US made S-12 receivers

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

First let me say I mean no ill will towards you S-12inWV (although I must say your little "nut sucking" comment is offensive, was entirely uncalled for, and I would like to see it retracted!). You are entitled to your opinion like everyone else and I'm not trying to censor it. I don't agree with it though, so like you said, I have a right to say so. I think you are giving them too much credit.

 

You say that like you are ASKING me to go off. I won't give you the satisfaction. I've already said everything there is to say about WF and their piece of shit drum. It was poorly designed from the very beginning. It has too many parts, it's not reliable in a factory S-12 (the key point that all you WF koolaid drinkers fail to realize or admit), it should have been recalled when it was first discovered that it didn't work right, it should have been tested by people who know what they are doing with S-12s (like was promised but then not followed through on) BEFORE it was released, they have done nothing but play cover up games and slander the words and reputations of others since then (including Tromix, and probably at least partially because of you and the older Tromix gun you let them put their grubby hands all over), they sent shill after shill poster, trouble making trolls here one after the other, attacking Mike D and his far superior drum...dude the list of their offenses goes on and on....

 

And yes I do own both and I'm one of the few who is able to compare them. Tony Rumore and Mike D themselves are the ONLY two others who can say this, as far as I know, and they have BOTH agreed whole heartedly with all I've said about those [<edited so as not to look like I'm "sounding off"> ] and their mischief and lack of smarts, as well as the shittiest "customer service" known to exist!

It's not even about a comparison really...there IS no comparison.

 

Their drum is a waste of money plain and simple. If you have plenty and don't care about buying dedicated mags, THEN having to pay a bunch of [<edited so as not to look like I'm "sounding off"> ] too much money to perform work on your gun so it will even function...then SURE go ahead and buy all the WF drums you want or can afford.

 

 

As far as withholding information goes, and this being THE place for Saiga info good or bad...well...you should take that up with the owner of this site, not me. Makc does NOT want this type of thing on HIS website.

 

Ask him yourself! In fact I WILL for you. I was going to shitcan this thread just like the previous one, but decided to let the dogs have em for a bit first. Now that the WF koolaid gang is trying to turn it into just another "judgement thread"...well I don't think it's gonna last very long. We have had enough of those and it's publicity for those that don't deserve it here, good or bad...

[bobotech 3]

Just wondering because I don't know the laws, but a virgin receiver is used on AKs quite often to build pistol builds since "once a rifle, always a rifle" and to have a legal non-tax stamped AK pistol, you need to build on a virgin receiver.

 

Now with shotguns, is any of that relevant? Can you build a legal shotgun pistol on a virgin receiver? Or are the laws completely different for non-rifled barrels?

 

I'm just trying to figure out a reason for a virgin receiver other than for cut up police evidence guns that are released to the public for sale after having the receivers destroyed.

[KrisFox 69]

Just wondering because I don't know the laws, but a virgin receiver is used on AKs quite often to build pistol builds since "once a rifle, always a rifle" and to have a legal non-tax stamped AK pistol, you need to build on a virgin receiver.

 

Now with shotguns, is any of that relevant? Can you build a legal shotgun pistol on a virgin receiver? Or are the laws completely different for non-rifled barrels?

 

I'm just trying to figure out a reason for a virgin receiver other than for cut up police evidence guns that are released to the public for sale after having the receivers destroyed.

 

On the S-12 the trunnion is the serialized part.

 

This part WM is offering can't be used to build any firearm and still retain the original trunnion.

[bobotech 3]

Oh wow. Interesting.

 

So whats the point?

[Bayoupiper 738]

The point is to make money off the uninformed and the ignorant.

 

My problem with WM has always been their business practices and lack of ethics.

 

And this is just another example of that.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Will

[joelrod47 373]

Yes, the WM was ran thu my other TROMIX with no problems.. I only used the Win Super Sport (grey shell, high Velocity) though..... My newest has 4 gas ports and I think that made a diff.... And Jeaux, do you own or have you ever tested a WM Drum....? If not, I don't think your 2 cents count for much..... I see the popular guys on here slam someone and then their buddies that suck their nuts jump on the wagon with no first hand experience... Please don't comment unless you have ANY experience with their products or service. I know COBRA is WELL educated and has the right to judge, but unless you have first hand knowlege, I'd suggest you STFU. And I know Cobra will sound off (please do), being that he has TRUE experience, but for the guys just going off advice, don't coment until you've been there and done that. I HATE CHAIRBORNE WARRIORS!!!!

 

p.s. And Yes, I had FTEs and FTFs until I had the "reliability service"....

 

YESTERDAY:

"I have another S-12 TROMIX (runs like a swiss watch) that I haven't tried the drum in but I'm happy with my situation."

TODAY:

"Yes, the WM was ran thu my other TROMIX with no problems.. "

 

Hmmmmmmmmm.......... Can't have it both ways there, shill............

 

...........and no, I do not own a WretchedFucking Drum, nor have I ever tested one. However, I am in the acquaintance of a couple or three guys on this Forum who DO have the knowledge and expertise to make such a judgement about this POS. Their statements regarding this were not "advice", but hard specifics as to WHY the WF drum is fucked up, and what it would take to remedy the design that is faulty......... Instead of that, WF chose to charge their customers $$$ to modify the gun to the mag.........Worked for them, and apparently for you, but you'll have a helluva time selling that BS to anyone else around here.............Maybe its YOU who should STFU, huh ????

Now, who am I going to listen to??? People who actually know what they are talking about, or you, an obvious shill for the WF bunch ???? Lets see............................. Hmmmmmmmmm..............

As far as me S'ingTFU, YOU CAN SUCK MY NUTS, SHILL...............

Edited September 7, 2008 by Jeaux E

[WHITE 3 GOLF 2]

S-12 in West Vagina, just let it go, People here have been well informed of AA and choose to invest their money on people who do their homework on the products there selling, unlike the overpriced shit that if it doesn't work you don't get you money back. Instead you either have to cough up more coin for a reliable service or sit on something that aint worth a fuck. Like I've stated probably before I have a Saiga 12C and a Tromix S-17, and they both worck with 5, 8, and 10 round mags from cheap Winchester Universal to 3 inch Magnum rounds. It sounds like you got fucked and weren't given a reach around and your maybe a little pissed about it.

 

Jeaux E you like me invested in a creator of beauties that surpasses anything that I've ever dreamed of, and the customer service is like no other. I got your back brother. Tromix leads the way.

[BobAsh 582]

...don't coment until you've been there and done that. I HATE CHAIRBORNE WARRIORS!!!!

 

LOLWTF is that supposed to mean?

[GPalmer 1]

Ahhh, another happy WraithFaker thread... Somehow threads about them are so predictable, I just don't know why?!!

[Azrial 1,091]

.....As far as withholding information goes, and this being THE place for Saiga info good or bad...well...you should take that up with the owner of this site, not me. Makc does NOT want this type of thing on HIS website.

 

Ask him yourself! In fact I WILL for you. I was going to shitcan this thread just like the previous one, but decided to let the dogs have em for a bit first. Now that the WF koolaid gang is trying to turn it into just another "judgement thread"...well I don't think it's gonna last very long. We have had enough of those and it's publicity for those that don't deserve it here, good or bad...

 

Hey Cobra, I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not blaming you for doing your job, which is a tough one to make everyone happy, or Makc for running his site as he likes. Do what you must! For what it's worth, I support you, as do others.

 

Mine is just the opinion of a member, no more, no less. But sometimes when something is seen as suppressed, it is seen as more desirable.

 

I think that the availably of a US made receiver is more interesting in its potentiality, then in its current usability.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Well I think this particular one is a POS, just like everything else they try to rip people off with. Sorry, that's just my opinion. On a more important note though....I don't think it's right to help them advertise their bullshit right here on the forum they have attacked repeatedly and made themselves so unwelcome on....I don't care who thinks we are suppressing information.

[mordecai 1]

They really need a letter from ATF clarifying that piece is the "receiver" in the S-12. Remember guys, the ATF already stated that the S-12 does not have a Trunion. So what exactly is that piece with the S/N on it? That my friends, would be the receiver. It receives the barrel and the bolt. The ATF could rule many different ways on this issue, but I certainly would not assume the sheet metal piece is the receiver in this particular application.

 

Tony

 

Hmm... Does that mean if a new virgin barrel trunnion were manufactured, an AOW maker could re-use the entire assembly?

Anyone have a link to the ATF ruling, I read it ages ago but can't seem to locate it.

[Vultite 57]

 

Edited September 8, 2008 by Vultite

[Juggernaut 11,054]

other than a botched conversion, I have yet to see a Saiga parts kit.......

Kind of a moot point IMO.......

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Yes, the WM was ran thu my other TROMIX with no problems.. I only used the Win Super Sport (grey shell, high Velocity) though..... My newest has 4 gas ports and I think that made a diff.... And Jeaux, do you own or have you ever tested a WM Drum....? If not, I don't think your 2 cents count for much..... I see the popular guys on here slam someone and then their buddies that suck their nuts jump on the wagon with no first hand experience... Please don't comment unless you have ANY experience with their products or service. I know COBRA is WELL educated and has the right to judge, but unless you have first hand knowlege, I'd suggest you STFU. And I know Cobra will sound off (please do), being that he has TRUE experience, but for the guys just going off advice, don't coment until you've been there and done that. I HATE CHAIRBORNE WARRIORS!!!!

 

p.s. And Yes, I had FTEs and FTFs until I had the "reliability service"....

I know you feel these guys are getting beat up in here, but for good reason. As far as having first hand with these guys, you just don't get any more first hand than I. No one has bled more than me because of these guys, just being associated with them through a third party almost ruin my reputation. For every one person that says something good, 100 say nothing but bad. I can't believe what some people are willing to accept as a quality product now days. You got what you feel to be a good job, thats good, but you can not expect those of us, who have been burned, or otherwise fucked over by these guys, to turn the other cheek! Its the way people conduct themselves, that reflects who we are!

[Bayoupiper 738]

If a US made receiver blank or flat were such a great idea, don't you think one of the big Saiga converters, such as Tromix, Red Jacket, etc' would have done this long ago?

 

I seem to recall a thread where Tony discussed this exact type of thing long ago.

A US made S-12 thread I believe.

[KrisFox 69]

Ok umm...

 

It has the hole for the "sporter linkage" trigger but not the extra linkage pin holes.

 

It also has no PG nut hole.

 

LOL fucking great product!

 

Unusable with out drilling some type of new holes.

 

Now if it didn't have the hole for the linked trigger and did have a PG nut hole I MIGHT be interested if it was $50 or less.

 

O AND the SAFE and FIRE marking are on the wrong side and would be covered by the optic rail, the receiver is drilled for it.

 

Also is it just me or in the top pic is the front pin drilled to large?

 

It just gets better the more I look at it.

Guess who got a phone call from me today.

 

Apparently they plan to build complete 100% US made S-12 type shotguns.

 

They changed the design enough it looks like they will have 0 parts compatibility with Russian made Saiga 12's.

 

O and according to the guy on the phone "We have spent a fortune to get this ready." I also got the NEW GUN BAN line 2 or 3 times in the 3 min call.

 

Any one want to lay bets on to how fubar this thing will be?

[Bayoupiper 738]

I wonder how much the "reliability service" is gonna cost for it!

[nalioth 405]

I wonder how much the "reliability service" is gonna cost for it!

It'll be a subscription.

[HillBilly2 9]

Ok umm...

 

It has the hole for the "sporter linkage" trigger but not the extra linkage pin holes.

 

It also has no PG nut hole.

 

LOL fucking great product!

 

Unusable with out drilling some type of new holes.

 

Now if it didn't have the hole for the linked trigger and did have a PG nut hole I MIGHT be interested if it was $50 or less.

 

O AND the SAFE and FIRE marking are on the wrong side and would be covered by the optic rail, the receiver is drilled for it.

 

Also is it just me or in the top pic is the front pin drilled to large?

 

It just gets better the more I look at it.

Guess who got a phone call from me today.

 

Apparently they plan to build complete 100% US made S-12 type shotguns.

 

They changed the design enough it looks like they will have 0 parts compatibility with Russian made Saiga 12's.

 

O and according to the guy on the phone "We have spent a fortune to get this ready." I also got the NEW GUN BAN line 2 or 3 times in the 3 min call.

 

Any one want to lay bets on to how fubar this thing will be?

 

 

Now let me get this straight, They are selling a receiver for a Saiga 12 that has 0% compatibility with Saiga parts? I must have missed that on their web site, hmmmmm. Now they are going to produce complete guns? Then why sell receivers? And parts kits? When was the last time you saw a Winchester, Remington or Ruger parts kit? Geez, And its lettered on the wrong side?????????? WTF!!!

 

For my part Cobra, let the thread run, at least on this forum, if anyone is stupid enough to buy this crap they deserve to get ripped. Yeah, I know, you hate to see it, but some people just have to learn the hard way.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Cal:

[David and Cal Playing a video Game] You're *gay* now?

 

 

David:

No, I'm not gay I'm just celibate.

 

 

Cal:

I think? I mean, that sounds ga- I just want you to know this is like

the first conversation of like three conversations that leads to you

being gay. Like... there's this and then in a year it's like, "Oh you

know, I kinda wanna, ya know, get back out there but I think I like

guys" and then there's the big, "Oh I'm I'm a g-gay guy now".

 

David:

You're gay for saying that.

 

 

Cal:

I'm gay for saying that?

 

 

David:

You know how I know you're gay?

 

 

Cal:

How? How do you know I'm gay?

 

 

David:

Because you macramed yourself a pair of jean shorts.

 

 

Cal:

You know how I know *you're* gay? You just told me you're not sleeping with women any more.

 

 

David:

You know how I know that you're gay?

 

 

Cal:

How? Cuz you're gay? and you can tell who other gay people are.

 

 

David:

You know how I know you're gay?

 

 

Cal:

How?

 

 

David:

You bought a Wraithmaker.

[WHITE 3 GOLF 2]

Hey Juggs that's fucking hilarious. :lolol:

[sicktooth 8]

0% compatibility? WTF!? after this "new gun ban" takes place...you will only be able to buy "US MADE" firearms? who are these fuckers trying to kid? anybody with a god damned brain in their head will know not to be sucked into the shit we call AA...did someone say purple drink?

[Azrial 1,091]

.....They changed the design enough it looks like they will have 0 parts compatibility with Russian made Saiga 12's.....

Well my interest just went from low to no.

 

However that does explain why the AA drum has such low reliability, apparently it was never intended for the S12, but the AAK-12 instead.

[Bvamp 604]

LOL. bring it on, i say.

[BobAsh 582]

However that does explain why the AA drum has such low reliability, apparently it was never intended for the S12, but the AAK-12 instead.

I think you're on to something, there.

[KrisFox 69]

Ok umm...

 

It has the hole for the "sporter linkage" trigger but not the extra linkage pin holes.

 

It also has no PG nut hole.

 

LOL fucking great product!

 

Unusable with out drilling some type of new holes.

 

Now if it didn't have the hole for the linked trigger and did have a PG nut hole I MIGHT be interested if it was $50 or less.

 

O AND the SAFE and FIRE marking are on the wrong side and would be covered by the optic rail, the receiver is drilled for it.

 

Also is it just me or in the top pic is the front pin drilled to large?

 

It just gets better the more I look at it.

Guess who got a phone call from me today.

 

Apparently they plan to build complete 100% US made S-12 type shotguns.

 

They changed the design enough it looks like they will have 0 parts compatibility with Russian made Saiga 12's.

 

O and according to the guy on the phone "We have spent a fortune to get this ready." I also got the NEW GUN BAN line 2 or 3 times in the 3 min call.

 

Any one want to lay bets on to how fubar this thing will be?

 

 

Now let me get this straight, They are selling a receiver for a Saiga 12 that has 0% compatibility with Saiga parts? I must have missed that on their web site, hmmmmm. Now they are going to produce complete guns? Then why sell receivers? And parts kits? When was the last time you saw a Winchester, Remington or Ruger parts kit? Geez, And its lettered on the wrong side?????????? WTF!!!

 

For my part Cobra, let the thread run, at least on this forum, if anyone is stupid enough to buy this crap they deserve to get ripped. Yeah, I know, you hate to see it, but some people just have to learn the hard way.

I was told.

 

"Buying the receiver now, is your assurance that you will still get your gun even once there is a new gun ban."

 

My take on this. "HURRY UP AN BUY!!!"

 

Apparently WM is very close to having a working prototype.

 

"We expect to be shooting it in a few weeks."

 

To mean I'm paying for a receiver to a gun that has never even been fired?

 

ETA: From my e-mail box.

 

"The Origin shotguns are actually a different firearm, it is not a Saiga 12 clone and does not accept

 

Saiga 12 parts other than the magazines.

 

Logan

Alliance Armament LLC

Ph# 812-897-4908

Fx# 812-897-4230

www.alliancearmament.com"

Edited September 9, 2008 by KrisFox

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Brilliant! release one part at a time and charge a reliability service for each and every part to work properly.

 

Kinda like a franklin mint chess set.....buy one piece a month.. with completion of the gun you get a free sling! (said really fast at the end of the ad: Shipping,Tax and reliability services may cost extra!!!)

[BobAsh 582]

I did a feasability study for a US-made shotgun with Tony about 2 years ago, which is why he doesn't make one.

 

Best of luck with this project, they're gonna need it.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

Given that the receiver flat has to be the most INEXPENSIVE part of these guns and also given that they're charging $150 for it, It's my belief that a fully US made S-12 would run $3000 from Wraithmaker at least. Or 3,180 for the reliability service.

 

And god knows they're gonna put that fugly "Accelerator" Gas system on there. Probably cover it with tacti-cool rails and dildos to jack up the price... Yes, I said dildos... Maybe vibrators.... I mean, why not? If you're gonna get fucked, it might as well tingle.