Long Term Saiga-12 Wear...

[SinistralRifleman 0]

I've been shooting the same Saiga in competition since March 2007. During that time I've put about 5,000+ rounds through it.

 

Back in June the recoil springs gave out and I was having failure to chamber issues....replaced them with Wolff 1911 B Springs and no problems since. Around the same time I noticed surfaces on the bolt and carrier starting to mushroom over...used a file and polishing wheel to clean it up.

 

At the Rocky Mountain 3 Gun match this past weekend, my bolt hold open gave out. The bolt carrier had worn a slot into the inner side of it so it eventually just slid past. While inspecting the inside of the gun, I noticed the hammer has a big notch worn out/mushroomed over from engaging the hook on the trigger.

 

Is anyone else at a high enough round count they have started to notice these problems? I wonder what the real service life on these guns is.

[SinistralRifleman 0]

As it turns out my rear trunion is slowly shifting back as well. The rivets are now angled, but it doesn't look like it's going to come loose or anything.

 

We have all the tools at work to replace it, what parts do I need to order to do it?

[SJgunguy 5]

That sucks. I would call RAA and work my way down. My only reservation for buying a S12 is the duty life. Just being a semi auto leads itself to abuse. Those thing take a beating thats for sure.

[GTwannabe 1]

Are you using a buffer?

[SinistralRifleman 0]

Are you using a buffer?

 

 

no, I had heard they cause their own problems...

[scoutjoe 276]

Bvamp has run about that many shells through his gun..... IIRC

 

I'd safely say I'm under the 5k mark, but nothing looks worn inside mine

[GTwannabe 1]

Are you using a buffer?

 

 

no, I had heard they cause their own problems...

 

I've been running a green Blackjack buffer in my S-12 since day 1. No issues whatsoever.

[scoutjoe 276]

 

my x39 hated its buffer...

[hartzpad 0]

I had a green Blackjack Buffer cause my Kreb's KTR-03S to malfunction in a rifle class last week. I also have a green buffer in my Saiga 12 and it is cracked through where it loops over the recoil spring. I'm going to remove it for my 3 Gun match tomorrow.

[Genocide 0]

Im around the 4000 mark now; my carrier and bolt have minor mushrooming and my rear trunnion has a bit of a dimple, everything else is fine & dandy. I might order a new spring, and change out the FCG sooner or later.

 

I got mine already converted in 2003 and the guy who did it welded up the old FCG holes with the old bars and retaining spring, so It'll take a bit more dremeling to get everything out. Not to mention the guy welded the PG nut to the bottom of the receiver instead of cutting the square.

[SinistralRifleman 0]

Well, next week I am going to have the rear trunion repositioned and and welded in....I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

[anatak23 0]

Well, next week I am going to have the rear trunion repositioned and and welded in....I'll let you guys know how it turns out.

 

 

Thanks for sharing SinistralRifleman.

 

I wouldn't have expected 4k to be a significant wear point!

 

I have been intending to buy a spare, I guess this settles it...

 

 

...like I really needed an actual reason to buy another.

[localfiend 0]

Can you take pics before it is repaired? I'm curious as to what the damage looks like.

[SJgunguy 5]

This one needs to be stickied. Maybe if there is enough of a demand RAA will import spare parts. Who knows somebody out there has a CNC machine with a few free hours.

[GPalmer 1]

Can you take pics before it is repaired? I'm curious as to what the damage looks like.

+1, please!

[greatmoose 4]

You know, this isn't exactly good news (assuming there's nothing abnormal about your gun). 5,000 rds is pretty dang short life for a "service" weapon. I mean, those junk chinese SAS-12 shottys are good for 3,000. I dunno, I really hope this isn't normal.

[SinistralRifleman 0]

I should be clear, the gun is not yet unserviceable. It still runs reliably. I am doing a pistol grip conversion to the gun now (with the Tromix do it yourself parts), and thought I might as well have the rear trunion fixed while I am at it.

 

I'll take pics before and after.

[Bvamp 604]

honestly, how religeous are you with the gas setting and shells you run or mix? are you firing any 2 3/4" slugs or 12 pellet 00 buck on gas setting 2?

 

 

I have at minimum, 8500 rounds down mine of all types and sizes, and only my hammer is mushrooming. its pretty shiny too my feed areas in all respects have worn more than the rear trunion has worn, which is only a circular mark where the bolt rides back in the carrier upon cycling of the action.

 

I will note, that among other things, I have fired this gun until smoking the oil off of it numerous times. Also, I did not clean it a single time or field strip it INTENTIONALLY to see what happened. Ask Cobra about that. it finally jammed at 3500 round mark.

 

One thing I have done religeously, if nothing else, including even wiping snow and ice off of the gun, was keep the gas setting correct, for the shells.

 

 

now, if you are in a comp circuit, and mix loads and leave it on setting 2. well. yer gonna have problems. hand load heavier loads, is my advice, and leave it on settting one always.

 

 

I dunno, can you answer that and give us pics, sinstralrifleman?

 

 

thanks.

 

 

very much interested in pics of your insides of your gun's actions, with your stories.

[SinistralRifleman 0]

95% of what I shoot is Winchester AA Super Sporting Clays 7-1/2 shot that will not run 100% reliable on setting 1 for me. The rest is a mix of buck and slugs. It is not realistic to switch from setting 2 to setting 1 in the middle of a course on the clock.

[hartzpad 0]

I just cleaned my Saiga 12 gas system for the first time today (cleaned the action many times), (had it since 2003) and I have around 3000 rounds through it. It has stovepiped four times in the last 1000 rounds but otherwise has been perfect. Gas system was pretty gummed up. My hammer is very shiny but not mushroomed and nothing else looks worn on the rifle.

 

I have run a Blackjack buffer in mine since the beginning and mine has always been on setting 1 as it will run even cheap Winchester and Federal 100 packs on setting #1. I will be shooting a 3 Gun match with it tomorrow morning.

 

I wonder if it runs every ammo on setting #1 because it is a year 2000 model and possibly the gas ports are different than newer models?

[pedal2alloy 206]

The peening and mushrooming should be expected, but the question is when will it affect functioning. The early failure of the spring shows that they probably use the cheapest kind of spring material or manufacturing process, but at least that's an easy fix and maybe even a good idea for an upgrade in general. I'm sure that the American made 1911 spring is 10 times better than the stock spring.

 

The interesting thing to me is the bolt carrier carving a slot in the bolt stop like you mentioned. That sounds like it's rubbing against the bolt even in it's non-activated position. If so, it could use more clearance or if not, maybe it could be heat treated to improve the hardness. Or maybe it's a good argument for upgrading to Cobra's 'last round bolt hold open.'

 

As far as the rear trunnion shifting back, that shows how resilient the rivets are. The riveted connection can tolerate shock better than a weld, so even though they are angled, the gun is still useable. I would bet that a weld would have cracked resulting in an unusable gun much sooner.

[Bvamp 604]

95% of what I shoot is Winchester AA Super Sporting Clays 7-1/2 shot that will not run 100% reliable on setting 1 for me. The rest is a mix of buck and slugs. It is not realistic to switch from setting 2 to setting 1 in the middle of a course on the clock.

 

so you run heavy dram/shot/payload shells right on gas setting 2?

 

 

why not, in competition, shoot heavy duck loads, and just leave it on gas setting one the entire time? It might beat the parts less in the end, no?

 

 

maybe im misunderstanding you.

[SinistralRifleman 0]

so you run heavy dram/shot/payload shells right on gas setting 2?

 

why not, in competition, shoot heavy duck loads, and just leave it on gas setting one the entire time? It might beat the parts less in the end, no?

 

maybe im misunderstanding you.

 

 

Winchester AA Super Sporting Clays are or Super Handicap are 3 Dram, they will not run 100% reliably for me on setting 1. Over the 5,000-6,000 total shells fired through this gun, about 300 have been slugs or buckshot on setting 2. The recoil does not feel excessive on setting 2, that the gun should be getting beat up for that relatively low number of rounds.

 

I've posted this same question on a couple different forums, and one user is reporting some of these things happening to his gun at 2,000 rounds with mostly buckshot and slugs only on setting 1.

[G O B 3,516]

DO NOT WELD the rear trunnion! Use rivets. Rivets are easy to replace, and are deliberatly used for that reason. They also provide a little "cushion for the pushin' ".

[fasdfs 5]

My Tromix runs everything, including low-base Federal 100-pack birdshot, on setting 1. I've shot it about 1000 rounds through it and I've never cleaned it and, aside from being dirty, it's in excellent shape. Yesterday, three other guys and I took turns blasting away with some birdshot as fast as we could dump the mag and ended up burning 155 rounds in about 8 minutes. The barrel and gas tube were extremely hot, but there were zero malfunctions (except for my sub-par VFG slipping and squishing my index finger into the flashlight).

[Bvamp 604]

Back in the beginnings of this forum, when I had first gotten my second s12 (I bought and sold the first one after having winchokes installed inside of a month, and bought the one I currently own), I saw that there really hadnt been any real abuse tests done to the weapon.

 

So, I didnt clean it for about 3000 rounds, until it jammed.

 

I have done many abusive tests to the gun since I have owned it, including freezing it, taking it out for the entire day in the pouring rain and blizzards, drop tests for accidental discharges, etc etc etc. I even left the gun outside and loaded overnight while it snowed, and took it out the next morning and dropped two whitetail in 3 shots with it from a blind during a "push" hunt with my indian friends, WITHOUT doing anything to the gun but unsafing it and pulling the trigger. I have half a mind to return home to NY with a dealer 4 pack and sell them to the guys that I made believers out of.

 

...all of that said and done, the only thing I really did that I was supposed to do was set the gas setting properly. I did fire a couple of 3" shells on setting 2 on accident, which was noticeable, in that the spent hulls went flying about twice as far as they normally due I.E. - the bolt came back with GUSTO.

 

Apart from this single incident, everything I did to this gun was intentional, and deliberate. If this gun wasnt as good as it is, sadly, most all of you would not know BVamp (too bad right?), and I wouldnt be in the gun business today, selling this brand of firearms.

 

I have a small mark on the rear trunion from that accident, from the bolt whacking the rear trunion. Over time, however, that aside, the only thing I have noticed that has happened was I have gotten some additional slop to the bolt carrier OP rod. Ill probably bring it up to OH when I go help Tom out in the near future, and stick the thing on his 20 ton press, and tighten it back up.

 

I notice a little wear on the piston in the bolt carrier spring, but the springs still look to be the same as they ever were.

 

There is some malforming of the feed contact points, around the breech of the barrel, from so many shells going through it, although it does not hamper feeding at this point.

 

I have swapped the old puck and gas plug out for a CHAOS made puck and quick cleanout plug, which upon recieving, was a very good fit in the gas block. I did notice a difference in puck dimension, with my old one surely being worn quite heavily.

 

The bore is still pristine, even after the many different shell types I have fed it, including flechette loads, magnesium loads, and even the crappiest rottenest shells I have ever fired from any firearm. I have even fired a shoulder breaking load I used to make with a 3" shell full of copperhead BBs down it. I originally made this load for a 3 1/2" chamber, and DO NOT recommend duplicating it.

 

The rails are still pristine.

 

The hammer has mushroomed quite a bit.

 

I notice ZERO rear trunion shift, that is in any way apparant.

 

The bolt's rear face shows almost no wear or distortion, so far as I can tell.

 

I used a blackjack buffer for about 1000 rounds, and removed it due to some light loads stovepiping. I still have a blackjack in my rifle, however, and do believe it does its job well.

 

My gun is 2001 manufacture, with the BHO, and factory cut 18.5" barrel, receiver marked as full choke, barrel ACTUALLY being non-threaded improved cylinder. I am guessing its around the 10k rounds mark. Ive lost count.

 

I would imagine, adding a modified or full choke to the gun, and keeping it on setting 1 might help aleviate some of the heavy bolt blows, in a few of the above cases, as well as enable stout trap loads to function reliably.

[uzitiger 193]

DO NOT WELD the rear trunnion! Use rivets. Rivets are easy to replace, and are deliberatly used for that reason. They also provide a little "cushion for the pushin' ".

 

Welding will affect the heat treatment of the steel trunnion and may cause other problems. Rivets are good fasteners, they are used on aircraft, trains and trucks to keep things together. Airplanes are riveted so parts can be removed and replaced after they fatigue or crack.

 

I tried a buffer in my Saiga and it didn't do anything because the bolt carrier did not go back far enough. This is an AK not an Uzi or PPSH-41 where a buffer is designed into the weapon. My buffer was a waste of $10 which could have been used to buy ammo.

[SinistralRifleman 0]

Per the forum advice, I am ordering some rivet kits and we are going to re-rivet it.

[cscharlie 107]

Per the forum advice, I am ordering some rivet kits and we are going to re-rivet it.

 

Did ya ever git r done?