Shooterman 0 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Been searching and reading threads til my eyes are spinning... So, in trying to collect the right info on a planned conversion for my .223, it seems a foregone conclusion that if you add a PG, you replace the factory stock as well, correct? In looking at stocks, I keep seeing this "Warsaw length" listed; how does this style compare to the factory stock on the Saiga? I have no problem replacing the stock, but I'd like to know what the net effect will be. Then, you have this 'original style' stock from Tapco: Linky. Does 'original' mean it's the same as what comes on the .223? Can someone help a newb out? TIA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 "Warsaw length" specifies the standard length military Kalashnikov buttstock. It is about (ballpark) between 2 and 3 inches shorter than the factory Monte Carlo. Keep in mind, that your pistol grip will be moved forward after the conversion by about 2 inches, also. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shooterman 0 Posted June 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 "Warsaw length" specifies the standard length military Kalashnikov buttstock. It is about (ballpark) between 2 and 3 inches shorter than the factory Monte Carlo. Keep in mind, that your pistol grip will be moved forward after the conversion by about 2 inches, also. Right, I figured the PG would affect the way the rifle would be shouldered. So, does this mean the you want a shorter stock once the grip is on, or not? Sorry to be so dense about this, but I've not owned a gun like this before. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Right, I figured the PG would affect the way the rifle would be shouldered. So, does this mean the you want a shorter stock once the grip is on, or not? Sorry to be so dense about this, but I've not owned a gun like this before. Well, "how big a boy are ya?". Warsaw length stocks aren't for folks who are unaccustomed to them. NATO length stocks are about an inch longer and more comfortable for us large Americans. If you're over 6', you'd probably want a NATO length stock at least. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 From what i've read, the NATO length stock is generally a better fit for larger people. But, you might want to consider your intended use and location. I am currently starting on a saiga 12 conversion, my intended use for the weapon is as a whitetail deer slug gun. Since I live in Iowa and I usually hunt in layered clothing, I decided that the Warsaw length of pull was a better fit for my 12. The shorter stock should give me a decent length of pull with the added clothing bulk. I am by no means an expert, this is just my humble opinion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LKB3rd 0 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 I originally ordered a stock with a recoil pad/extension on it, but they made a mistake and sent me the regular warsaw length one. I am 5'11" average length arms and some extra ..ahem .. padding on my torso lol, and it turns out it works great. I may add a 1 inch extension at some point, but it seems like the shape and design of an ak is suited to a more compact buttstock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shooterman 0 Posted June 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 (edited) Well, I'm 6'1", and a semi-flabby 220 lbs The gun is primarily a SHTF weapon, that will be used for general plinking otherwise. From the above replies, it would seem that the NATO length would suit me better, especially since a PG will eventually go on it (?). The Tapco stock I had my eye on (linked in the OP) is apparently quite short, so I'm thinking its not a good choice for my size. However, Tapco makes a 1" extension that looks like it would work with that stock; I'll give 'em a call tomorrow. It's looking like, if I want to go with the traditional style stock, my options are limited. Edited June 1, 2008 by Shooterman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zakmatthews 14 Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 I'm 5'6" and I find the warsaw stock too short for me. I tend to shoot from across the chest rather than perpendicular to it, so it can depend on your shooting stance. The footprint of the buttplate doesn't give you much surface area to distribute recoil on either stock though. Also, I know the tapco 1" extension does not fit the k-var stocks. I don't know about the tapco stocks though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chris in va 0 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 DesertDog was kind enough to show the difference between Warsaw and Nato length stocks. Scroll down and click on his pictures. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=26373 I ordered the NATO length, I'll report back how it feels. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shooterman 0 Posted June 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) DesertDog was kind enough to show the difference between Warsaw and Nato length stocks. Scroll down and click on his pictures. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=26373 I ordered the NATO length, I'll report back how it feels. Chris- Thanks for this. It explains and shows the difference perfectly (and should be a sticky for us newbs). I called Tapco and the guy I spoke with said that the stock I linked to in my OP is 'the same as the Saiga factory stock." When I asked how it would work with their SAW PG on the Saiga, he seemed confused and muttered something about it not being designed for that gun. Essentially, his opinion was I'd have to mount it to see if it was for me. It's not an expensive part, but I don't want to order something I won't end up using. Oh, and the extension Tapco sells will not work with their Original Style Buttstock; odd, as they are pictured next to each other in their site. I was told they plan to offer an extension for the aforementioned stock in about a month. EDIT: Turns out that K-Var has the Dark Earth NATO stock back in stock ($54). Coupled with Tapco's SAW PG, I should be able to get a good setup. Thanks again! Edited June 2, 2008 by Shooterman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zone1935 5 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 " I called Tapco and the guy I spoke with said that the stock I linked to in my OP is 'the same as the Saiga factory stock." When I asked how it would work with their SAW PG on the Saiga, he seemed confused and muttered something about it not being designed for that gun." The confusion that the TAPCO guy might have had was that until I found this forum, I had never even heard or considered doing a "conversion." If he was unaware that you were converting the saiga to a PG config, than the choice of buttstock and PG would not make sense. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LKB3rd 0 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 (edited) Well, I'm 6'1", and a semi-flabby 220 lbs The gun is primarily a SHTF weapon, that will be used for general plinking otherwise. From the above replies, it would seem that the NATO length would suit me better, especially since a PG will eventually go on it (?). The Tapco stock I had my eye on (linked in the OP) is apparently quite short, so I'm thinking its not a good choice for my size. However, Tapco makes a 1" extension that looks like it would work with that stock; I'll give 'em a call tomorrow. It's looking like, if I want to go with the traditional style stock, my options are limited. I have seen "recoil pads" that are also 1 inch extensions, made to fit standard ak butt stocks. Some even have a hole and fit over a standard butt plate, using the same screws, so you can use the toolkit trapdoor compartment if you have one. " I called Tapco and the guy I spoke with said that the stock I linked to in my OP is 'the same as the Saiga factory stock." When I asked how it would work with their SAW PG on the Saiga, he seemed confused and muttered something about it not being designed for that gun." A butt stock the same length as the original one, rearward trigger placement will have around an inch or so longer butt to trigger measurement when you move the fire control group to the normal/forward position. Edited June 2, 2008 by LKB3rd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shooterman 0 Posted June 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 A butt stock the same length as the original one, rearward trigger placement will have around an inch or so longer butt to trigger measurement when you move the fire control group to the normal/forward position. Hmm, good point. Hadn't considered that; perhaps this is the reason for the shorter, Warsaw stock. My lizard's brain is trying hard to imagine what physical effect moving the trigger up to accommodate the PG would have on how the gun holds. This is all uncharted waters for me. I think I'll wait til I actually have the rifle in hand to see how it feels with the factory stock and trigger rearward. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LKB3rd 0 Posted June 2, 2008 Report Share Posted June 2, 2008 A butt stock the same length as the original one, rearward trigger placement will have around an inch or so longer butt to trigger measurement when you move the fire control group to the normal/forward position. Hmm, good point. Hadn't considered that; perhaps this is the reason for the shorter, Warsaw stock. My lizard's brain is trying hard to imagine what physical effect moving the trigger up to accommodate the PG would have on how the gun holds. This is all uncharted waters for me. I think I'll wait til I actually have the rifle in hand to see how it feels with the factory stock and trigger rearward. I went through the same sort of thoughts when I was choosing a butt stock. I even tried to hold it pre-conversion under the trigger guard in the converted position approximately. It ended up exceeding my expectations of how comfortably it would point for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shooterman 0 Posted June 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Alrighty, then. Got an email back from K-Var saying they have a buttstock/PG combo available in Desert Sand, and by golly they now do: Linky I believe this will be the set I will use for my conversion. Gettin' there.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chris in va 0 Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Adding my two cents to the topic... I have fairly long arms and find the NATO length to be perfect...if you shoot 'sideways' like most of us do. Cheek weld is right where the rise starts on the stock. Now my lady friend has trouble with it. If she was to shoot it on a regular basis, I'd definitely get the collapsible version. Even the 'Warsaw' length would be too long for her, although she tends to shoot straight ahead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shooterman 0 Posted June 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Adding my two cents to the topic... I have fairly long arms and find the NATO length to be perfect...if you shoot 'sideways' like most of us do. Cheek weld is right where the rise starts on the stock. Now my lady friend has trouble with it. If she was to shoot it on a regular basis, I'd definitely get the collapsible version. Even the 'Warsaw' length would be too long for her, although she tends to shoot straight ahead. My arms are fairly long too, so I am sure the NATO length will be fine. I am now stuck on whether or not to go for just the PG and stock or adding the handguards too. Probably best to do it in stages. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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