US made S-12 receivers

[Bayoupiper 738]

I was told.

 

"Buying the receiver now, is your assurance that you will still get your gun even once there is a new gun ban."

 

My take on this. "HURRY UP AN BUY!!!"

 

Apparently WM is very close to having a working prototype.

 

"We expect to be shooting it in a few weeks."

 

To mean I'm paying for a receiver to a gun that has never even been fired?

 

ETA: From my e-mail box.

 

"The Origin shotguns are actually a different firearm, it is not a Saiga 12 clone and does not accept

 

Saiga 12 parts other than the magazines.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, if you want to drink the Kool-aid we can't stop you...................

[BobAsh 582]

They are hoping to capitalize on the S-12 shortage, and on the pre-election gun buying surge.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Not a Saiga Clone! Thats a fucking joke! I can't see how anyone would the two together.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I've got it!!!!

 

 

They decided that their drum really is a PoS but instead of fixing the drum, they're going to build a gun to go with it. The gun will only be $2500 base with the patented Accelerator Gasshole system.

 

 

Also, Who the hell needs 30 gas settings? Mine cycles 2 3/4" and 3" magnums just fine with 2... although the 3 I have now is very nice.... but 30???? holy shit batman.

Edited September 9, 2008 by SaigaNoobie

[pistol fixer 0]

I have been watching this back and forth about WM. if you have been on this forum very long at all, you should understand what has transpired with there products and lack of customer service.

 

what i was waiting for was someone to hit S-12in WV with a question about his Tromix which he stated was not working properly.

DID YOU BUY IT FROM TROMIX? DID YOU GIVE TROMIX A CHANCE TO CORRECT THE STATED PROBLEM? or did you just send it to Junk Guns are Us and let them whack on it? If you like WM's products and services then by all means give them your buisness, but don't slam Tromix products without giving them the a shot at solving your preceived problem. Tony is a stand up guy and he will try his damnedist to make it right, if it was his fault.

[KrisFox 69]

I was told.

 

"Buying the receiver now, is your assurance that you will still get your gun even once there is a new gun ban."

 

My take on this. "HURRY UP AN BUY!!!"

 

Apparently WM is very close to having a working prototype.

 

"We expect to be shooting it in a few weeks."

 

To mean I'm paying for a receiver to a gun that has never even been fired?

 

ETA: From my e-mail box.

 

"The Origin shotguns are actually a different firearm, it is not a Saiga 12 clone and does not accept

 

Saiga 12 parts other than the magazines.

 

Well, if you want to drink the Kool-aid we can't stop you...................

 

Make no mistake.

 

I am not buying anything from WM.

 

I'm just providing info direct from the horses mouth.... Or is that, Jacks ass?

[k-101 0]

Judging from all the negative things Ive read about them, especially that thing about fixing your gun to work with the drum, instead of the other way around, The first thing that comes to my mind is that this is a scam. There going to sell these receivers to people who don't know any better and then just not make the gun or the parks kit. Or just keep delaying it until people just throw em' way. Id be really surprised if little bum-fuck-vill company (no offense to small town people, just couldnt think of anything else to call them) actually came up with the manufacturing capabilities to produce an entire firearm from scratch. If it was that easy dont you think there would be 100% us made AK's already?? This just reeks of BS, just my 2 cts.

[BobAsh 582]

I don't believe they are trying to scam anybody.

 

They are making these in anticipation of an import ban, IMO.

 

There is no way a machine shop can compete with the Izhmash factory, price-wise. It's a simple matter of economies of scale.

[WHITE 3 GOLF 2]

Why don't they go ahead and make a left handed model, not that I'm gonna invest in that company. Can they only make a 10 inch model with that patented accelerator gas system with 30 different settings? How many fucking settings do you really need, I mean I'm doing just great with 2.

[6500rpm 670]

All I can think to say is WTF and Why.....

 

I'd also like to see a head to head torture test between the WM gang, Tony's crew, and a stock S12 at a very public place like KnobCreek and put all the hype to bed. Is there any forum that's pro WM/Alliance........anywhere? If not, probably a good reason and it has nothing to do with this place.

[S-12inWV 1]

"I have been watching this back and forth about WM. if you have been on this forum very long at all, you should understand what has transpired with there products and lack of customer service.

 

what i was waiting for was someone to hit S-12in WV with a question about his Tromix which he stated was not working properly.

DID YOU BUY IT FROM TROMIX? DID YOU GIVE TROMIX A CHANCE TO CORRECT THE STATED PROBLEM? or did you just send it to Junk Guns are Us and let them whack on it? If you like WM's products and services then by all means give them your buisness, but don't slam Tromix products without giving them the a shot at solving your preceived problem. Tony is a stand up guy and he will try his damnedist to make it right, if it was his fault."

 

 

PF, Don't even infer from my posts that I was dissatisfied with any TROMIX product, (I have the utmost respect for this man that has unparalled skills) I own three conversions by Tony and love them all. If you read the post, I did have an ocassional FTE or FTF...That was due to only three ports I felt, and this was from my first S-12 conversion from over 4 yrs ago, when Tony could turn them around in about a month and the S-12 only cost $229...otd!! Tony may not have been adding the forth port back then and it was a 22 or 24 in barrel. But it ran fine for my puposes and I felt no need to send it back for just a forth port....the problems were with low brass by the way. And I did have problems initially with the drum and sent my S-12 mainly to make my fuckin drum work 100% and the extra port... So don't even imply that I'm not a 100% hard core TROMIX fan. So please get your shit straight. The orginal point I was trying to make is that people who do not own the drum, touched or even seen one in person should not comment because they have NO FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE AND WAS JUDGING OFF OTHERS OPINIONS.... Hence me making the statement (chaiborne warriors) I expalined to Bob ealier....That was meant as an analogy to apply to someone that talks like they do indeed have first hand experience and actually don't, and being a Marine and Currently working as a Veterans Rep for my state, I meet many of these people that outright lie about shit till I call them on it!! (I have stories you wouldn't believe people have tried to pull) And for the record, I was disatiisfied with the Drum because of the problems and even spoke at lenght to MikeD about the problems I noticed....but still opted for the "reliability service" and That it was...no real problems since. And Even on my other S-12 (IZ-109) that has four ports the drum runs fine...hit and miss I guess with different S-12s. Now let me ask you....DO YOU OWN, HAVE YOU TOUCHED, SEEN OR even FIRED the drum.... I didn't think so.

[Bayoupiper 738]

No I do not OWN, have never TOUCHED, SEEN, or even FIRED one of their drums.

However there are several people on these very forums that have and I have complete trust in their opinions when it comes to Saiga weaponry.

 

As I have said time and time again, my problem with AA is their business practices and what I see as a lack of ethics.

Blatantly illustrated on these forums when their drum first came out.

[Eric Pate 478]

As I have said time and time again, my problem with AA is their business practices and what I see as a lack of ethics.

Blatantly illustrated on these forums when their drum first came out.

 

A big +1

[mechsterbator 0]

If it was that easy dont you think there would be 100% us made AK's already??

 

Arsenal - based out of las vegas if I recall correctly? American made clones of the Bulgarian AK

 

All I can think to say is WTF and Why.....

 

I'd also like to see a head to head torture test between the WM gang, Tony's crew, and a stock S12 at a very public place like KnobCreek and put all the hype to bed. Is there any forum that's pro WM/Alliance........anywhere? If not, probably a good reason and it has nothing to do with this place.

 

Two opposing entities meeting each other, with a 12 gauge machine of death and destruction in the middle of them? I'd feel sorry for who doesn't pick it up first.

[nalioth 405]

If it was that easy dont you think there would be 100% us made AK's already??

 

Arsenal - based out of las vegas if I recall correctly? American made clones of the Bulgarian AK

Nope. They're using legalese to sell their "US made rifles". There are only 6 US parts in each one, but the law says that is enough to legally consider them "US made".

 

The majority of each Arsenal rifle is made in Bulgaria.

 

 

Same deal with our Saigas. We can open the box on a chokeless Saiga 12, slap a 10 round US made mag in it, and -WHAM- legally, so long as that US made magazine is in it, it's considered to be "US made".

 

We can then put the factory magazine back in it and it's back to being a 'Russian sporting shotgun".

Edited September 10, 2008 by nalioth

[MCASgt New River 10,036]

Well, I feel that I'm entitled to give my opinion as I have in fact had the piss poor expirience of owning a over priced door stop, aka brick-o-shit, aka POS, aka sorry excuse for a weapon accessory, aka a total rip-off, .....yeah I could go on but those on here that have had the pleasure of reading the thread I started WAY BACK WHEN I originally purchased said drum know I'm no fan of theirs.

 

So, yes there have been a few members here that have be in possessions of a WM drum...myself, Cobra, Madmilo and a handful of others...I got a bad taste in my mouth because of them but you know what? Thats what this forum is about, shooters giving shooters solid info, hard based opinions, discussing problems and warning/helping others make a educated choice before emptying their pockets into a company that doesn't a squirt of piss how their product works in the intended weapon they designed it for.

 

And another thing....YES, I do have a MD drum, YES, it looks better, YES it functions a HELL of a lot better, MD fielded many questions from me and I him, Mike D is a man of his word, Mike D has my positive opinion, Mike D has my business.......WM has nothing but a cluster fuck of design and business pratice.....FUCK WM.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

No I do not OWN, have never TOUCHED, SEEN, or even FIRED one of their drums.

However there are several people on these very forums that have and I have complete trust in their opinions when it comes to Saiga weaponry.

 

As I have said time and time again, my problem with AA is their business practices and what I see as a lack of ethics.

Blatantly illustrated on these forums when their drum first came out.

I totally agree with the whole ethics thing. But all things being said, its all about product period! You could have the worlds best customer service, the best ethics, but if your product is shit, then all your selling is shitty product. The only reason any of us are talking about these guys, is because they offered their product when people had no other option. As far as S-12inWV coming in here and saying, do you own one?, do you have one? Let me tell friend these people in this forum are not stupid, or blind, they can smell a rat a mile away, and if you talk bullshit, they will call you on it! This whole drum issue has been bet to death around here, most these guys know about as much as the manufactures, because they follow it that close. Outside of the reliability issue, here one for you since you decided to come in here and rattle everyones cage posting support for these assholes. Take your greatly made WM drum and run with it stuck to your side, and watch your shells come flying out, all on their own, like magic, but its not really magic, its that great design work your so pumped up about. See if you look at your $500.00 drum, you'll see there is something missing, like side walls on the feed tower that support the shell and keep it in place for times like, when you running. I had a customer tell me that he bought two drums, had the reliability service done, thats a lot of $$$$$$$. He a competition shooter. As he was running around on the firing range, shooting his targets, little did he know, the shells where popping out of his other drum onto the ground, when he realized what had happened, he was, both mad as hell, and totally embarrassed. He told me he went up and threw both drums on a table and asked if anyone wanted to buy them, there where no takers. This is the bottom line, these guys did not take the time to do the job right, the feed tower is designed wrong! I say it, Tony said it, Mike D said it, Ben said it, Cobra said it, Bob Ash said it, Jugg Said it, and the list just goes on and on. If you make the world best thingy, and it works the best a thingy could work, then after I buy it from you, you'll never here from me again except to say thanks, or buy something else because you make great thingies. No ones picking on poor little WM, people want good product, not excuses.

[pistol fixer 0]

S-12 in WV;

 

I took the following;

 

" I sent them was an old school TROMIX conversion that only had three gas ports and was not corrected... They corrected, did the extra port, and did some polishng and smoothing...no grinding, and I've been 100% "

 

to imply that you had problems with this Tromix and Tony did not fix it, so you had to pay WM to solve it for you.

 

if that is not what you ment to convay than i stand corrected on that point.

 

Next you stated " I HATE CHAIRBORNE WARRIORS!!!!" Now you don't know me and unless you are an OLD FART like me, I have seen and done things you can't even dream about. As a prior military sniper i was killing Communist before you may have been born.

 

Since 1974 i have been in Law Enforcement (firearms instructor and armorer), providing firearms training to everyone from new recruits to Swat Teams and other Special Units.

 

I purchased one of the first WM drums to hit the market.

 

I tried it in three different S-12's and it would not feed in any of them. I got feed up and sold it to a fellow gunsmith for $100 and we modified his S-12 to work with it, which he just uses for fun.

 

In two different post you told two diametericly oposed stories.

 

" Sep 7 2008, 12:23 AM

I have another S-12 TROMIX (runs like a swiss watch) that I haven't tried the drum in but I'm happy with my situation."

 

"Sep 7 2008, 01:45 AM

Yes, the WM was ran thu my other TROMIX with no problems.. I only used the Win Super Sport (grey shell, high Velocity) though..... My newest has 4 gas ports and I think that made a diff...."

 

These two post are 1hour 22 min apart. Do you have a range at home or did you just open the door and fire 20 rounds into the neighbor hood,

Or will you just say anything to get people to agree with your post?

 

I have only had one other person PM me about something i posted and from your choice of words and writting style , it would not supprise me to learn that you and He are the same person.

 

Again, If you want to give WM your Money than go for it. Just don' t tell different stories to try to get others to agree with you. When you tell other list members to "STFU" it just reinforces my belief that you are FOS.

[BobAsh 582]

lol he PM'd me too.

 

However, my opinion hasn't changed: It's a flawed design. Period.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Since 1974 i have been in Law Enforcement (firearms instructor and armorer), providing firearms training to everyone from new recruits to Swat Teams and other Special Units.

 

I purchased one of the first WM drums to hit the market.

 

I tried it in three different S-12's and it would not feed in any of them. I got feed up and sold it to a fellow gunsmith for $100 and we modified his S-12 to work with it, which he just uses for fun.

Sorry to remove the rest of your quote, but just wanted to point out your lost. I have heard this kind of story over and over again, and yet you still have someone come in here defend these guys. Maybe someone should start a "How Wraithmaker ripped me off" thread, I'm sure it would not take long before it was 5 or 6 pages deep!

[SaigaNoobie 66]

I don't have WM drum, but I think I want to puchase one for $400, then give them my $1200 shotgun and let them poke holes in it. In fact, I bet for another $500 I could get the ACCELERATOR Patented Gas system installed....

 

1200+ 180 reliability + 500 + 400 drum.... No wonder they're asking $3500 for their full setup! It's almost a bargain!

[BobAsh 582]

BTW, LMAO @

 

It'll be a subscription.

[mechsterbator 0]

If it was that easy dont you think there would be 100% us made AK's already??

 

Arsenal - based out of las vegas if I recall correctly? American made clones of the Bulgarian AK

Nope. They're using legalese to sell their "US made rifles". There are only 6 US parts in each one, but the law says that is enough to legally consider them "US made".

 

The majority of each Arsenal rifle is made in Bulgaria.

 

 

Same deal with our Saigas. We can open the box on a chokeless Saiga 12, slap a 10 round US made mag in it, and -WHAM- legally, so long as that US made magazine is in it, it's considered to be "US made".

 

We can then put the factory magazine back in it and it's back to being a 'Russian sporting shotgun".

 

 

Ahh, I see. Thanks for the heads up on that.

[S-12inWV 1]

Pistol Fixer,

 

"Next you stated " I HATE CHAIRBORNE WARRIORS!!!!" Now you don't know me and unless you are an OLD FART like me, I have seen and done things you can't even dream about. As a prior military sniper i was killing Communist before you may have been born."

 

Response

You don't know me either, so maybe I've done things you can only dream about too... I just don't feel the need to elaborate on here and choose not to discuss some things I've done, places I've been, things I've seen, shots fired (by me and at me), other services I've trained with or what ever have you... I think you may be as impressed as I am of yours. And I respect your service.

 

Now:

"In two different post you told two diametericly oposed stories."

 

" Sep 7 2008, 12:23 AM

I have another S-12 TROMIX (runs like a swiss watch) that I haven't tried the drum in but I'm happy with my situation."

 

"Sep 7 2008, 01:45 AM

Yes, the WM was ran thu my other TROMIX with no problems.. I only used the Win Super Sport (grey shell, high Velocity) though..... My newest has 4 gas ports and I think that made a diff...."

 

Response

That was miss on my part for I don't know how to edit shit. I just haven't tried the drum but three or 4 times in my newest (with the brand stated above) It should have read I haven't tried the drum much in it...etc. Jeuax also pointed that out!! I primarily use it on my older one that has a screwed up paint job (my bad after sum Jim Beam), knicked and abused from being my brush/ATV gun but still fires like hell..primarily used for fun!! My newer one Is being kept clean as hell an Is treated as a "safe queen".....

 

Also, Please don't question my integrity. I have never PM'd you before and never even took note of your name since we've never interacted since this thread. So you're other buddy is still out there. And obviosly you didn't fall into the category of people I was asking to STFU. You do have first hand knowledge, so you should of taken no offense. And I stand corrected since you say that you DID own one. And By no means Am I trying to get anyone to agree with my post...I don't give a shit. As I stated before...the bashing should be done by people that have used/owned the drum not the others off somones opinion.

 

Oh, and Yes, I PMd Bob cause I truely thought he didn't know what "Chairborne Warrior" meant..... I thought I'd impart some knowledge but he already knew...He's a fellow Marine.

[BobAsh 582]

S12WV,

 

I'm not questioning your integrity here, but you are in the vast minority of guys that have had a good experience with Alliance, at least on this forum.

 

If you champion their product here, you will get a lot of negative responses. That's just the way it is.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Well I haven't served my country but I HAVE served this forum for several years. There was no war going on when I graduated HS and I had won a scholarship so I told the recruiters to leave me alone. So you might consider me one of those "82nd Chairborne" types if that's what gets you off, ragging on others who aren't military. Whatever. You don't have to be military to see what a POS that drum is, whether you let yourself be suckered into their "reliability service" along with it or not. I'm no Vet, in fact I'm no Veterinarian either, but I do know a horse's ass when I smell one ~ LOL!

Having spoken to Mike Sr a few times on the phone, being lied to, and listened to his pompous ass talk like he knows things others had know clue on, when in fact the things he thought he discovered, myself and others had been talking about for years. It was hard for me to keep a straight face while speaking to him.

 

I offered to help test his drum before it hit the market, and give my opinion on it's design and function, using several different S-12s. He promised he would send me one to test and report on here. That was probably one of the most costly lies he ever told...

 

I was contacted by Sgt Mike, above, when his WM drum wouldn't work right in his shotgun, and I offered to let him bring it over and try it in all of mine. I collect and modify S-12s and have a variety of them, some converted BY MYSELF, not Tromix, and some in stock form. It was an honor to meet Mike and a pleasure to shoot with him. As a Range Instructor for the Corps, he knows his shit. When his drum wouldn't work, he contacted them and was told he could not have his money back, but could instead pay for shipping and send them his gun to work on. What a crock of shit! AFTER he said that was not agreeable, and reminded them that he was a Marine and a Vet, they tried to act generous by offering their service at a slightly reduced rate, or to cover the shipping one way or something....hell I don't remember exactly what they offered but it was BULLSHIT as far as Mike and I both were concerned.

So Mike and I put his drum through the motions with all my shotguns, and his, on my range. It FAILED MISERABLY! It wouldn't even lock into half the guns we tried it in. The ones it did fit were hit or miss at best. FTFs, FTEs..pow...click, jam, curses....click....pow...jam....POS!

I went on the forum to let everyone know, in no uncertain terms, what crooks these guys were and what SHITTY product they were trying to rip people off with...not just "people", but my FRIENDS here on this forum.

I was attacked for being honest and for saying bad things about a business member here. Not PC or acceptable behavior for a member of the staff here especially. I weighed the consequences and decided my friends and my honor came FIRST! So I ended up getting banned from here for talking shit about WM and their BS. I was made to look like the fool by others here. I still stood my ground though and did all I could to get the word out on these clowns.

WEll LOOKIE WHO TURNED OUT BEING RIGHT AFTER ALL!

I was later reinstated as Mod here and to this day, every time I see a thread like this where someone is trying to glorify that overpriced doorstop, lipstick dispenser, boat anchor, homey gangsta necklace pendant...I will have my say in there and hopefully someone who hasn't heard all this shit before will learn something. I consider it my duty, and an honor as a faithful 82nd Chairborne Warrior...lol.

Those who have a WM can agree with me or not. I really don't care. They all miss the point if they don't understand the key issue that is the root of the problem with this drum (other than the piss poor design with open sides and no support in the tower).

IT DOES NOT WORK IN A FACTORY S-12! IT WILL NOT FUNCTION IN A GUN RIGHT OFF THE SHELF! I HAVE REPEATEDLY ASKED FOR PROOF FROM ANYONE OUT THERE IN WM KOOLAID LAND. STILL NOT ONE PERSON....NOT ONE....OUT OF ALL THEIR SO CALLED "HAPPY CUSTOMERS"....NOT ONE PERSON HAS SHOWN ANY PROOF THAT IT CAN BE LOCKED INTO A FACTORY, UNMODIFIED GUN, AND FIRE 20 SHOTS, UNINTERRUPTED BY JAMS!!

People can argue til they are blue in the face, about how happy they are with their WM drum in the gun they wasted all that money modifying for the drum. I DON'T CARE, NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE. If it won't work in a gun right out of the box, it's NOT a good product! WHY is that so hard for all the WM fans to understand???? If you need to justify your spending all that money to get a 12 ga with a 20 rd drum that functions, when you could have been more patient and spent a fraction of the cost for the same outcome with MD Arms, please do it somewhere else ok? People here are smarter than that and do not want to hear it, or drink the koolaid.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

Well I haven't served my country but I HAVE served this forum for several years. There was no war going on when I graduated HS and I had won a scholarship so I told the recruiters to leave me alone. So you might consider me one of those "82nd Chairborne" types if that's what gets you off, ragging on others who aren't military. Whatever. You don't have to be military to see what a POS that drum is, whether you let yourself be suckered into their "reliability service" along with it or not. I'm no Vet, in fact I'm no Veterinarian either, but I do know a horse's ass when I smell one ~ LOL!

Having spoken to Mike Sr a few times on the phone, being lied to, and listened to his pompous ass talk like he knows things others had know clue on, when in fact the things he thought he discovered, myself and others had been talking about for years. It was hard for me to keep a straight face while speaking to him.

 

I offered to help test his drum before it hit the market, and give my opinion on it's design and function, using several different S-12s. He promised he would send me one to test and report on here. That was probably one of the most costly lies he ever told...

 

I was contacted by Sgt Mike, above, when his WM drum wouldn't work right in his shotgun, and I offered to let him bring it over and try it in all of mine. I collect and modify S-12s and have a variety of them, some converted BY MYSELF, not Tromix, and some in stock form. It was an honor to meet Mike and a pleasure to shoot with him. As a Range Instructor for the Corps, he knows his shit. When his drum wouldn't work, he contacted them and was told he could not have his money back, but could instead pay for shipping and send them his gun to work on. What a crock of shit! AFTER he said that was not agreeable, and reminded them that he was a Marine and a Vet, they tried to act generous by offering their service at a slightly reduced rate, or to cover the shipping one way or something....hell I don't remember exactly what they offered but it was BULLSHIT as far as Mike and I both were concerned.

So Mike and I put his drum through the motions with all my shotguns, and his, on my range. It FAILED MISERABLY! It wouldn't even lock into half the guns we tried it in. The ones it did fit were hit or miss at best. FTFs, FTEs..pow...click, jam, curses....click....pow...jam....POS!

I went on the forum to let everyone know, in no uncertain terms, what crooks these guys were and what SHITTY product they were trying to rip people off with...not just "people", but my FRIENDS here on this forum.

I was attacked for being honest and for saying bad things about a business member here. Not PC or acceptable behavior for a member of the staff here especially. I weighed the consequences and decided my friends and my honor came FIRST! So I ended up getting banned from here for talking shit about WM and their BS. I was made to look like the fool by others here. I still stood my ground though and did all I could to get the word out on these clowns.

WEll LOOKIE WHO TURNED OUT BEING RIGHT AFTER ALL!

I was later reinstated as Mod here and to this day, every time I see a thread like this where someone is trying to glorify that overpriced doorstop, lipstick dispenser, boat anchor, homey gangsta necklace pendant...I will have my say in there and hopefully someone who hasn't heard all this shit before will learn something. I consider it my duty, and an honor as a faithful 82nd Chairborn Warrior...lol.

Those who have a WM can agree with me or not. I really don't care. They all miss the point if they don't understand the key issue that is the root of the problem with this drum (other than the piss poor design with open sides and no support in the tower).

IT DOES NOT WORK IN A FACTORY S-12! IT WILL NOT FUNCTION IN A GUN RIGHT OFF THE SHELF! I HAVE REPEATEDLY ASKED FOR PROOF FROM ANYONE OUT THERE IN WM KOOLAID LAND. STILL NOT ONE PERSON....NOT ONE....OUT OF ALL THEIR SO CALLED "HAPPY CUSTOMERS"....NOT ONE PERSON HAS SHOWN ANY PROOF THAT IT CAN BE LOCKED INTO A FACTORY, UNMODIFIED GUN, AND FIRE 20 SHOTS, UNINTERRUPTED BY JAMS!!

People can argue til they are blue in the face, about how happy they are with their WM drum in the gun they wasted all that money modifying for the drum. I DON'T CARE, NOR SHOULD ANYONE ELSE. If it won't work in a gun right out of the box, it's NOT a good product! WHY is that so hard for all the WM fans to understand???? If you need to justify your spending all that money to get a 12 ga with a 20 rd drum that functions, when you could have been more patient and spent a fraction of the cost for the same outcome with MD Arms, please do it somewhere else ok? People here are smarter than that and do not want to hear it, or drink the koolaid.

 

These WM fans and MDArms haters are gonna give Cobra carpal tunnel! How many times does this have to come up?

 

It sounds like the Chewbacca defense...

 

WM comes out with a drum that the Saiga 12 needs to be designed around. That does not make sense! An accessory to the Saiga 12 costs as much as a Saiga 12 and needs an additional couple hundred dollars worth of work done to the Saiga 12. That does not make sense! Chewbacca is a Wookie that lives on Endor. That does not make sense!

[USP40 1]

Cobra ,

How many jumps you have to do to be qaulified as Chairborn?

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

LOL @ Chewy defense...that's an old one!

 

USP40 I've only got one so far but it was AWESOME!! Jumped out of a Kingair at 13,000 with my brother, my Cousin Bob (on his very last jump), and two of Bob's brothers.

It was a very special occasion. Since today would have been Bob's birthday I'm going to start a new thread in his honor and tell my skydiving story there. I sure as hell don't want it in a thread like this....

[USP40 1]

Happy Birthday Bob ,

That was awesome Cobra. I never done free fall yet just static line jumps. Yes start a new thread please.