IMPORTANT

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I posted this today in the MD Arms section, as a reply to an observation of unfavorable current events here, by our good buddy dodgeturbointerceptor.

He was spot on, as usual, and I feel it is important to bring this issue to the table on the main forum. Thank you dodge, for bringing this problem to the forefront. I have been wanting to find a way to express my concerns about it for some time.

 

Here is his post and my reply....

 

QUOTE (dodgeturbointerceptor @ Jul 18 2008, 11:35 PM) *

Wow. The vibe is a bit different around the ol' forum as of late. unsure.gif

 

 

 

Someone has redecorated. I keep tripping over the furniture/threads.

 

 

metaphorically speaking.

 

 

I can see why some people can't quite come to grips with the changes in attitude. I've been told by a few folks locally here that used to be pretty informative members of Saiga12.com that they have to filter through posts more than usual, and the gems just aren't there. And they see no need to post replies anymore. It kind of upset me as I like the people here, and I couldn't identify with their comments. But I haven't really been around alot lately due to my large amount of time in the field training for my upcoming deployment. And I've been on reading the last few days. I kind of see what they mean. I feel bad that a level headed Gentleman like Jugg really needs to wave his stick around. Maybe everyone should just go back to having fun with a gun?

 

I won't quit on my favorite shotgun, or it's fans. But I won't reply to too many of these type of posts anymore. Not that being a long term member, and multiple Saiga owner/converter means everything around here.

000.gif

 

 

You are 100% correct Tim. It makes it a hell of a lot less enjoyable for me personally, I know that much. Neither Juggs, nor I, should have to spend so much time "waving our sticks around".

I used to really enjoy coming here and helping people with everything from "stupid questions", to complex details about their conversions and stock gun operation. I still do, almost every day, in PMs and on the open forum.

These days though, it is much harder because I have to first wade through a gauntlet of fucking disrespectful, self serving, newbies and smartasses, who seem to only come here to make trouble. This place used to be a whole lot different than it is now. I've heard all the crap from super, self worshiping, know it alls, about how the forum has now reached that magic 10,000 member mark and some unavoidable transformation is taking place that requires a complete restructuring of the site.

I personally think that's a load of horse shit. The real problem is simple. We have grown so fast that more and more self serving assholes from other, more snooty, sites (not naming names) have infiltrated us. They do not care to come up through the ranks and learn from, or respect, those of us who have been here sharing knowledge openly since they were still off playing with their Mattel guns and scoffing at the AK platform.

TOO MANY of them were only attracted to this site, or introduced to it by doing a search for those god forsaken drums, and jumped right in here with their impatient rants and accusations everywhere they could find a spot to stain the place.

Then there are a few others who were also introduced here the same way, but are more respectful people and are a pleasure to talk to and share with.

 

I fear that the more of these other jerks though, that keep coming here and showing impatience, disrespect, and disregard for all that used to make this site great, the worse things will continue to get.

 

 

 

That is, unless we as a group (all members), work even harder to police ourselves, and single these losers out..... and stamp out the disease they are spreading on our once happy site.

 

And we as Mods need to stand strong together and be less forgiving, and more strict with these assclowns that are causing most of the trouble. I have been trying to do just that for over a year now. Unfortunately there are a rash of new members who have only come here recently, and who look at me as the bad guy, the "dramatic" type that is always bitching someone out for something, or stepping outside the range of what THEY think a moderator on OUR board needs to act like. Just because they have belonged to other forums before this one, they think they can just waltz right in here and tell us how to run ours. Well guess what? Screw that! Go back to your other forum if you don't like this one! We have been running this one the same way for YEARS now, and it is not the same as your daddy's forum. It is VERY different from most every forum on the web, AND WE LIKE IT THAT WAY!

If you come here to JUDGE people and complain about everything under the sun, SAVE IT! Tell it to your mommys.

 

It won't be tolerated here any more!

 

Because of people like that who get off on trolling and making trouble for the staff here, our forum has taken a turn for the worse and everyone can see that. It's time for it to come to an END.

 

We are growing and now have a very large membership, compared to what it used to be. It's still small though, compared to a few other well known gun sites I'm a long time member of. Those other sites don't tolerate assholes and troublemakers either. It's high time we brought the hammer down on the ones in our midst here, before they steer this place even farther down the wrong road!

 

We've got a pretty respectable group of business members here now too. Do y'all think THEY want to have their customers come to a site that's run so loosely that trolls and other trouble makers are the norm? I don't think so. In fact we would have even more vendors here if it were not for all the bickering and bullshit that goes on here all the time. I know of several who are sitting back and are not willing to join us because of all that bullshit. It's really sad. The fact is, there would be a whole lot less of it, if just a few troublesome newer members, and a few older ones....were to DISAPPEAR. If we make examples out of them, then maybe the others will see this and stop causing so many problems around here. If they don't like the way things are run around here, they need to stop their crying and bitching, and move the hell on to somewhere else. If they need a little push to get them to grow up and leave the nest, I for one will be happy to accommodate.

 

Lets all try to help keep the negativity down around here and get back to what the place used to be, a place for people to talk about Saigas and learn from each other. This site is a vast database of useful information. It is made up of the most knowledgeable Saiga builders and enthusiasts on the web. We are going to have a huge wave of new membership over the next few months, with the increased number of imported Saigas.

 

Can we please try and give them something to be a proud part of, instead of something to laugh at?

 

 

 

<climbs off soapbox and fills it with tannerite...watches it go boom> 007.gif

[getitat 609]

I humbly hang my dog-shit dipped head and watch your tannerite soapbox go boom! Semi-plumpness is achieved with the substantial explosion.

 

You da man, Cobra.

 

Respectfully posted,

 

guido2 in Houston

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Basically, I spend more time now playing "Traffic Cop" that helping people out any more.

I HATE IT when I HAVE to use the Mod controls. I take no joy in it at all....

I'd rather be getting on with the day to day.

Just like people in traffic, many choose to scream at the Cop for busting them...

I DO have a whole new respect for LEOs.....

 

I have been accused of all kinds of crazy stuff.. like how we gang up on noobs, ect....

 

I'll be the first to admit... I'm worn thin by all the jokers who log on and whine about MD Arms..

I DO NOT have time to "Hold Hands" with all of them when the info is clearly posted and stickied.

 

Dodge and Cobra are DEAD ON!

 

If people beg for attention... do we give it to them?

 

I say we throw them harder than Dr. Procter.....

 

It's getting to the point where you got to wade through the turds to get to any information at all...

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Guido 2 what are saying hang your head? Dude you are one of the good ones here. Always have been.

[waltham_41 52]

Bout damm time. Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war! If they need to go for the better of the whole, boot em.

 

I have seen people recently disrespect you mods and could not believe their attitudes. Its that sitting safely behind a monitor syndrome.

 

Thankless job you mods have, don't envy you a bit.

 

 

EDIT, got my cheesy phrase wrong. Fixed it.

Edited July 19, 2008 by waltham_41

[Juggernaut 11,054]

I humbly hang my dog-shit dipped head and watch your tannerite soapbox go boom! Semi-plumpness is achieved with the substantial explosion.

 

You da man, Cobra.

 

Respectfully posted,

 

guido2 in Houston

 

Dude, you're one of the three reasons I want to move to Texas!

[getitat 609]

Hey, Bro....Just let me know, I'll do what I can to pave the way.....

 

Very respectfully posted,

guido2 in Houston

[getitat 609]

Aw,,shucks....Now I'm blushing.....

 

I know everybody on here could pitch-in to make things run a bit smoother. I think that's the result of folks like you and Juggs and Turbo et al steppin' up to help folks like me just a couple of short years ago, now we can shoulder a lot of the load so you don't have to.

I bet you're pretty tired of answering the same noob questions by now anyway.

 

that way you mod's will have more time available for lightin'-up and smokin' all the smart-asses that need it.

 

guido2 in Houston

 

Guido 2 what are saying hang your head? Dude you are one of the good ones here. Always have been.

[knutz 0]

I really don't care what you guys decide to do but.....

 

As long as this site has vendor specific forums and paid vendors you will have this problem.

 

From my own personal experience in running my own business I've been on all sides of the issue. Sometimes the customer has unreasonable expectations, sometimes the vendor promises something that can't be delivered or be delivered on time, Sometimes the customer is one that will never be happy no matter what and sometimes the vendor di actually screw up.

 

Anyways....

 

I'm not trying to say anything about whether it's good or bad to vendors associated with the site. Cause basically you are gonna have problems even if they aren't here with this many members here. They'll just be different kinds of problems.

 

You guys gotta do what you gotta do to keep yourselves happy and the site owner.

 

And no matter what you are still gonna have problems between older members and newer members. Sometimes the newer guys will in fact not show any kind of common courtesy and other times it will just be some of the older who don't like anybody newer staking a claim on what they consider their turf.

 

it's a fine line to walk.

 

just my .02

[6500rpm 670]

This is my best take on the situation

 

Integrity

 

 

A strongly held sense of commitment to openness, honesty, inclusiveness and high standards in undertaking the leadership role.

 

Why it matters

 

Their Personal integrity enables leaders in the service to deal fairly, and communicate consistently, with service users, staff, and partners. This means that they do their best to ensure open access to information and that diversity is respected.

Motivated by a personal value about inclusiveness, effective leaders promote and model the openness needed in patient and carer relationships. Their integrity guides them when decision making is difficult and it underpins the confidence needed to take tough and radical action, even in the face of opposition. It helps them cope where the achievement of a goal that is about real service improvement in the long term appears, at least in the short term, to be disadvantageous to some groups.

 

1 Acts consistently

 

Behaves consistently with own stated values and beliefs.

Delivers on what they have promised, or is open about their own shortcomings.

Models and promotes the organisational values - ie 'walks the walk'.

 

2 Chooses transparency

 

Creates an environment of openness, cutting through ambiguity to provide clarity in communication.

Requires and expects others to be equally as open in their communication, with staff, patients and other stakeholders.

Uses plain language in communication to demystify clinical and other issues.

 

3 Shows personal courage

 

Stands up for what is right in terms of leading and developing health services, even when it is difficult to do so, and there may be a personal cost in doing so.

Acts as a role model for involvement of staff, patients and other stakeholders, even where this results in challenges to how things are done.

Is prepared to support others who are acting consistently with core values.

 

 

That may have been long and wordy, but that simple statement has made a huge difference in my life. In general, the Moderators here do a great job at maintaining their integrity. The problem is when members that come here from other boards where they know ANY B.S. will not be tollerated run around like a bunch of three year olds stirring up shit because the Saiga Forum has a reputation of being a place where guys can be guys.

 

"Will" is a good example of a guy being a guy on the forum. Sure he say's a lot of smart ass shit, but I don't remember him being disrespectfull to the moderators or the forum, and in the end, his posts usually make me laugh which is one reason I've been around so long. We have a lot of "Will's", but unfortunately, we have an increasingly large number of jackasses too and sometime, "YOU" as moderators have to deal with the situation. As long as you do it with a level of INTEGRITY, you have nothing to be sorry or ashamed of. The Forum is a much different place than when it started, but don't take that as a negative thing, there's been a lot of growth and a lot of you can take credit for the increase for the demand and popularity of our favorite gun.

 

Life can be too short......enjoy it

[Bayoupiper 738]

And here I thought all my sarcasm was cute.....................

[Paladin 37]

I think you guys do a great job, especially considering some of the "special" people we have on board here (yea, like me- when my panties get all twisted up on certain subjects). Perhaps you guys are spread too thin?

 

Some of the other boards I'm on have many more mods, and/or a quicker trigger finger on the ban button. I really do hate to see you guys getting your blood pressure up trying to control things.

[getitat 609]

Face it, Will....Too damn cute!

 

guido2 in Houston

 

And here I thought all my sarcasm was cute.....................

[waltham_41 52]

I humbly hang my dog-shit dipped head and watch your tannerite soapbox go boom! Semi-plumpness is achieved with the substantial explosion.

 

You da man, Cobra.

 

Respectfully posted,

 

guido2 in Houston

 

Dude, you're one of the three reasons I want to move to Texas!

 

 

Juggernaut, I have to ask, what are the other two reasons?

[Juggernaut 11,054]

I humbly hang my dog-shit dipped head and watch your tannerite soapbox go boom! Semi-plumpness is achieved with the substantial explosion.

 

You da man, Cobra.

 

Respectfully posted,

 

guido2 in Houston

 

Dude, you're one of the three reasons I want to move to Texas!

 

 

Juggernaut, I have to ask, what are the other two reasons?

 

1911 and the Doggone Alamo!

 

"Come and Take It" Crimmigrants!

[waltham_41 52]

Never have been to the Alamo, but have been by it. Hard to believe such a small place is such a large part of our history. Who doesnt know "remember the Alamo!"

 

I am sure 1911 would be worth the drive too.

[BearCreek 0]

Juggs, I am in San Antonio... I will help ya defend it --- again!!

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Here comes le cucarachas. Across the Rio Grande

Shaking their maracas invading my homeland

No sign of integration its simple infiltration

To disrespect the legalized - break into our Nation.

 

There is a taco bell-Next to the Alamo

It just goes to show you-America needs more men like John Wayne

To drive them south of the boarder again

We must have National pride, Americans rise!

 

Here comes le cucarachas. To pick all the tomatoes

En (bente) in le casa La raza el invado!

My neighborhood el stinko, my country down the drinko

The ACLU sold us out Death to those fuckin Pinkos!There is a taco

bell-Next to the Alamo

It just goes to show you-America needs more men like John Wayne

To drive them south of the boarder again

We must have National pride, Americans rise!

 

 

Jose Can you see. By the Dawns early light

The Gallant did gleam as they rose up to fight

We dug in our heels ramparts reinforced

We'll stand once again against invading hordes

The rockets red glare showed us the way

We once were a nation of fighting brigades

Bombs bursting with truth gave proof to our plight

This Flag we defend, our country- our lives!

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

I started to post something cute (like Will ) about Saiga Sharia Law. Instead let me just acknowledge the moderators hardships and encourage you to be as vigilant and quick fingered as you feel necessary. You gentlemen do a great job and are much appreciated by the board members as is Max. As the board grows, there will be growing pains. If they get to where they are unnecessary, too painful, or counter productive simply throw them out. This is an exclusive private club and if you can't fit in then you should go elsewhere. Be aware I am not your chuckleberry. (couldn't help myself) I have seen far too many families ruined by a lack of discipline to endorse it.

 

1911

[22_Shooter 1,560]

I do see a lot of disrespect here sometimes. I wonder if those kind of people are like that in "real life", or if they develop the dickhead status just because they can do it, pretty much, anonymously. I try to act like I do in "real life", and be courteous and helpful.........with some light-hearted wise-cracking mixed in .

 

Let's hope things level out around here, but like 1911 said: "As the board grows, there will be growing pains."

 

Big ups to the Mods and Makc . I think sometimes people forget that this is not a paid job for moderators. They are putting up with bullshit and stress that they actually don't even have to deal with. But choose to, because of their dedication to this place. You gotta respect that.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the abuse I get from you guys..... It's allot of fun.

 

But that's far from the issue we are discussing here....

 

I also look to you all to if I'm using my "powers" in a proper manner.

 

Even if just for some internet gun board, I never want to abuse anything.

 

I do my best to balance everyones input and Max wishes to the best of my ability....

 

I'll be the first to admit, I have made some bad calls... I do my best to fix them if I do...

[G O B 3,516]

The mods here do an outstanding job. We have grown large, the snivelling asshats with no Idea of how to be an adult are a drag on good cyberspace. I love the freedom here - but freedom does not work without responsibility.

Juggs, if they ain't got no respect, chop 'em off at the knees and forget them. A bar is only as good as the bouncers.

[moxie1c 3]

None of our Mods should be afraid of standing up the way that they have and will continue to do. I check in here at least twice a day and I see a lot of those topics and discussions that are in question. You are all doing a fine job and furthermore; you should not be bashful about asking any of us for help!

 

I love my saiga and I love this board! I have left many boards because of the reasons that Tim has stated but right now I do not have that desire to go. I see such a great community with such a specific common interest (which is not well-received up here in Ted Kennedy's northeastern states) that I do not have the will power to just walk away.

 

Now back to closing of the first paragraph when I stated that you all should not be afraid to ask us for help. Help how, I am not exactly sure but I do have some vague ideas, and I'm not afraid to say it right here right now...there have been a few occasions where I have written a PM to a mod here and had them take care of something. Could I have simply replied to the persons post or thread, yes...would it have helped diffuse the situation the same way the same words form a mod would, no.

 

SO mods, Cobra--Juggs--Indy--and Tritium. What can we faithful followers do to assist you in making this forum as growth friendly as possible? As informative as possible? As fun as possible?

 

Barack says we need to have a conversation about race in America...you are all saying we need to have a conversation about our beloved forum. Screw Obama and lets get down to our business.

[rangerdavid 6]

What a truly great and valued forum this place is. We have knowledgeable experienced amateur builders, folks who enjoy this just as a hobby, members who are interested in competition shooting, self and home defense, SHTF scenarios, and some of the top professional builders and marketers in the country and in the world on here. I can come on and ask a question, get answers from people who are at the same exact stage of conversion I am, as well as builders who have built dozens, and pros who have built hundreds.

 

I've also engaged in spirited political discussions on occasion with my colleagues here, and have received respect for my opinions when they differ from others, and returned the same respect.

 

I think the Mods couldn't do a better job. Period. I support them and Makc. I respect them, and Makc. Period.

 

I contribute to this forum because it is valuable to me personally, I think this forum helps promote the saiga and AK platform in a more professional manner than other web sites I've seen do, and because I think this site is good for the gun owners, the promotion and in a small way, the protection of our rights to bear and keep arms, and all the lifestyles that coincide with these ideals.

 

This forum is growing, and with it growing pains and progress. Saiga-12 will survive, and will do quite fine. the trolls will move on, the trouble makers will tire and move away, or die out, or piss someone off in real life and disappear.

 

So, that being said, I'm here. I support this forum in mind and in deed, and would do so in any other way if asked. Proud to be a member.

 

David

Edited July 20, 2008 by rangerdavid

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Don't forget about the boobies.....

even if we do have to post them in the funny stuff section now.....

[Huckleberry 0]

I started to post something cute (like Will ) about Saiga Sharia Law. Instead let me just acknowledge the moderators hardships and encourage you to be as vigilant and quick fingered as you feel necessary. You gentlemen do a great job and are much appreciated by the board members as is Max. As the board grows, there will be growing pains. If they get to where they are unnecessary, too painful, or counter productive simply throw them out. This is an exclusive private club and if you can't fit in then you should go elsewhere. Be aware I am not your chuckleberry. (couldn't help myself) I have seen far too many families ruined by a lack of discipline to endorse it.

 

1911

I'll pass on that one for the good of the corp.

[waltham_41 52]

I started to post something cute (like Will ) about Saiga Sharia Law. Instead let me just acknowledge the moderators hardships and encourage you to be as vigilant and quick fingered as you feel necessary. You gentlemen do a great job and are much appreciated by the board members as is Max. As the board grows, there will be growing pains. If they get to where they are unnecessary, too painful, or counter productive simply throw them out. This is an exclusive private club and if you can't fit in then you should go elsewhere. Be aware I am not your chuckleberry. (couldn't help myself) I have seen far too many families ruined by a lack of discipline to endorse it.

 

1911

I'll pass on that one for the good of the corp.

 

 

Wise move, sometimes its best not to poke the bear and just let it slide.

 

This place is more help about saigas and the AK platform than you will find just about anywhere, and although there are some bumping of heads from time to time everyone is here for one of two things. To learn or to help others learn. All in all a good bunch of fellows (an ladies).

[Huckleberry 0]

I started to post something cute (like Will ) about Saiga Sharia Law. Instead let me just acknowledge the moderators hardships and encourage you to be as vigilant and quick fingered as you feel necessary. You gentlemen do a great job and are much appreciated by the board members as is Max. As the board grows, there will be growing pains. If they get to where they are unnecessary, too painful, or counter productive simply throw them out. This is an exclusive private club and if you can't fit in then you should go elsewhere. Be aware I am not your chuckleberry. (couldn't help myself) I have seen far too many families ruined by a lack of discipline to endorse it.

 

1911

I'll pass on that one for the good of the corp.

 

 

Wise move, sometimes its best not to poke the bear and just let it slide.

 

This place is more help about saigas and the AK platform than you will find just about anywhere, and although there are some bumping of heads from time to time everyone is here for one of two things. To learn or to help others learn. All in all a good bunch of fellows (an ladies).

 

Makes sense to me. It's those that set behind their monitor pushing buttons rather than offering positive remarks like you. A lot can be learned by paying attention to your take on things rather than making negative remarks.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Why, I could not agree more

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Don't forget about the boobies.....

even if we do have to post them in the funny stuff section now.....

I second that motion!