of the weapon.

 

All that is required is that you mail a letter to the NFA Branch describing the 'permanent' configuration change and request removal of the item from the NFA registry. For SBRs and SBSs you need to either install a longer barrel or completely remove and dispose the barrel. Keep in mind that you must reconfigure it prior to requesting it be removed from the registry. The BATFE should provide you with a response letter specifying that the item has been removed from the registry.

 

As for DDs (in the case of unsporting shotguns), you need to eliminate the features that make it unsporting or change the caliber to less than 0.5 inch. Case in point - One of the BATFE options to avoid DD registration per Rulings 94-1 and 94-2 was to eliminate the bore being greater than .5 inches. For the USAS, owners could remove and dispose of the barrel thereby owning a firearm that did not meet the definition of DD and hence not requiring registration. In the case of the Streetsweeper the cylinder and the barrel both had to be disposed of because the 12ga shells could still be loaded and fired with only the cylinder.

[texasakman 0]

I paid 1100.00 for mine last year and passed up two more for 950.00 and 1250.00.

The reason I passed on them was simple.................................not enough money!!

[Henn 0]

Hey taxasakman if you ever see anymore for those prices let me know! I have been kicking myself in the ass for not buying the one I saw for $1100

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

WOW I didn't think there were that many around. It seems like they are somewhat common??? Are the barrels different from a regular s12?

[RDSWriter 5]

Common... not really. The real crux of the matter is that a disproportionate number of people who own them tend to frequent this board. Check out the other boards or gunbroker, you'll rarely ever see them for sale and rarely see any blogs outside this forum abou them.

[Bvamp 604]

the 12c in ANY configuration is extremely rare. If it was cut in the US or in Russia, that will definately affect your value as well. It is the ONLY saiga firearm exempt from ATF imported parts guidelines, for a fun fact.

 

I would start the gun at 1500 sight unseen, if authentic, not even considering the condition, or the barrel length, and who made it that long. I personally forecast a 2500$ mark on that exact gun in fairly pristine original condition, without the barrel thing, which may affect an originality factor or two. If the Russians cut it, and you can prove it, it may be worth twice that, however.

 

Can we have pictures? or A picture, please?

 

also - does the gun come with its original import "label" ?

 

tool markings should be "heavy" on it, also.

[jhereg 0]

the 12c in ANY configuration is extremely rare. If it was cut in the US or in Russia, that will definately affect your value as well. It is the ONLY saiga firearm exempt from ATF imported parts guidelines, for a fun fact.

 

I would start the gun at 1500 sight unseen, if authentic, not even considering the condition, or the barrel length, and who made it that long. I personally forecast a 2500$ mark on that exact gun in fairly pristine original condition, without the barrel thing, which may affect an originality factor or two. If the Russians cut it, and you can prove it, it may be worth twice that, however.

 

Can we have pictures? or A picture, please?

 

also - does the gun come with its original import "label" ?

 

tool markings should be "heavy" on it, also.

 

 

Unless I'm missingsomething, a 12C w/ the barrel cut by the Russians would be a factory SBS. Which means that it was imported into the US as a NFA weapon. If I understand correctly any NFA item imported after 1968 is not transferrable to civilians (.gov, LE, and SOTs only). That might be more desireable, but I don't know how a non-SOT is going to legally acquire it. Anyone see anything wrong with this?

[az_shootist 0]

Any 12c SBS had to be converted (chopped) in the US by an individual or a class II manufacturer. While there is a smaller market for SBS, the market consist of collector types, and those who "must have" the objects of their desire; bear in mind, these people will pay a $200 premium just for the right of ownership. 12c's are incredibly rare, and only a small number of those will ever be an SBS. For a purist wanting a factory folder, no conversion will do (except for those few with mad fabrication skills like sKott). The problem with 12c's is that most people don't know what they are looking at. With the right informational marketing, I have not doubt you could fetch a nice premium for your weapon. Assuming your SBS was done right (and cycles like it should), I think you made a good purchase. I understand there were only 120 12c's imported, but that may just be an internet rumor.

 

BTW, welcome to the exclusive 12c SBS club:

 

Incidentally, I'm always looks for more 12c's. Every one I've seen has sold for the asking price (some high, some low), and always before I could get to it. I personally haven't come across any for sale since last fall.

Edited May 29, 2008 by az_shootist

[WHITE 3 GOLF 2]

 

I didn't know there was a club but here is my safe queen,

uncoverted still in pristine factory condition. Took her out

for some exercise with some 00 buck and Remington bird

shot. She'll eat anything you put into her. Great Shotgun,

the wife loves to shoot the hell out of it.

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

SWEET!!!! AZ SHOOTIST I want to install the same rail on on my 12C with a muzzle brake or something to look like yours. This 12C has been shot quite a bit and could use a refresh. I was also thinking about a nice duracoat job to really clean it up! Hopefully it won't screw up the value!!!

 

The barrel was cut by a class 2 guy in maryland and his info was stamped on the side of the receiver near the import stamp. I will get some pictures of the gun on Saturday when I go by my class 3 guys place. I was also thinking about picking up a replacement barrel and holding on to it to possibly convert it back later down the road. Does any one know if they are available? Or is it best just not to screw with it too much and leave it as is?

 

This site is awsome!!! I can't wait for my paper work to come in!!!

 

I forgot to mention that the 12C came with 4 original 8 round mags and 2 10 rounders and 1 5 rounder!!!!

Edited May 29, 2008 by MilitaryWeapons

[az_shootist 0]

Thanks. With the mags, you REALLY got a sweet deal. If you come across replacement barrels, let me know; I don't know of any. While I'd like one for a rainy day, I doubt I'll ever have real use for one. I've got an extra FH and choke set, but you'll need factory threads in order to use them. PM me if you're interested.

Edited May 29, 2008 by az_shootist

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

AZ what is a FH?????? No threads on this short barrell..........

 

Does anyone know what a guy has to do to get a MD arms drum?????? I can't figure out if they are available, on back order, is there a line I need to stand in????

Edited May 30, 2008 by MilitaryWeapons

[USP40 1]

FH=Flash hider

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

Thanks USP40, I rode the short bus to school!!!!

Edited May 30, 2008 by MilitaryWeapons

[USP40 1]

Thanks USP40, I rode the short bus to school!!!!

No problem , I ran after the short bus.

[Bvamp 604]

15-2000 mark easy then, etc.

 

I dont know who you are, you might have been a LEO armorer that still has one, for all I know, and got it as a 14"er.

 

I would even go so far as to evaluate 12c's at around 2500 so long as they are in good or better NRA condition, regardless of barrel changes and all of that, although the barrel length DOES affect collectibility a little, but not very much on this particular firearm.

 

you got a steal MilWeap dude....

 

(remind me to "get up" with the AZ guys next time I am out there, btw)

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

HELP!!!! Trying to post pics of the 12C and I can't figure it out

[kresk 10,063]

HELP!!!! Trying to post pics of the 12C and I can't figure it out

You can upload up tp 2mb of pix. Once in the post mode hit browse and in your computer go to the pix you want to post and upload them. Once that is done then go to the 'manage current attachments' and hit the green symbol to attach it to your post, then hit 'add reply.'

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

Tritium thanks!!!!! Here are the pics......

Edited May 31, 2008 by MilitaryWeapons

[MilitaryWeapons 0]

Does anyone know where I can get a clamp on (not threaded) 12ga flash hider with the ak style front sight? I saw a pic of one and I think it would really set this gun off

[Franky 2]

Looks like a nice collectors piece there. Really sweet man. The other guys will give you a heads-up on that sight eventually. FMJ.

[RDSWriter 5]

Rather than getting a clamp-on style muzzle attachment, I recommend renting a threading tool from Danzig Arms... I've rented the S12 tool a couple times and had excellent results. It appears that there is still enough lenght on your barrel to do it, and you'd be able use all threaded Russian and Tromix style attachments.