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Russian jets attack Georgian city as battles rage

Hundreds feared dead in South Ossetia; Bush calls Medvedev, Saakashvili

 

Soldiers run through the town of Gori on Saturday after a Russian air bombardment.

Aug. 9, 2008

TBILISI, Georgia - Russia sent hundreds of tanks and troops into the separatist province of South Ossetia and bombed Georgian towns Saturday in a major escalation of the conflict that has left scores of civilians dead and wounded.

 

Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, launched a major offensive Friday to retake control of breakaway South Ossetia. Russia, which has close ties to the province and posts peacekeepers there, responded by sending in armed convoys and military combat aircraft.

 

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told reporters in Moscow that some 1,500 people have been killed, with the death toll rising Saturday.

 

The figure could not be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the fighting said hundreds of civilians had probably died. They said most of the provincial capital, Tskhinvali, was in ruins, with bodies lying everywhere.

 

The air and artillery bombardment left the provincial capital without water, food, electricity and gas. Horrified civilians crawled out of the basements into the streets as fighting eased, looking for supplies.

 

Russian Gen. Vladimir Boldyrev claimed in televised comments Saturday that Russian troops had driven Georgian forces out of the provincial capital. Witnesses confirmed that there was no sign of Georgian soldiers in the streets.

 

Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili proposed a cease-fire Saturday. As part of his proposal, Georgian troops were pulled out of Tskhinvali and had been ordered to stop responding to Russian shelling, said Alexander Lomaia, secretary of his Security Council.

 

Russia did not immediately respond to Saakashvili's proposal. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had said earlier that Moscow sent troops into South Ossetia to force Georgia into a cease-fire.

 

Lomaia said there had been direct fighting between Russian and Georgian soldiers on the streets of Tskhinvali. He estimated that Russia sent 2,500 troops into Georgia. The Russian military has not said how many of its troops were deployed.

 

Russian military aircraft also bombed the Georgian town of Gori on Saturday. An Associated Press reporter who visited Gori shortly afterward saw several apartment buildings in ruins, some still on fire, and scores of dead bodies and bloodied civilians. The elderly, women and children were among the victims.

 

"Georgia is facing Russia's military aggression," Saakashvili said, noting that Russian forces were attacking areas outside South Ossetia. "Georgian authorities support a cease-fire and separation of the warring parties."

 

It is the worst outbreak of hostilities since the province won de facto independence in a war against Georgia that ended in 1992.

 

Threats of a wider war

The fighting threatens to ignite a wider war between Russia and Georgia, which accused Russia of bombing its towns, ports and air bases. Georgia, a former Soviet republic with ambitions of joining NATO, has asked the international community to help end what it called Russian aggression.

 

It also likely will increase tensions between Moscow and Washington, which Lavrov said should bear part of the blame for arming and training Georgian soldiers.

 

 

Moscow has said it needs to protect its peacekeepers and civilians in South Ossetia, most of whom have been given Russian passports. Ethnic Ossetians live in the breakaway Georgian province and in the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia.

 

Overnight, Russian warplanes bombed the Vaziani military base on the outskirts of the Georgian capital and near the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili said. He also said two other military bases were hit, and that warplanes bombed the Black Sea port city of Poti, which has a sizable oil shipment facility.

 

Peacekeepers killed

Georgia, meanwhile, said it has shot down 10 Russian planes, including four brought down Saturday, according to Kakha Lomaya, head of Georgia's Security Council.

 

The first Russian confirmation that its planes had been shot down came Saturday from Russian Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy chief of the General Staff, who said two Russian planes were downed. He did not say where or when.

 

Russian military commanders said 15 peacekeepers have been killed and about 150 wounded. Russian troops went in as peacekeepers but Georgia alleges they now back the separatists.

 

Russian military spokesman Col. Igor Konashenkov accused Georgian troops of killing and wounded Russian peacekeepers when they seized Russian checkpoints. Konashenkov's allegations couldn't be independently confirmed Saturday.

 

 

 

Russia's foreign minister said that Georgia brought the airstrikes upon itself by bombing civilians and Russian peacekeepers, and warned that the small Caucasus country should expect more attacks.

 

"Whatever side is used to bomb civilians and the positions of peacekeepers, this side is not safe and they should know this," Lavrov said.

 

Asked whether Russia could bomb the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, Lavrov answered: "I don't think the bombing is coming from Tbilisi, but whatever part of Georgia is used for this aggression is not safe."

 

It was unclear what might persuade either side to stop shooting. Both claim the battle started after the other side violated a cease-fire that had been declared just hours earlier after a week of sporadic clashes.

 

Diplomats have issued a flurry of statements calling on both sides to halt the fighting and called for another emergency session of the U.N. Security Council, its second since early Friday morning seeking to prevent an all-out war.

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The crazy thing about it is that if you look at the video of the places they were fighting, it looks a whole lot like a lot of cities in the United States. We're not talking about some sub-Saharan sand dune, this is an actual civilized urban area. Kinda hits close to home.

Check out the video. It could be my city.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm

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"Russia insists it has been acting as a peacekeeper in South Ossetia, rejecting Georgian accusations that it has been supplying arms to the separatists."

 

So that's where the last shipment went.

 

And while I don't agree with Bean above I cannot really argue against him.

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Georgia is the most pro-western of all the former Soviet block countries and is trying to join NATO. The Russians do NOT want this to happen in their backyard.

 

The Russians have been supporting the breakaway region and have extended Russian benefits, etc. For Georgia to be approved for NATO they must have a unified country so they picked now, before the next NATO membership meeting, to send in their troops to ensure their control of this region that has separatist feelings.

 

The Russians for their part have reacted with a heavy hand and are bombing outside of the disputed area, this could get interesting.

Edited by Paladin
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rememeber the school killings in southern russia a few years ago?

 

besides, if Georgia cannot keep thier military under CONTROL, and some branch breaks off and shells russian peacekeepers????

 

 

I say let the Russians take care of it.

 

I always thought it was in Russia's best interest to free Georgia, then declare war on it.

 

And let the Saiga's FLOW.

 

Me personally, not like it matters any? I have NO PROBLEM with Russia's actions. They were our Allies once, and should be our Allies again, and we should let them handle their own affairs, as we would think of an Ally.

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by the way, did anyone see the exchange and look on our president's face at the olympic opening ceremony, when (apparantly) Putin informed him of the invasion?

 

Man, has George had a rough presidency. I bet he cant wait to go fishing!

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I'm sure we can all read the news (from around the world to get a "better" picture of course).

 

 

Essentially, Russia moved into the South Ossetia to support the break away province (and had peace keepers there already).

Georgia had its disputes with South Ossetia and its unclear "who" broke a cease fire. BUT, when Russia crossed what Georgia considers it's border, they decided to attack the Russian forces.

So yes, Georgia shot 1st.... and now that this has happened, Russia is taking the stance that it will defend its citizens (90% of South Ossetia people carry Russian passports -which Russia considers making them citizens).

 

 

Aside from all that, the bombing of civilian targets is deplorable (my opinion). However, the act of bombing "Georgia" in general is not out of question in the Russian view. After all, the Georgian planes and tanks, fuel points, troop movements all have to come from somewhere -they figure to cripple all of that -and then some!

Sad fact of a doctrine.

 

Keep in mind that Russia not only came though South Ossetia (that's a serious mountain pass), the also landed by sea as well.

 

 

As for how this affects our imports of S-12's? Honestly, how self centered can you get? This could blow into something big and quick because the current US administration tends to take a hard stance about things like this (not that we can do squat about it...nor should we).

Not trying to insult....but c'mon, there's a much larger issue here depending if this becomes a proxy war or Russia decides it wants to redraw the map lines.

Edited by whatmanual
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by the way, did anyone see the exchange and look on our president's face at the olympic opening ceremony, when (apparantly) Putin informed him of the invasion?

 

Man, has George had a rough presidency. I bet he cant wait to go fishing!

Yeah I saw that.

Kinda like the look he had on his face on 9/11 when they told him the news in that classroom...

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the 20% terrrorist following in Georgia apparantly (from what I can tell, lowly me) initiated ANOTHER attack.

 

 

Russia has its own war on terror to deal with.

 

Because it is not me and you approving of it, does not make it any different.

 

Russia is NOT the big bad evil thing that we all were taught, during the cold war........

 

I am predicting that Russia will GIVE BACK sovereignty to Georgia (hah) when the extremists are taken off the lines, and taken out of GEORGIAN military.

 

Again, I think Russia is well within their rights to do this. It has been a long time coming.

 

theaters of dead people, and schools of dead children....hmm....MAYBE GEORGIA should PUT AN END to this crap themselves. I guess it bit them in the ass, huh?

 

america hated, bullshit. only by you.

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by the way, did anyone see the exchange and look on our president's face at the olympic opening ceremony, when (apparantly) Putin informed him of the invasion?

 

Man, has George had a rough presidency. I bet he cant wait to go fishing!

Yeah I saw that.

Kinda like the look he had on his face on 9/11 when they told him the news in that classroom...

 

yehp, except it was more like "ah fuck, now what, no way, oh man, really?"

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Only by you... Was that comment directed to me? Can't tell....I would hope not.

 

 

Anyway, for the record, I personally think that Russia has the right to do what they're doing. Its like if Iran attacked across the border our troops in Iraq... not only would be beat them back, but would go after the emplacements that did the launching or staging.

However, civilian bombing though is certainly not something I approve of.

 

I was pointing out the fact that this could grow into something much larger than just a border skirmish. Much much larger.

 

After all,

The Security Council had met late night Thursday and early Friday but failed to agree on a Russia-drafted statement that would call on Georgia and South Ossetian rebels to renounce the use of force.

 

Georgia, backed by the United States and some other council members, rejected the wording calling for the renunciation of force.

 

So yeah, the Russian guys are talking about a truce (get out of South Ossetia), but Georgia refuses to call for a renunciation of force -and we're backing that stance.

(I don't really support that stance... Georgia bit off more than they could chew in my opinion -big time. However, the disputed province is technically part of Georgia...just depends on who you ask is recognizing it. So they have a point too).

 

All things considered though, Russia is showing some serious restraint. Considering what they could do to that country if they wanted to, sending only a few thousand down that way is more or less "mild".

 

The Georgian President (US backed and not some loose unit) took a gamble and launched the offensive 1st to get the separatist South Ossetia back under govt. control. Well, Russia pushed back and drove more in to support "its citizens". We'd do no less if we had peace keepers have an offensive roll on them either.

Edited by whatmanual
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whatmanual - I agree -

 

BY THE WAY - our president looked to appear to think "oh no, now what" ...

 

 

Russia is our FRIEND now. We should trust their sovereign judgement, when they need to apply it!

 

Maybe Georgia shouldnt say they hate America so much, and fess up that they have some terrorists there too.

 

I personally, back the Russian Government 100%. I dont matter, but I will make my opinion known. Us "yanks" are assholes, arent we?

 

last I checked we have a world war going on......and Russia is on our side?

 

whats the arguement, exactly, guys?

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Ah, Georgia hatin' on us. Got it. I missed the Georgia guys calling us a-holes etc a while back then.

But I do know they wanted to be NATO (rejected for now)...guess they didnt want it bad enough.

 

 

George always looks that way. Even when they say they're out of Diet Coke.

Edited by whatmanual
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We should trust their sovereign judgement, when they need to apply it!

 

Haha, Trust Russian "Judgment"?

 

Like when they pumped chemicals into the school at Beslan where terrorists, and yes, innocent children were?

 

:lolol:

 

 

 

OKAY....

 

Georgia has been a US ally. We've been training their forces for years and years. There's a reason why their current camo pattern is MARPAT and that they now carry M16's. This will certainly not help relations with the US.

 

Russia is not the world power they once were and now they are trying to flex their muscles to pretend that they are. Reminds me of Italy invading Ethiopia in 1935.

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yup, EXACTLY like when they pumped chemicals into the theater and didnt tell doctors what it was and people died from overdoses of it, and also when they went into the school full of explosives and kids.

 

 

I guess you wouldnt shoot back when someone shelled your borderland.

 

I think everybody knows what to expect when you punch Russia in the face. I think everyone knows what to expect when China is punched in the face, as well. Same thing with USA.

 

Because some OTHER culture and political structure does things differently, doesnt mean they are right or wrong. It simply means that is how THEY do things. Everyone hates Americans because we all try to force how WE WOULD DO IT on them, when clearly, it is not our place to say most of the time.

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Zbigniew Brzezinski is saying there will be sanctions on Russia recently in an interview if they continue. He is the top adviser behind Obama and is probably the one behind the scenes pulling the strings with this Georgian conflict. Do we have any US based spare parts resellers for bolts/bolt carriers/op rods? I dont think Tromix makes those, but could they if we had Russia cut off from exporting?

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You assume too much, like most. What makes you think this is where I draw my opinion of russia and georgia from?

 

 

Makc isnt the only Russian I have known in my 36 years on this earth.

 

Heres a tidbit for ya - It just so happens, one of the guys I used to buy nesting dolls for my mother from in NY, was former spetsnaz, and I spoke about politics and Russian thinking at length with him many times, as well as the school siege that three of his close friends responded to, and were actually THERE doing the shooting. I was buying stuff from him the weekend that that happened, actually, and was there when he got the call from one of his buddys telling him what just happened, after they went in. His reaction after the call was pretty interesting. He liked my suggestion of Russia recognizing Georgia as a sovereign state, and then declaring war on it, and invading it.

 

In fact, most Russians I have met or spoken to over the years, I have enjoyed.

 

Georgia's bid at joining NATO was a desperate act to try to prevent the inevitable from happening. I guess the British and Aussies shouldnt have attacked Afghanistan after 9/11 when one of THEIR allies was attacked?

 

 

Everyone should really just agree to disagree, and get along. But unfortunately that is not human nature, or the way of the world.

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and back on subject, I have the impression that a current legal contract, cannot be stopped with sanctions. It WOULD prevent additional contractual agreements, and adjustments to any current contract that RAAC may have with the plant in Russia.

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Zbigniew Brzezinski is saying there will be sanctions on Russia recently in an interview if they continue. He is the top adviser behind Obama and is probably the one behind the scenes pulling the strings with this Georgian conflict. Do we have any US based spare parts resellers for bolts/bolt carriers/op rods? I dont think Tromix makes those, but could they if we had Russia cut off from exporting?

 

Nope... Cheney is the top suspect according to some Intel Analysis circulating out there. All of this is a neo-con agenda thing which Brzezinski detests. You had both Bush and Putin out of country at the same time for the opening ceremony of Olympics. Furthermore, Cheney said aggression against Georgia "must not go unanswered." ...to fan the flames (he lit) a little more.

 

 

 

Oh, and BVAMP, I currently know a few Russian prior military as well (Naval Infantry etc). Don't let the word "Spetsnaz" equate to something uber or commando -its really not. Perhaps in his case but just saying "not in all cases". Its just special purpose designation. Granted, they do get better training at what they do than standard forces....but its special to what they are assigned to do. That could be just being a well trained bodyguard for diplomats -which is not someone expert in recon work or demolitions. Just depends which group that person was with.

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