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saiga 20 Jams!


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#1 AK-fanaddict

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 09:48 PM

I took my saiga 20 out and put a new red dot sight on it, I sighted it in using slugs at 50 yards went through 10 rounds of slugs to archive zero. After that I went through one mag of 3 Inch shells, and one mag of 2 3/4 shells, all went flawless like always.

Then I went over clay shooting using the same shells and I got 2-3 Jams a mag! I was using 2 3/4 shells in the right 70mm mag.
I don't understand what could be the problem? I知 using Winchester ammo like I have always used. So I switched the choke setting from a 2 to a 1 ( I致e always had it one 2 with no problems) after that I went through one mag with no jams and the next had one jam.

I ran out of ammo after that so I can't tell if it's the choke setting that was the problem, I was embarrassed to be shooting a saiga that kept jamming, never had this problem besides accidentally loading 2 3/4 in 3 inch mags. How can I fix this?

Edited by AK-fanaddict, 15 June 2008 - 11:07 PM.


#2 Fob Magi

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 02:13 AM

I'd be more embarrassed using buckshot on clays if it were me... most ranges I've been to will boot you for that.

Jamming is not a helpful description.
Describe your failures, FTE, stovepipe, FTF?
Any odd markings on the failed cartridges?

If you jam while shooting clays, but not with bench rest, it is might be your shooting technique, with handguns this is called limp-wristing. Its not very common with rifles/shotguns but if your grip / shoulder contact is poor or you are trying to shoot from the hip and your gun is cycling poorly to begin with it can happen with shotguns.

Some general advice:
If you don't have at least 500 rounds through it, shoot more. All guns, saigas in particular, tend to improve with 'experience'.
If you have more than 500 rounds through it, make sure you have taken the gas system completely apart and cleaned it well including poking the gas ports with a pick to ensure they are clear. I clean my gas system fully every trip to the range, not 100% necessary, but I like to take care of my guns.
If your still having problems switch ammo.. I use 2-3/4" remington heavy dove #7.5 w/o problems, $60/250 at academy.

Another general fix is to polish your hammer face and the hammer engagement points on your bolt to a mirror finish, don't take material off just polish with a cloth wheel and some buffing rouge. This will remove some friction from the system so your bolt moves faster and puts more force on the rounds to move them around properly.

#3 AK-fanaddict

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 12:11 PM

First of all I would never shot clay with slugs, like I said the only slugs used were at the bench, shooting paper at 50 yards.

I don't think my shooting technique is the problem I don't have poor technique, and I知 using the same technique as always with no jams with my saiga.
I've had about 250 rounds through this saiga, and I haven't completely cleaned the gas tube yet (I always push a cloth through it with out taking it apart). The type of jams was shells getting caught while injecting in-between the bolt.

Some of the clay was being thrown very high (the thrower was inexperienced) where the muzzle was sometimes pointed about 45 degrees. I don't think that was the problem because jams accrued during straight shooting as well.

I値l take your advice on cleaning the gas tube. I usually completely clean gas tubes every 300 rounds or so. What about the choke setting should it be set differently based on the type of shooting?

Edited by AK-fanaddict, 15 June 2008 - 11:08 PM.


#4 Fob Magi

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 02:31 PM

Setting #1 is made for 3" shells but may work on 2-3/4" slugs, it is for 'heavy loads' that cause high back pressures.... ie more powder (3" shells) or a better seal (slugs). It is used so you don't damage parts by slamming the piston / bolt carrier back too hard.

Use setting #2 is the 'light load' setting, it lets more gas into the tube for when setting #1 will not cycle well. Use it only on 2-3/4" shells in general, but you may need to use it on 3" bird shot .

Taking the gas tube apart is not hard, just turn the screw that you use to select #1 / #2 all the way out, pull out the spacer piston and clean it (the spacer), the piston and the tube with a brass brush.

The failure I think you are describing is called a stovepipe (where the empty shell pokes out the side of the receiver), polishing the hammer and bottom of the bolt will help fix this. Also different ammo may fix this (some expand more than others resulting in more bolt energy lost extracting the shell).

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I wasn't accusing you of using slugs on clays, I was accusing you of using buckshot. There are 3 common types of sporting ammo for a shotgun:

Slugs - Single projectile for large game (deer, people)
Buckshot - Large pellets (5-25 per shell), used for medium-large game (jack rabbits - people)
Birdshot - Small pellets (25-600 per shell), used for small-medium game) (dove, rabbits) and sporting clays.

The smaller the projectile the faster it decelerates (and lower terminal velocity on return trip), so the safer it is to use near populated areas and the safer it is to shoot up into the air (such as at clays). Most ranges I have been to get pissy if you use bigger than #2 birdshot (~90 per cartridge) on the clay range.

#5 AK-fanaddict

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 03:23 PM

Would leaving my setting on # 1 be okay?
I've always used the following ammo-

Winchester 3/4 ounce hollow point slugs
Winchester super speed
AAA Target loads
Win drylok 3 inch shells

I've always used this ammo before with no problem. I've still never had a slug jam.
The problem was with both AAA and Win super speed.

And yes the problem is stovepipe; I will polish the hammer which I assume by polish you mean clean very well?

BTW- were I clay shoot there is about 50 Acers of nothing, they let use anything as long as it痴 not slugs in the air.

Edited by AK-fanaddict, 15 June 2008 - 11:11 PM.


#6 Fob Magi

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 09:47 PM

by 7 1/2 pellets and 9 pellets I assume you mean #7-1/2 birdshot and #9 birdshot. 2-3/4" birdshot WILL NOT cycle in most saigas under setting #1, you must use setting #2. Unless you are shooting 3" shells stick to setting #2.

and by polish, I mean polish not clean. Take some 400 grit sandpaper and a dremel w/ cloth wheel & rouge (DONT USE STONES) and make that shit look like a mirror.

#7 -Indy-

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 07:46 PM

It is really common for Saiga 20's to jam and stovepipe CONSTANTLY for a while before its broken in...

I NEVER polished ANYTHING on mine... but I DID participate in a summer trap league, and shot over 150 rounds a week through it... for about 12 weeks... needless to say, it shoots EVERYTHING n the 1 setting now, no FTE no stovepipes... just gotta KEEP shooting, and break the NEW gun in... Thats all there is to it.. patience... shoot... :up: all good! :lol:


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#8 csspecs

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 03:47 PM

I swapped the recoil spring out in my brothers, used a 10 or 11 pound 1911 spring. Never had a problem after that.

http://stores.csspecs.com/
For metal Saiga-12, Saiga .308 and Vepr .308 magazines.

 

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#9 Gary

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 04:23 PM

It is really common for Saiga 20's to jam and stovepipe CONSTANTLY for a while before its broken in...

I NEVER polished ANYTHING on mine... but I DID participate in a summer trap league, and shot over 150 rounds a week through it... for about 12 weeks... needless to say, it shoots EVERYTHING n the 1 setting now, no FTE no stovepipes... just gotta KEEP shooting, and break the NEW gun in... Thats all there is to it.. patience... shoot... :up: all good! :lol:


:smoke:

I'm an S-20 owner as well and completely agree with what IndyArms stated above. You will find that your S-20 functions better and better, the more rounds you shoot through her. Such has been my experience anyway.... I totally empathize with your current frustration.

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#10 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 05:19 PM

Actually, Mr Cole and I were discussing this exact thing today, and he is on a mission from the importer to discover exactly WHAT it is that causes this in new 20 gauge guns. Mr Cole did have a good point, however, in that russian ammo is loaded hot, and is hunting ammo, not cheap walmart stuff. Which may be the issue completely.

did you guys experience any shortstroking when using, say, slugs or buckshot?
Rockin the Saiga world since 2003

#11 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

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Posted 28 June 2008 - 10:46 PM

Actually, Mr Cole and I were discussing this exact thing today, and he is on a mission from the importer to discover exactly WHAT it is that causes this in new 20 gauge guns. Mr Cole did have a good point, however, in that russian ammo is loaded hot, and is hunting ammo, not cheap walmart stuff. Which may be the issue completely.

did you guys experience any shortstroking when using, say, slugs or buckshot?


I've had slugs, birdshot, and buckshot all jam in my S20 and have done just about all the tricks to get it improved. They worked to some degree, but not to the point I'd trust my life with an S20.

My main gripe with the S20 is virtually no availability of 2 and 3/4 inch mags, and known crappy reliability when using the shorter shells in the 3 in mags. Also, the mags tend to wear out quickly at the top where they push the rim of the shell forward and up into the feed lips. Once that part of the mag is worn it's worthless. I've gotten some workable reloads for my gun, but the fact that it only works OK with handloaded buckshot and most slugs is very disappointing given how the S12 is a decent performer. The 20 gauge is a better all around shell then the 12 gauge IMO, and it would be great to see some improvements or factory suggestions to improve the reliablity, also have them import a bunch of 2 and 3/4 inch mags if that's a possibility.

#12 -Indy-

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 08:14 AM

I call DIBS, if ya get so tired of it, you want to sell!!! :up: :lol:


:smoke:
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
~ Thomas Jefferson


It is impossible to make people understand their ignorance; for it requires knowledge to perceive it and therefore he that can perceive it, hath it not.
Jeremy Taylor
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"The AG has determined that you're a potential terrorist, because only potential terrorists are interested in buying guns."

#13 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 29 June 2008 - 01:10 PM

Actually, Mr Cole and I were discussing this exact thing today, and he is on a mission from the importer to discover exactly WHAT it is that causes this in new 20 gauge guns. Mr Cole did have a good point, however, in that russian ammo is loaded hot, and is hunting ammo, not cheap walmart stuff. Which may be the issue completely.

did you guys experience any shortstroking when using, say, slugs or buckshot?


I've had slugs, birdshot, and buckshot all jam in my S20 and have done just about all the tricks to get it improved. They worked to some degree, but not to the point I'd trust my life with an S20.

My main gripe with the S20 is virtually no availability of 2 and 3/4 inch mags, and known crappy reliability when using the shorter shells in the 3 in mags. Also, the mags tend to wear out quickly at the top where they push the rim of the shell forward and up into the feed lips. Once that part of the mag is worn it's worthless. I've gotten some workable reloads for my gun, but the fact that it only works OK with handloaded buckshot and most slugs is very disappointing given how the S12 is a decent performer. The 20 gauge is a better all around shell then the 12 gauge IMO, and it would be great to see some improvements or factory suggestions to improve the reliablity, also have them import a bunch of 2 and 3/4 inch mags if that's a possibility.


I can get you them, but it would be simpler right now for me if you just ordered 2 3/4 mags from saigastock.com I probably cannot beat thier price on them.

My partner is in the middle of tearing a 20 gauge apart for RAAC (not a customer gun) to find out just wtf is up with the short stroking that is common with the 20 gauge. Right now, it appears the gas ports are the same as the 12 gauge, and the recoil assembly is the same as the 12 gauge as well. Ill have to get a status report on what is going on as far as progress tword a solution in the next days for you all, and either post it myself, or have him post it.
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#14 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:37 PM

It's pretty simple actually. The damn recoil spring is too strong. That and the extractor spring.
Then there's the problem with the difference in feed angle in the two different mags.
The ports could also stand to be larger but I kicked my reliability problems in the ass without messing with them.
Then again....mine has a 22" fixed full choked bbl.


Take the rear recoil spring out and put a 1911 spring in there. Then polish all the mating surfaces and put 100 rds of magnums through it.
FIXED! :smoke:

Oh and AK wood furniture helps too....

$1.25 you have a PM...
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#15 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:49 PM

Yikes, $42.50 plus shipping for a 5 round 2 and 3/4 mag. Despite having bought a mess of FBMG mags, I need to draw the line when the choice is three mags or a functional surplus rifle.

I'll just hang out and see if any 10 rounders become available. At any rate, the value of the S20 is sure to go up, and since I only paid $200 for mine it's worth just hanging onto it to see what happens.

#16 Jackashe

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Posted 27 February 2009 - 11:59 PM

It's pretty simple actually. The damn recoil spring is too strong. That and the extractor spring.
Then there's the problem with the difference in feed angle in the two different mags.
The ports could also stand to be larger but I kicked my reliability problems in the ass without messing with them.
Then again....mine has a 22" fixed full choked bbl.


Take the rear recoil spring out and put a 1911 spring in there. Then polish all the mating surfaces and put 100 rds of magnums through it.
FIXED! :smoke:

Oh and AK wood furniture helps too....

$1.25 you have a PM...

I just purchased a S12 and I am having the same issues of jamming on every round. Will this work on the s12 as well?

#17 russianblood

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Posted 28 February 2009 - 08:07 PM

You may have gotten an S-12 that didn't get the propper gas ports drilled in it. Check the Saiga 12 forum for details.
http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=33836
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#18 squeak003

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Posted 03 March 2009 - 01:46 PM

my s-20 has only had 60 slugs through it and 15 #7 bird shot. i've only had 2 jams ever and it was fail to feed. it was 2 3/4" slugs from the 3" mag and the slugs caught shell guide going into the barrel
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#19 russianblood

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 07:22 PM

I finally got my S-20 to cycle reliably with 'game loads'. I replaced one of the recoil springs with a 10# 1911 spring and polished up the rails in the receiver.
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