7.62x39 for home defence.

[vujade 0]

I know this is probably not the best choice for self defence in a subdivision but these are the constraints...

 

My mom is home by herself often. She likes shooting her 22 handgun but we understand that is wholly inadequate. There is also a 22 rifle at home and a 9mm 92fs which is my dads. She does't like shooting that and has problems using the slide. There is also a saiga in 7.62x39 in the house which my dad just acquired.

 

She can however work the action of the saiga and she likes it.

 

I see about 2-3 inner walls around the house if she shot it at the bad guy from her room. Then brick exterior. Then maybe either 20 to 100 yards to the other houses - also brick. Windows of course wouldn't slow those bullets down any.

 

Will using Wolf HP or SP be safe enough as to not put her neighbors at risk?

 

I've already tried to convinve her to get a 38 revolver or a pump shotgun and she doesn't like either. We've tried to teach her how to use the 9mm and she just can't work it.

 

Any advince? Thoughts? Thanks in advance.

[FenderFreek 0]

I've personally seen Wolf HP's *obliterate* bricks and cinderblocks and keep going through trees behind them, so I would have some serious doubts about the safety of that. Handguns and shotguns are wholly preferred in defense for a reason - unless you use an extremely frangible bullet, rifle rounds are simply moving too fast, with too much energy to effectively use in a situation where missed shots or over-penetration is an issue.

 

If you were out in the "sticks" and there was no one around, then I'd say you're probably fine, but if you've got others that close to you, I recommend to stay away from rifles. If she can operate and handle a 7.62x39 rifle, then there's no good reason that she couldn't get the hang of your shotgun or handgun with a little practice. If you've got the best tool for the job already, there's no reason to endanger your neighbors' lives or property.

 

- My .02

[Arcturus74 0]

I agree. I keep my Saiga in the home, but if there was ever a problem, I would be running for the shotgun. I have little kids in my nighborhood....couldn't stand to think of a stray round hitting one of them.....

[supermachine 0]

here would be my idea...

why not have the 9mm chambered and ready.. simply taking it off safety for shooting purposes. your situation may be different, but i have no children, and rarely ever have children visiting me.... my .40 sits in my nightstand with a full clip and 1 in the hole with the safety on of course, that way in the middle of the night it's a simple flip of the safety and squeeze away.

or maybe try taking her to the fun store to pick out a higher caliber handgun she may like better

 

after shooting my saiga today for the 1st time, i would never think to use it for personal defense in the home situation, it has way too much power and i live in town.. gonna try to get a pistol grip riot style 12gauge

[KC913 324]

..I've already tried to convinve her to get a 38 revolver or a pump shotgun and she doesn't like either

 

 

Get her a Saiga 12 if you can find one after distributors receive the new shipments

[chris in va 0]

I keep mine next to the bed every night. The AK has been used for HD sucessfully in the past.

 

Unless she's used to racking the forearm on a shotgun every shot under duress, the only thing she'll probably know to to is pull the trigger, repeatedly.

[uzitiger 193]

I shot my Saiga at cinder blocks and they took a few rounds to turn them into rubble. The first few shots will penetrate the first layer then the subsequent shots finished the blocks and hit the backstop. I would use a pistol or shotgun before I would use the 7/62x39 or .223 rounds. One advantage of the Saiga 7.62x39 is its deterrent factor. Any criminal facing the business end of the Saiga will either surrender, run away or end up full of holes.

[CheepJerokee 0]

I shot my Saiga at cinder blocks and they took a few rounds to turn them into rubble. The first few shots will penetrate the first layer then the subsequent shots finished the blocks and hit the backstop. I would use a pistol or shotgun before I would use the 7/62x39 or .223 rounds. One advantage of the Saiga 7.62x39 is its deterrent factor. Any criminal facing the business end of the Saiga will either surrender, run away or end up full of holes.

Yes.........The Ak has a certain "poo poo" factor when displayed!

But, I wouldnt want to be your neighbor if she emptied a 10 round mag. I have personally seen a .223 go through 2 walls (stud included), 2 doors and kill the p trap below the bathroom sink..........long story, short ending.

Buy her a smith 442 revolver( the one with the pink grip!), load it with saftey slugs for teh first 2 and hydro shocks for teh last 3. That way when, not if , she misses with teh fisrt one , the only mess will be teh one the bad guy leaves on teh floor!

Edited July 20, 2008 by CheepJerokee

[Etek 32]

Get her a Saiga shotgun.

[Agias 0]

Get her a Saiga 12. Same action, no overpenetration.

[Arcturus74 0]

The sound of a shotgun being racked is a fairly "poo poo" inducing noise as well....I think most criminals would simply flee upon hearing that sound.

[MD_Willington 11]

Ulynovsk 8m3 round

 

Wolf military classic HP's

 

Been called "The Russian equivalent to Hornady TAP".

 

I discussed this with freerangeyoda (RIP) and to make a long story short when I asked him how good would this ammo be for defensive purposes he replied with one word....."Fragtastic!" So, this is what I keep in my loaded AK mags for emergencies.

 

or

 

Pull the 8M3 and replace it with 123g Hornady V-MAX soft point bullet... they make a helluva mess.

[devildogdakota 804]

As written by Chuck Hawks...:

20 Gauge

 

The 20 is an excellent self-defense caliber, particularly for those who dislike the recoil of the 12 gauge. I recommend the 20 gauge over the more popular 12 for home defense. Choose the 20 gauge 3" shell Federal "Classic" #2 buckshot (F207-2-5PK) with 18 pellets, or the Winchester "Double XX" Magnum #3 with 24 pellets (X203C3B). If your gun cannot accept 3" shells choose the Remington #3 with 20 pellets (SP20BK5PK-3). All of these loads provide definitive short-range stopping power.

 

I specifically recommend the 20 gauge for women and recoil-sensitive men who dislike the blast and recoil of the 12 gauge. "Delivering roughly the ballistic force of two .44 Magnum rounds at once," comments the knowledgeable Ayoob, the 20 "delivers 75% of the lead for only 50-60% of the recoil". Many police departments have found their officers shoot much more accurately in realistic training exercises with the lighter-kicking but still potent 20 gauge.

 

If you are new to shotgunning and considering getting one for self-defense I strongly urge you to buy the reliable and reasonably-priced "Mossberg 500 Special Purpose" 18.5" barrel 20 gauge pump shotgun (catalog #50451). This tried-and-true workhorse is the standard shotgun of the U.S. Armed Forces and costs a little over $200. You'll be much happier with the lighter-kicking 20 gauge than the 12 gauge version used by the military, and - most importantly - you'll shoot the 20 more accurately and rapidly.

 

For an in-depth look at the 20-versus-12 gauge issue I recommend all shotgun owners (and potential shotgun owners) read 'Stressfire II: Advanced Combat Shotgun' by Massad Ayoob. Perhaps I am beginning to sound like a broken record on the theme of Ayoob's books, but once you've read them you'll understand why I recommend them so highly (and repeatedly). Note: Ayoob dislikes the 20 gauge Remington 870 pump shotgun and recommends you choose the Mossberg 500 in 20 gauge for general self-defense and home-defense use. So do I.

 

For ultra-close range home defense birdshot will do the trick. Choose any #4, BB or larger high brass lead hunting load, and have the balance of the magazine filled with #3 buck in case the birdshot doesn't put them down fast enough.

 

Avoid slug use in 20 gauge; you are better off defending yourself with buckshot. If you must use slugs, pick the Dynamit/Nobel or Federal "Classic" (F203-RS) rifled slugs. Using slugs requires careful aiming and rifle sights: few 20 gauge shotguns have the latter.

 

16

[CheepJerokee 0]

The other suggestion I might ad....is.......

If your are so unfortunante as to have to use deadly force in your home to "stop" (The key word is stop, never say KILL.) someone. You WILL have to answer to a Grand Jury and hope for no billing. The weapon will be confiscated at the time of the incident and presented as evidence. In the eyes of the Grand Jury (50% Liberal in the U.S.), would you rather present a small revolver........or a AK?..............Something that most Americans associate with terrorist?

Something to think about.

[CheepJerokee 0]

Many things can "show up" in front of the GJ, Previous post on boards such as this...........Things as simple as a "malicious" screen name can be used against you.

[b2673ad 0]

Hello

 

How often do your parents have Zombie's inside the house?

 

My feeling is that if some turd comes in & I have to pick up the Saiga or AR15 to handle the situation. We can sort out the issues once they bagged up and carried off.

 

If your Mom wants to blast Zombies with the Saiga then let her. I would take her to the range for a full day of "Training" like safety, loading, misfire procedures etc.

 

Just my thoughts

[vujade 0]

Thanks so much for the advice - everyone. I've relayed each one of your thoughts to her. I'm glad for this forum and all your insight. She was going to have a few magazines with HP in them and you're right - there are so many negatives (neighborhood kids/innocents, liberal courts, confiscation, negative publicity, etc.) that the saiga will be just for the zombies and last resorts.

 

I'll tell her to keep practicing and hopefully the 9 won't be so bad. The 22 will be there as her "favorite" until then. Or maybe she'll warm up to buy a 32 or a shotgun. If not, she can always keep the Saiga "close by" just in case - like if she finds out it's a gang of bad guys. In that case, defending herself with the saiga and "sorting it out" later is better than the alternative.

[CheepJerokee 0]

Let her hold a Ruger LCP (.380)> Thats my summertime CCW and I love it. Granted, Knock Down power is limited. But it will feel nice in her hand and has very little kick. My 8 year old likes to shoot it.

[soberups 1]

The problem with a Saiga---or almost any rifle for that matter---is that if you fire it indoors at night you will be blinded by the flash and deafened by the muzzle blast. As much as I like my saiga, it is way down near the bottom of the list of my guns that I would be grabbing for self defense at home in the middle of the night.

[cscharlie 107]

Indoors they all are going to be loud. They all will penetrate several walls. Here's some reading might be interesting.

 

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Edited July 22, 2008 by cscharlie

[Modiano 5]

can you get frangible loads?

 

the loaded beretta could work. a handgun is best if she has to open a door or use the phone to call 911. she's not likely to need to reload that anyway. if there would be grandkids around you could get a finger combination bedside safe for less than $100 or use masterlock's combination trigger lock. i keep my trigger lock one number off and can unlock it 100% in the dark.

 

as for shotguns, 20g 2.75" buckshot, 12g 2.75" birdshot, and 12g 2.75" reduced recoil buckshot have the same relative recoil to me. have her try the reduced recoil buck and BBshot out of a 12g pump w/ recoil pad. if that's too much for her, then 20g buck will probably be too much.

 

.410 saigas are cheap and available. i've heard they now have the 10rounders avail for it.

 

with any hd saiga shotgun, you'll need to solve the problem with 1st round in the magazine being deformed under a closed bolt.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

...The 22 will be there as her "favorite" until then. Or maybe she'll warm up to buy a 32 or a shotgun...

 

In all likelihood whatever she picks up to use will be the first, last and only weapon that she will use during any incident. Things happen very fast in a home invasion scenario and time will probably not be available to make another choice. There is something to be said for carefully selecting your platform and practicing (a lot) so that the responses are ingrained and automatic. There will not be time to think about different types of safety, charging and various other different manipulations required for a second choice. I think of small automatics chambered in .22 LR, .25 ACP and .32 ACP as "shoot and scoot" guns. They will not "STOP" the threat, they only give you time to run. They're not gunfight guns. A .38 Special or 9mm is generally recognized as the minimum needed. If she cannot operate a semi-automatic, get her a revolver. IMO you do a disservice to one you love by providing them "false security" with an under powered pistol/revolver. Select an apropriate weapon and train her if there is a danger in her neighborhood. As an aside IMO there is a "danger" in every neighborhood.

1911

Edited July 22, 2008 by 1911

[cscharlie 107]

Sounds like you gave her good recomendations already with the revolver and pump shotgun.

 

When using the 762x39mm Saiga it should be ammo that works reliably above all else. Also have good terminal ballistics. Sometimes AK don't like certain hp, or sp bullets. If going for excellent terminal ballistics, I would try Winchester 123Gr softpoints. They will prob cost about $1.00 per round. Second choice would be Barnaul, Wolf Military Classic hp,(not to be confused with wolf in the black box). You can buy a case of 1000 for around $190.00. Next choice would be FMJ of the above brands, or Golden Tiger. Golden Tiger will prob cost around $10.00 less then WMC for a case of 1000.

 

Personaly I would stay away from anything exotic like the magic frangible rounds, balistic tip rounds or someone elses reloads.

 

Would still be a good idea to have a handgun next too the bed, in addition to the long arm close by. There are different kinds of handgun safes that could be mounted close to or on the bed that can be opened very quickly with one hand, so as to be reached without having to go across the room when seconds count. Then it could be used to aid in getting to the long gun(saiga).

 

Another thing I would strongly consider is an effective flash hider, like either the Phantom, or the Smith Vortex. The Phantom Hider is made by Yankee Hill Machine and is kind of pointy on the end. It can be bought for around $25.00. The Smith Vortex Hider can be found at Brownells for, something like$75.00. Then Vortex hides flash a little better but of course is expensive.

[vujade 0]

Yes cscharlie...i've been selling the idea of a pump shotgun or a revolver (i have a little 38 snub that i've tried to get her to like - even showed her you get it in pink grips) but for some reason - she just doesn't like them - the revolver "kicks too hard" and isn't "easy" to use (i'm trying to understand that - i think she means she is less accurate on it than her 22 - she's got the really nice Beretta Neo). Anything "shotgun" like is "too scary".

 

But whenever i'm over and cleaning my saiga(s) - she just admires them. She's sold on how reliable and simple they are to use. And she thinks they are cool. (I've got her blood). So, they now have one of their own.

 

I have some HP and SP that I was going to give her. I was really just curious if that was wise. The consensus here appears to be that they will cause a grave risk to her neighbors. I'm glad for all your advise. Thus, I'll continue to try to get her more comfortable with the 9 or even a revolver and hopefully one day a pump shotgun in 20 or 410 even.

 

Hopefully this thread will also help someone who may be counting on using a 7.62 or 308 round inside a house or apartment.

[vujade 0]

boxoftruth - i didn't realize how powerful bullets are. Especially rifle rounds. You dont' notice that power when it hits paper and the earth berm.

[varmintgetter 1]

I think the intimidation factor of the Saiga alone will deter any zombies...and racking that bolt...think those people won't hear that?

 

I dunno about you, but I was trained to use a pistol in order for me to get to my rifle or shotgun.

[cscharlie 107]

I wonder if a revolver chambered in 9mm, or 45acp would fit the bill. I've seen them before, but don't know much about them.

[CheepJerokee 0]

It's either dark, or your light is pointed at them...........they will never see it. The racking sound does have a great effect. But i won't bet my life on that half second needed to have the weapon unaimed while the round is slid in. If you have kids , get a lock box on the bed and keep it loaded. Besides, its much harder to deter someone with a handgun (them taking yours) than a rifle. Rifles are large and not as movable as a hand gun.They can be "grabbed" and used as a blunt object against her.(So could a hand gun if she dosn't pull the trigger till it goes click.) Tactically (Thats a over used word.), in close quarter, a handgun should would be much easier to wield when your half asleep, confused, scared................and really pi$$ed off.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

What about some kind of pistol caliber carbine?

[devildogdakota 804]

I have a pistol calibre carbine. .40 Hi-Point carbine. Little bastard is right on the nuts to 100 yrds, and ain't had a jam once in the past 500 rounds shot through her. Very light, very manuveurable, reliable, and cheap ( paid $185.00 last year new), 100% made in USA with the best warranty you can get for a gun. The .40 is a good self defense round.