27 replies to this topic

[Vultite]

I've gotten a itch for a 12 gauge shot pistol, most are saloon type coach guns that have a 10" or less barrel, pretty wicked thing but so far all i have seen are antiques or some sorta bubba'd up AOW shotgun. Anyone know what the standard on these are or laws?

[Thumbhole]

I've gotten a itch for a 12 gauge shot pistol, most are saloon type coach guns that have a 10" or less barrel, pretty wicked thing but so far all i have seen are antiques or some sorta bubba'd up AOW shotgun. Anyone know what the standard on these are or laws?

As long as the receiver of the gun never had a stock they are classified as "Any Other Weapons". The old looking double barrel types are normally classified as SBSs because they almost always include a stock from the factory. To own an AOW you have to jump through the same hoops as with any other title 2 (nfa) item, EXCEPT that it only costs $5 for the tax stamp instead of the normal $200.

[Vultite]

right, i understand all that, but i'm talking about the "saloon" type 12 gauge pistols, no stock , just a odd pistol grip with a short barrel....the old ones aren't classified as AOW's, so i'm wondering if the new ones (if there are any) would be the same?

Edited by Vultite, 03 August 2008 - 11:17 AM.

[Banshee]

right, i understand all that, but i'm talking about the "saloon" type 12 gauge pistols, no stock , just a odd pistol grip with a short barrel....the old ones aren't classified as AOW's, so i'm wondering if the new ones (if there are any) would be the same?

I would guess that any factory coach gun would come with a butt stock, so with that being it could only be made into a SBS. Yes, you can cut the butt stock off and make it into a pistol grip on a SBS.

[BobAsh]

....the old ones aren't classified as AOW's, so i'm wondering if the new ones (if there are any) would be the same?

You're talking about guns made before the NFA. The term AOW didn't exist until 1968 when the Gun Control Act was written.

An AOW is: "...any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or more, less than 18" in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition." 26 U.S.C. sec. 5845(e).


A 12-gage "pistol" made today would be an AOW. However, the receiver of a smooth bore pistol, in order to be an AOW, must not have had a shoulder stock attached to it, ever. In fact such a device could even be ruled a Destructive Device by ATF, since it's bore is over 1/2" dia.

[HillBilly2]

I really hate trying to understand legal talk. It seems its meant to confuse more than anything. At any rate, how do the 410 derringers and double barrel pistols get excluded? is it the bore size, the fact that they can chamber a 45LC, or what?

[nalioth]

I really hate trying to understand legal talk. It seems its meant to confuse more than anything. At any rate, how do the 410 derringers and double barrel pistols get excluded? is it the bore size, the fact that they can chamber a 45LC, or what?

They have rifled bores.

[BobAsh]

nalioth is correct. The language isn't meant to confuse, it has to be written to include every possible permutation.
I'll break it down a little. From 26 U.S.C. sec. 5845(e):

AOW IS: Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;
1) a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, (shotgun pistols)
2) weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or more, less than 18" in length, (this phrase is so you can't just add on a rifled barrel and call it a pistol)

AOW IS NOT:
1) a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores,
2) weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder
3) and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. (this clause rules out various black powder weapons)

I hope that helps.

Edited by BobAsh, 03 August 2008 - 07:50 PM.

[HillBilly2]

Thanks Bob, That helps, kinda, its still a foreign language to me lol. I appreciate the effort to educate an ignorant hillbilly.

[Vultite]

gah, crazyness, guess i'll be looking for a antique then =D thanks guys

[Twinsen]

Wouldn't transfer of an antique require contacting BATFE over NFA stuffs?

[second shooter]

Your laws are as confusing and irrational as ours! if i understand correctly if has rifleing you are able to turn it into a handgun?just throwing a few ideas into the hat, why not get a factory rifled 12ga pump and cut that down to pistol size, and just put slugs thru it. another idea is getting a 12ga barrel rifled,all it needs is one land and one groove and its technically rifled and the rate of twist only needs to be a couple of degrees over the length of the barrel and and it would be imparting spin but not enough to effect the wad and shot greatly?

[Twinsen]

If the receiver is originally registered as a Shotgun, it can never be anything other than a Shotgun or Short-Barreled-Shotgun. If it is a Pistol, I think it can be SBR-ed or AOWed. A second grip would be the AOW route, a stock for SBR.

There is no easy way to go about NFA, that's the whole point of it, to be annoying and restrict gun ownership.

If a gun has rifling, and no stock from the factory, it might as well be registered as a pistol, whatever caliber it may fire. But then you can't ever put a stock on it without going NFA and paying $200 and waiting for SBR. The only cool thing that anybody has done with the "rifling means a pistol" thing is .410 pistols like the Taurus Judge and novelty guns (that I know of). Tiny 12gauge guns I always see non-rifled and in AOW form.

I ass-ume it is possible to build a Pistol 12ga non-NFA gun by making a virgin receiver and mating it to a cut rifled slug barrel. I couldn't say for sure though, nor would I even care, because that just sounds like a huge waste of time to save $5 and make a gun slug only for its entire life. I believe the written laws are on the side of this being possible, but the large cartridge alone probably has caused BATFE to put up something to stop this from being possible. They might even say this would be a DD, which would be a regular $200 tax stamp.

Bob, slap me if anything I said was off line.

[BobAsh]

Thanks Bob, That helps, kinda...

Well, if it's small and concealable, and has a smooth bore it's AOW.

Unless it originally had a buttstock, in which case it would be a shotgun forever.

I ass-ume it is possible to build a Pistol 12ga non-NFA gun by making a virgin receiver and mating it to a cut rifled slug barrel. I couldn't say for sure though, nor would I even care, because that just sounds like a huge waste of time to save $5 and make a gun slug only for its entire life. I believe the written laws are on the side of this being possible, but the large cartridge alone probably has caused BATFE to put up something to stop this from being possible. They might even say this would be a DD, which would be a regular $200 tax stamp.

Yaeh, I think that sounds about right. I can't imagine they would let you get the reach-around like that. Probably would go DD.

[RDSWriter]

(1) a smoothbore pistol is an AOW, and (2) a rifled pistol greater than 50cal is a DD. That being said, the ATF measures bore diameter differently for pistols than for rifles. That's why 50BMG is legal in a rifle, but in a pistol format it is a destructive device. So what does this mean... well, that any 12 gauge or 20 gauge pistol with a barrel less than 18 inches would be an NFA item - if the barrel is smooth it would be an AOW, if the barrel is rifled it would be a DD.

The wierdest thing to me about a pistol being a DD is that a DD can use a stock. So technically, an individual could Form 1 a shotgun pistol receiver with a rifled barrel less than 18 inches. After Form 1 approval, the owner could not only assembe the short barrel on the receiver, they could also install a stock - as a DD does not exclude the use of a stock. So for those of you who live in Alabama or another state that doesn't allow SBSs, you could go this route and get your short-barreled shotgun with a stock (which you could not register as an SBS, but you could start with a pistol shotgun and go the DD route).



For detail... the BATFE measures rifle diameter from land to land and pistols from groove to groove. What follows is perhaps the best explanation I've ever read to be able to understand this topic of when a pistol becomes a DD.

----- Summary of post by Mike Searson on calguns.net -----

Rifling consists of grooves cut or formed in a spiral nature, lengthwise down the barrel of a firearm. The lands are the raised areas between two grooves. In a .50 BMG caliber bbl the land to land measurement is .500"; that is where the cutoff point for destructive devices ends. In a .50 BMG caliber bbl the groove to groove measurement is .511" which is greater than .500" and this is where the BATFE measures pistols.

The Desert Eagle actually had to be redesigned as a result of the BATF rule change that measures pistols groove to groove. Here is an excerpt from a Guns & Ammo Article by John Taffin in August, 2005. http://www.findartic...51/ai_n14694946.

"The Desert Eagle in .50 Action Express was announced long before it was available, and this first of the really large-caliber production semiautos was a long time coming for a couple of reasons. In the early 1980s it was offered in "lesser" calibers, the .357, .44, and .41 Magnums to set the stage for a truly big bore. Then the Persian Gulf War put civilian arms on hold for nearly a year at Israeli Military Industries. The .50 had been promised to shooters at the 1991 SHOT Show and deliveries finally started after the 1992 SHOT Show.

A further delay was caused by ATF regulations. There is a little known law on the books that says handguns may not be over 1/2" in bore diameter. One more of those laws that do not have to be logical and a further problem, as with so many laws, is with the interpretation. If interpreted as written, the original .50 Action Express could have been legal as the bore diameter was .500", not over 1/2". but the groove diameter was .511".

Whoever was making the decisions ruled the Desert Eagle .50 Express was over 1/2" in bore diameter and it was back to the drawing board. As now manufactured, the Desert Eagle .50 Action Express takes bullets of .500" in diameter rather than .511". so bore diameter is now around .49 caliber and groove diameter is .50 caliber and neither is over the magical 1/2" size. Both the currently produced Guncrafter Industries .50 GI and the .500 Smith & Wesson Model 500 also use the same diameter bullets as the .50 Action Express. I'm only guessing, however I surmise the .50 Action Express Desert Eagle may not have come under such scrutiny had it been a revolver instead of such a menacing-looking semiauto. Remember Senator Moynihan's belief and statement to the effect these were anti-tank guns?".

A .50 BMG pistol had been built a few years before this by Maadi Griffin and was declared a destructive device. If you have the desire to go through back issues (1986-1989) of American Survival Guide Magazine, you can find pictures and the ruling, etc.

----- End -----

Edited by RDSWriter, 04 August 2008 - 09:57 PM.

[nalioth]

Wouldn't transfer of an antique require contacting BATFE over NFA stuffs?

Antiques (and modern copies of blackpowder guns) are not subject to the NFA

Otherwise, these would be illegal:



Edited for clarity.

Edited by nalioth, 04 August 2008 - 09:59 PM.

[RDSWriter]

Nalioth is correct, and the item pictured above is blackpowder based. Blackpowder devices are not regulated as firearms per Federal statute. Hence no NFA applies. Center fire ammunition firearms are subject to the NFA with very few exceptions. All new copies of antiques (that use centerfire ammunition) are restricted as either Title 1 or Title 2 firearms depending on their configuration. True antique firearms don't requre a 4473, nor do blackpowder 'firearms'... that's why they can be shipped directly to the buyer or sold over-the-counter with no paperwork.

So what are the 'very few exceptions'?... Here's a quote from the ATF NFA Handbook.

Firearms defined by the NFA as "antique firearms" are not subject to any controls under the NFA. The NFA defines antique firearms based on their date of manufacture and type of ignition system used to fire a projectile. Any firearm manufacture in or before 1898 that is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition is an antique firearm. Additionally any firearm using matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type ignition sytem, irrespective of the actual date of manufacture of the firearm, is also an antique firearm.

NFA firearms using fixed ammuntition are antique firearm ONLY if the weapon was actually manufactured in or before 1898 AND the ammunition for the firearm is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily avialable in the ordinary channels of commercial trade. To qualify as an antique firearm, a fixed cartridge NFA weapon must meet BOTH the age and ammunition availability standards of the definition.

Edited by RDSWriter, 04 August 2008 - 09:54 PM.

[madmax4x4]

Wouldn't transfer of an antique require contacting BATFE over NFA stuffs?

Antiques (or modern copies of antiques) are not subject to the NFA

Otherwise, these would be illegal:

Hu? So are you saying that wouldn't be consederd SBR
nevermind I didn't know it was blackpowder.

Edited by madmax4x4, 04 August 2008 - 09:39 PM.

[BobAsh]

^ would be SBR if it took cartridges.

[bobotech]

Wouldn't transfer of an antique require contacting BATFE over NFA stuffs?

Antiques (and modern copies of blackpowder guns) are not subject to the NFA

Otherwise, these would be illegal:



Edited for clarity.

I know this is an old thread but this reminds me of a question I have had.

If I were to put a R&D conversion cylinder into that carbine, would that be illegal without stamping it?

[1911]

Wouldn't transfer of an antique require contacting BATFE over NFA stuffs?

Antiques (and modern copies of blackpowder guns) are not subject to the NFA

Otherwise, these would be illegal:



Edited for clarity.

I know this is an old thread but this reminds me of a question I have had.

If I were to put a R&D conversion cylinder into that carbine, would that be illegal without stamping it?

Yes, if the "R&D conversion cylinder" uses modern cartridge ammunition.

[lance]

whats wrong with this one?

16 inch overall
can be had in a 870 or mossberg 500 flavor

http://serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

[BobAsh]

Nothing wrong with it other than it only takes 2 shells. It's an AOW not a pistol, as we already discussed.

[reelkaos]

I have always wanted on of these. Chuck had one.

[bayonet lug]

A S&W 500 is almost like a 12g slug. lol

[king a]

OK folks, there's a little misinformation here. ATF classifies rifles OR pistols over .50 caliber as being DD's except those that are approved as having a 'sporting purpose' (i.e. 600 Nitro, 700 Nitro, etc). The reason that pistols like the Judge are NFA-exempt is because they have a rifled bore (like a pistol) and are under .50 caliber. This is why you don't see 28ga revolvers/pistols. Any smoothbore gun (regardless of whether it is a pistol or shotgun) with a barrel length under 18" or an OAL under 26" is considered an SBS or an AOW depending on how it was built and the host gun. An AOW has to be built from a virgin receiver or a receiver that left the factory with a pistol grip and has never had a buttstock attached (I know, its a stupid law but that's the BATF for you). An AOW can never have a buttstock attached (unless you resubmit it for SBS classification and pay the $200 SBS tax). An SBS can be made from any receiver and can have a buttstock or pistol grip attached to it, however, there is a $200 tax for constructing it, and every time it is transferred.

If you build a 12ga 'pistol' with a smoothbore on a receiver that came from the factory with a pistol grip installed (such as the Mossberg Cruiser), then it would be an AOW.

If you build a 12ga 'pistol' with a smoothbore on a receiver that came from the factory with a buttstock installed, then it would be an SBS.

If you build a 12ga 'shorty' with a smoothbore on a receiver that came from the factory with a buttstock installed, then it would be an SBS.

If you build a 12ga 'pistol' with a rifled barrel on a receiver that came from the factory with a pistol grip installed (such as the Mossberg Cruiser), then it would likely be a DD (since it would be a rifled pistol over .50 caliber).

If you build a 12ga 'shorty' with a rifled barrel on a receiver that came from the factory with a buttstock installed, then it would likely be a DD (since it would be a rifle with a caliber over .50 caliber).

[patriot]

BE CAREFUL!! I have a shorty 12ga double (pistol grip, 18.5" barrels, >26" OAL) and just mangled my hand with it.

I was stupid and decided to ignore the power of full load black powder rounds. I pulled both triggers on 2 shells holding 110gr of FFg and 1 oz of shot each. I've done this numerous times, staggering the trigger pulls so as to get two nearly simultaneous thundering shots. (I like the noise) Well, this time I forgot to stagger my trigger pulls. The recoil was so severe that it drove the locking lever over 1/2" into the web of my hand and severely bruised the muscles at the base of my thumb, to the middle of my palm, and down toward my wrist in the back. Not much pain, really, just one hell of an impact and then numbness, which wore off in a few minutes. Not much blood. It felt kind of like I smashed my hand with a large hammer.

I emptied the gun and looked INTO my hand, seeing bare muscle and sinew. It's a strange experience, looking INTO your own hand. This happened on the 1st Sunday this month. It has since healed closed, with no signs of infection, after some minor surgery by me to remove damaged tissue.

Luckily, I don't think I caused any major lasting damage. Today, I have complete light use of it, but any strain or pressure causes pain. It will be another four weeks minimum until the tissue is completely healed.

Shorty shotguns are a lot of fun, but BE CAREFUL. Start with LIGHT LOADS and keep a death grip on it until you are used to it. A wrist brace isn't a bad idea either, initially.

If you don't have a good, strong grip and strong wrists I wouldn't recommend it. I'm pretty strong and I got bit.

Edited by patriot, 22 November 2008 - 05:32 PM.

[pillnob]

try a serbu super shorty.