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Unhappy with delays at E-Tac.


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First off before any one jumps on my case .............. I beleive that E-tac produce some of the best conversions , however my view is his customer service is lacking.

My order was placed on 7th April for two full conversions paid in full, quoted delivery time was 5-6 weeks. Now maybe i should have known better but its now 22 weeks later.I have a number of one line emails from him stating "completion next week " spread over the whole period. Now this may seem ok to those of you who are used to waiting extended times but i bought these guns on the understanding that they would be ready for my European tournament season that started on the 14th August.Also im over in the Uk so i have tried calling both his numbers without much luck.

Im sorry to air this in public but its due to this excellent forum that i placed the order.Correspondance with other customers is giving the same story.Who else is awaiting orders ??

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I, too, believe that E-TAC does fine work. The S-12 Esteban did for me is posted on this forum and it is outstanding. However, the production delays are troublesome. I have always enjoyed speaking with Esteban, but I would like to get my items faster. I know he has been swamped with work, but at some point the customer just gets frustrated. I am still waiting on a rifle that was ordered back in mid-February. In Esteban's defense, it should ship any day. Still, it is months over due.

 

E-TAC has taken steps to try to make the customers less concerned about the delays and I, for one, do appreciate that. However, like Gunfighteruk, many of us have been waiting months and months for our guns. I would like to get a monthly up-date of my order. While that may be unrealistic, from a paying customer's point of view, it would be nice.

 

This is not a slam on E-TAC's quality, but rather a statement of frustration.

 

 

WJ

Edited by WarriorJudge
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Two word solution.

 

"Ace Folder"

 

Or: Do it yourself.

 

And, from my experience, not with E Tac, but with almost the entire Saiga related community, EVERYTHING is promised in a time frame, that is NEVER realistic.

 

Magazines, drums, accessories, etc. Not to mention, the inevitable, first run "Issues", IE, surefire 410 mags for the Saiga in the last few weeks.

 

Too many "Businesses" are willing to take your money up front, for a pre order, or just to "Get in line", and perhaps that mentality of acceptance from the people ponying up the money should change.

 

IF the money is coming in only at completion, thats one big incentive to get the job done, if they are holding your money, well, exactly, they are HOLDING your money...

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Two word solution.

 

"Ace Folder"

 

Or: Do it yourself.

 

And, from my experience, not with E Tac, but with almost the entire Saiga related community, EVERYTHING is promised in a time frame, that is NEVER realistic.

 

Magazines, drums, accessories, etc. Not to mention, the inevitable, first run "Issues", IE, surefire 410 mags for the Saiga in the last few weeks.

 

Too many "Businesses" are willing to take your money up front, for a pre order, or just to "Get in line", and perhaps that mentality of acceptance from the people ponying up the money should change.

 

IF the money is coming in only at completion, thats one big incentive to get the job done, if they are holding your money, well, exactly, they are HOLDING your money...

 

Kinda beatin' your drum everywhere, ain't ya?

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Ya know guys....we DO have a feedback section for this type of thing. Please use it.

And it would be nice to keep the commentary to people who are actually DEALING with E- TAC or HAVE.

 

(moving thread to proper location now)

Edited by Cobra 76 two
moved
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IF the money is coming in only at completion, thats one big incentive to get the job done, if they are holding your money, well, exactly, they are HOLDING your money...

 

 

For some places, this may be true, but with E-Tac, Esteban is getting the guns out as fast as possible. There's always delays, often times caused by the customer changing his spec multiple times during the build. Then, it's a snowball effect; one gun gets delayed, that delays the next gun built, etc. Just look at Tony and why he no longer does custom orders.

 

Esteban used to accept orders with little or no money up front. His customers used to give him all kinds of reasons why they couldn't pay the full amount at the time the order was placed, and he'd let it slide. Fast forward to when their gun is ready to ship and he'd end up having to chase the people down for the balance of the order. A few customers will pay the balance right away, but way too many either don't have the balance and tell him to wait till "pay day" or dodge his calls and emails. There was a guy who wouldn't answer his emails or phone calls for over 6 months. The guy would return a phone message once every few weeks saying he's having email problems and that he'll call back "tomorrow" with his cc number, which he never did. Esteban used to spend a good portion of each day trying to chase down people who had unpaid balances on their finished guns. All that time spent trying to get these guys to settle up takes time out of the shop and causes further delays in production.

 

There's many other instances where customers placed orders and didn't pay up front. Then, like most people, they change their build spec. Parts have already been made or ordered, and work had already begun. All those parts that the customer no longer wants on his gun, he doesn't want to pay for, so the shop gets stuck with the part. So, except for certain situations, E-Tac only accepts orders paid in full.

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Well, this is what Tony does: He charges your card (or cashes your check) just before he starts working on your gun. They are always completed within 3-4 days, or depending on the batch size, even sooner.

 

If it doesn't go through, he contacts you. If it can't be resolved, your order is dropped. This is the result of many years of experience, and saves everyone a ton of grief.

 

Constant changes to the orders after they are placed are exactly why he no longer does customs. I don't remember what the record was, something like 47 emails for one gun? lol

 

EDIT TO ADD: I know that Esteban works very hard to get those guns made, and my post is in no way a criticism of him. Just sharing some experience.

Edited by BobAsh
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I think that E tac should have at least worked on one S12 for his customer. If E tac couldn't deliver both S12s, at least finish one, so the customer could have it in time for his/her season. I think that would have been a compromise that would have been more acceptable. I know I wouldn't want to hear excuses via email. I've heard only good things about E tacs work, but this isn't any way to win over more customers.

 

I know that when I sent my S12 to Tony. Everytime I called and was able to speak to Melissa or Tony. If I left a message, they would return my call within 24hours. To me that speaks volume for Tony's commitment to his customers. Not knocking any other gunsmith that works on the Saiga. I just know for me, Tony has spoiled me and I will be a lifetime customer.

 

As much as I like Tony, I'm not going to get his ink on my body. HAHA

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I placed an order with Esteban when I was still deployed. He had S-12s in stock, and though I know I paid more than other guys would have charged for a similar conversion, I think I got what I paid for. Esteban's work is top-notch. He was willing to start work on my S-12 with half my money down. He was willing to talk throug options with me, and I ended up with a badass gun. It was delayed a bit, yes, but I know how a custom build can be. Besides, with custom-milled parts, these things take time.

 

I understand the frustration of not having dealines met, but I also know Esteban has been expanding his business and dealing with a major surge in interest in his work. I ordered my gun well before he was a sponsor on this site, and I think you guys know what sponsorship/association with this site does for business. More often than not, it blows up. I would hate to see one of the truly top-notch Saiga makers out there get a black eye for what I think is a problem more often than not stemming from customers (for the aforementioned reasons).

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you can not rush art.....

 

I know I fall behind with my shirts... I just let people know a realistic turn around time...

MOST of the time people are willing to wait for quality.

 

Over the summer I was as far as 8-10 weeks out... now I'm at about 4 weeks.

People are pretty chill if you give them a realistic time frame....

 

we offer three things at my shop..

Quality, Low Prices and fast turn around.... pick any two.....

 

I know nothing of e-tac's schedule.. so I don't feel I can comment ... I do know the S12's out of that shop are fantastic.....

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I put an order in for my first S-12 on Feb 27 based on Esteban's reputation and the fact that I wanted the ceramic coat finish he offers. The delivery estimate was 6-8 weeks, and it is just now getting around to delivery time. Am I thrilled about the delay? Not really, but I don't believe I've been lied to. I believe he acted in good faith, but just got in over his head and fell behind. I also believe he has lost lots of production time in trying to keep people happy with changes and "shoe horning" people's orders in. The solution for those who are truly unhappy with production and delivery times is to cancel your order.

 

And as far as delay-causing changes go? I'm surprised he even considers it after the parts are ordered or the build has started. We are men buying guns, for crying out loud, not women trying on shoes...............(and yes, I know women buy guns too. I'm just an old MCP.)

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Interesting reading. Here are my bullet points:

 

1. First, as a former service member, I respect and honor Esteban's service to our country. That is a given.

 

1 .a. Does Esteban do kick ass work? Yes.

 

2. Have I been lied to? No. Have I been given delivery dates which come and go? Yes. Probably six or seven. That is shear frustration when you have pre-paid in full for something that costs thousands of dollars.

 

2. a. Does Esteban do kick ass work? yes.

 

3. How late are my guns? Well the .308 was, as said before, ordered in early to mid-February. I think the check was dated February 9th. At that time, delivery was supposed to take 4 to 6 weeks. We are now at about twenty eight weeks, making the .308 22 to 24 weeks late. The second two were ordered about eight or so weeks ago.

 

3. a. Does Esteban do kick ass work? Yes.

 

4. Are some of the posters correct in blaming customers for delays? I can only speak for myself in saying, No. I do not think I asked for any substantive, significant changes to any of the four guns I have ordered from E-TAC, three of which I am still waiting for. I did ask to change some mag releases from standard to extended and to add a vertical grip. I also asked for color changes before some were even ready for coating. I seriously doubt any of these "changes" caused production delays for me or for other customers.

 

4. a. Does Esteban do kick ass work? Yes.

 

5 . Am I a patient man? No, probably Hell no.

 

5. a. Does Esteban do kick ass work? Yes.

 

6. Do I like pre-paying in full? No, truly HELL no. Would I ever again pre-pay in full for a conversion? HELL no unless it became the industry standard. For reasons stated, I do think the conversion company has a right to get some money up front, say 50 to 65% but all of it up front is a huge leap of faith. I also think ANY change should carry a monetary penalty to discourage such actions. You want to change colors, ok, $50.00 for changing the purchase order. You want to add a vertical grip, ok, $50.00 for the paperwork to change the purchase order. Oh, plus parts, of course.

 

6.a. Does Esteban do kick ass work? Yes.

 

7. Would I order again from E-TAC? Truthfully, the answer is maybe. If the remaining three guns are delivered in the next three weeks and they high quality, as I suspect they will be, this answer likely swings from "maybe" to "likely". Also, see 6 above re: pre-payment. Any subsequent order would have to fit within that limitation.

 

7. a. Does Esteban do kick ass work? Yes.

 

8. Do I like Esteban? Yes.

 

8. a. Does Esteban do kick ass work? Yes.

 

9. Do I think Esteban values his customers? Yes

 

9. a. Does Esteban do kick ass work? Yes.

 

 

10. Do I think Esteban has worked to make me happy since the delays happened? YES. I think he has been very reasonable in trying to make up for the delays.

 

10. a Does Esteban do kick ass work? Well, by now you should know the answer to this question.

 

11. Enough of my ramblings and silliness. You get the idea. Everyone has posted valid points and ideas. I can only speak from my perspective. Bottom line is I think Esteban is a person I would like as a personal friend. I feel that way about several members of this board. Given that, I do trust him. Still friends get frustrated with friends. Over the long term those frustrations are overlooked. I believe that Esteban is correct when he says that with long term use and enjoyment of one of his conversions, the initial delay will be forgotten.

 

Now, final recommendation as of September 12, 2008. I believe that Esteban is a worthy person to do business with and to send money to. Just be prepared to wait. I was not psyched to wait 28 weeks when my first order was made. I was not prepared for such a delay. That was frustrating. If I had known up front that the guns might take , say 52 weeks, and I chose to go ahead and place the order, then I would have no grounds to either be disappointed or to gripe. But, that was not the case, for a myriad of reasons. So, I do feel "entitled" to complain a bit. If you don't want to read about some complaining, then this thread should have been ignored in the first place.

 

There, after all of that typing and knowing that my guns are days away, I feel better.

 

Esteban, stay safe and I mourn the loss of your Coast Guard patriots.

 

WJ

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Custom ordered weapons from 3 members here. All were delayed, :cryss: yet was kept informed and work was always superior. :super: A custom DSA was delayed, A Wilson delayed. Custom paint job on a 1951 M37 Dodge PowerWagon delayed. It's almost standard. Do i like it. No. Rather get what I want, than a mass produced. Do like the 2 Krebs I have, yet wish I could have gotten them customed. Believe this is why Krebs, and Arsenal only do production runs now that go through bulk suppliers. :smoke:

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The guy does great work probably my favorite converter. When I called to a SBS done he told me 6 months. He is trying to do all these himself because the guy is a perfectionist and realizes most of us only want the best when we lay out $1500 for parts and labor:) I think all of these guys should have a express rate. If you want your gun done in 4 weeks instead of 4months Charge a $500 express fee. I would pay it:) Anyhow at least when one of the supporting venders does do a job for you it's done right. I sent a rifle off to be restored and it took 8 months instead of 8 weeks. I paid $800 up front! Then had to call the guy everyday and he finally told me times were tough and he had no money to fix my gun! Then sent the gun back in pieces missing all sorts of stuff! THANK BUDS GUNSHOP! http://www.buddsgunsmith.com/ Run far as you can from this guy! Tell all your friends!

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It's touching to see people jump to his defence, BUT when you are told 5-6 weeks and it's going on 22 weeks...that's a huge difference in time. Why not compromise and work on at least one S12, so the customer can compete with his new S12? I don't think that is too unreasonable for the customer or for Etac.

 

Anyone who has ever had any custom work done should know that there could be delays. The point that is missed is that the customer has emails stating that the work would be finished. Empty promises only makes you look foolish to your customers. If you cannot deliver what you promised...tell your customers this up front and let them decide if they want to retain your services or go to another company.

 

As far as business being affected by other outside factors...that's the cost of doing business. No one wants to hear excuses, when it comes to not delivering goods in a timely manner. What if E tac would have finished both S12 and the customer said "the check is in the mail" and this went on for 22 weeks? I bet many members on this board would be bashing the customer. The justification for the delay is because Etac does good work? That is flawed logic. They both entered into a sales agreement in good faith. The customer delivered on his/her end...it's time for Etac to do the same.

Edited by aubie515
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I recall the same thing occuring on other forums where the people were awesome gun builders, but their business just went down hill fast. HD rifles was one and I cannot recall the name of the second company. I just know that the second company did custom AR15s. It sucks that a company can build such an incredible reputation and in the span of months...the company falls apart. I'm not saying that is what is happening with E tac. I am merely pointing out that I see the same pattern. Where past customers jump on the band wagon to support the builder, only to eat crow in the end.

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A custom gunsmith where I hang out is often at the mercy of parts suppliers re: timely builds. Laughingly common parts are often not available. He just machined the hook for a Krink folding stock since the supplier is out and none are expected for maybe a month.

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I think all of these guys should have a express rate. If you want your gun done in 4 weeks instead of 4months Charge a $500 express fee. I would pay it:)

 

 

You guys obviously don't know about Esteban's Beer Policy. He works twice as fast after receiving a case of beer! :greedy:

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Esteban,

 

As a satisfied customer who appreciates the options and attention to detail a full-custom builder like you offers, I beg you, please do not narrow your offerings. I understand why many builders go that route. Krebs, Tromix and other have gotten out of the custom game because of the hassles a handful of customers cause. At the end of the day, this really strengthens your position. With all due respect ot other builders, I think E-Tac's guns are the best on the market in terms of sheer quality. Now that Tromix is sticking to a handful of models, E-Tac is the only "high-end" builder left in the game.

 

Don't leave us high and dry.

 

SR

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The issue here is the same for any small business. Growing pains. If you do a good job, or better a great job, people will flock to you faster than you can keep up AND faster than you can project.

 

Does it suck to be the customer in this situation? Yes and no. You can either revel in the fact that the delays PROVE you are getting a quality item OR you can stew about the time it is taking to get your toy.

 

My suggestion is to have patients if you are the customer.

 

My suggestion is to seek BUSINESS TIPS for organization and product projections if you are a small business finding yourself bogging down orders.

 

Side note, TROMIX is a good example. I got on the list for getting my S20 done. That was LONG before I dropped off and then recieved my shotgun from him. Well, I actually haven't touched or fired it yet. It is awaiting my arrival home as is the S12 I purchased already converted.

 

Tony's primative list method and charging method WORKS. I knew it would be a long time. I didn't care. After hearing the good words on the work I was well prepared to wait for my turn.

 

Some people are not as good as the business aspect as they are with the actual work.

 

First I like to apologize for the inconveniences that were caused from our production delays. I am making major changes to fix these problems and expand the products and modifications for the Saiga line. Training and other major changes are happening now and will impact customer service. However it will never affect the quality of our conversions (all guns converted by E-TAC are built with the idea that they may be use in a life saving situation). When our new shop is fully functional this will be a thing of the past.

 

That quote tells me everything I need to know.

 

He had issues, he is working on them. Enough said.

 

Patients is a virtue... One that can determine life or death in some situations. If you practice patients in minor situations you are better prepared for the chance it could save your, or someone else's, life.

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  • 1 year later...

I too am very unhappy with E-Tac. Esteban was very nice over the phone, but everything business related has been crap. I've ordered a $2000+ shotgun that was in stock over a year ago!!! He promised around 6 months turn around time. Now all I get is more empty promises or usually just no response. I didn't start e-mailing him until about 6 months into the project. Then he said he should get them our by October. Of course that's after about 3 e-mails and a couple of phone calls that he finally got back to me. I can't say that he's been giving me excuses because HE RARELY RETURNS PHONE CALLS AND E-MAILS. I've already paid upfront. I've requested a refund and still no response. I'm very close to contacting the Better Business Bureau and my attorney. - Chase

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. . . I've already paid upfront. I've requested a refund and still no response. I'm very close to contacting the Better Business Bureau and my attorney. - Chase

Well. . . if you decide to pursue that route, it would be interesting to learn how that ultimately works out for you.

 

As for me personally, I'm in the small camp of folks that have essentially subsribed to the notion that, "it takes as long as it takes."

 

:rolleyes:

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. . . I've already paid upfront. I've requested a refund and still no response. I'm very close to contacting the Better Business Bureau and my attorney. - Chase

Well. . . if you decide to pursue that route, it would be interesting to learn how that ultimately works out for you.

 

As for me personally, I'm in the small camp of folks that have essentially subsribed to the notion that, "it takes as long as it takes."

 

:rolleyes:

 

That still does not excuse the broken promises (lies), lack of return e-mails and phone calls. I have my own business too. Zero communication means a poorly run business or a scam. I've been ripped off before; and they're more likely to get away with it the longer I wait. Frankly, if E-tac goes under, I bet most people would ask, why'd you wait for so long? C'mon!!! It does not take over a year to convert a gun! You don't promise 6 months then stop returning e-mails and phone calls! To be honest, I would have waited 1.5 years if they could just communicate. And maybe you're right, Gary. "It takes as long as it takes... to lose your money." $2065 is a lot of money to be tied up... And I paid for the interest. LOOK AT HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE COMPLAINED ABOUT E-TAC!!! I gave Esteban and Craig every chance I could. I have been forgiving and patient. But more than anything, it only takes a few minutes to refund my money. I know some people have loyalty to him; and I did too for a long time. But their business practices are dishonest. Keeping customers' money for over a year (and continuing to keep it after requests for a refund) and keeping customers in the dark is dishonest.

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There are a few things that I just don't understand, concerning all this.

 

1. Why do people continue to send these guys business? I've heard way too many accounts of people getting strung along.

 

2. Why is the turn around time at E-Tac so incredibly long? I think they just moved to a new facility, but that's been a while. What could be taking so long? They seem to have enough time to post information about new products they've developed...

 

3. Why do they have such an issue communicating with people (OR are the people that complain constantly bothering them, leading them to brush them off). Either way, they're getting taken for a ride.

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. . . I've already paid upfront. I've requested a refund and still no response. I'm very close to contacting the Better Business Bureau and my attorney. - Chase

Well. . . if you decide to pursue that route, it would be interesting to learn how that ultimately works out for you.

 

As for me personally, I'm in the small camp of folks that have essentially subsribed to the notion that, "it takes as long as it takes."

 

:rolleyes:

 

That still does not excuse the broken promises (lies), lack of return e-mails and phone calls. I have my own business too. Zero communication means a poorly run business or a scam. I've been ripped off before; and they're more likely to get away with it the longer I wait. Frankly, if E-tac goes under, I bet most people would ask, why'd you wait for so long? C'mon!!! It does not take over a year to convert a gun! You don't promise 6 months then stop returning e-mails and phone calls! To be honest, I would have waited 1.5 years if they could just communicate. And maybe you're right, Gary. "It takes as long as it takes... to lose your money." $2065 is a lot of money to be tied up... And I paid for the interest. LOOK AT HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE COMPLAINED ABOUT E-TAC!!! I gave Esteban and Craig every chance I could. I have been forgiving and patient. But more than anything, it only takes a few minutes to refund my money. I know some people have loyalty to him; and I did too for a long time. But their business practices are dishonest. Keeping customers' money for over a year (and continuing to keep it after requests for a refund) and keeping customers in the dark is dishonest.

 

Chase, obviously I have no answers for you that would even remotely diffuse or lessen your anguish and frustration. Clearly there is only one person breathing, that can appropriately address each and every statement and question that you have. . . and that is Esteban himself. Yet even if he were to do so, for you (based on this track record you've conveyed), anything he might state would be received with great skepticism at best. Oh by the way, Craig no longer works at E-Tac CNC GoGun, and to my understanding pretty-much the entire working crew (however small that it was) was let go. Reportedly, this all occurred approximately a month or so ago. . . and Esteban even said his "goodbyes" to his business partner.

 

But if true, what does all that mean? It doesn't mean squat; a commitment/obligation/contract was made, money was forwarded in good faith. . . and the rest, some friggen attorney or whomever would need to articulate or state it better than I ever could.

 

FWIW (and it's really not worth anything), don't believe those of us that have read this thread have not picked up on the fact that you've been a member here since 2008, yet the above post was only your third (3rd). Your credibility has not been established here. As stupid as that may be received, it doesn't make it any less a fact. Just something to consider as you rage on.

 

Respectfully,

 

~Gary

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