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Saiga12 Ten Round Magazines are LEGAL IN CALIFORNIA


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#1 lokmeup

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Posted 18 September 2008 - 05:51 PM

I PM’ed you earlier about notifying me when the Saiga12 black 10 round magazines come in, because I want to order 4. Now, I have read the fine print on your e-store website and it states you will not ship these to CA. These are perfectly legal to ship, sell, and own in CA. There is no law that makes it otherwise. Please do a little research on the Ca laws and don’t take our rights away. The government is already doing a good enough job at that.

As this is the case, Henderson Defense as well as several other FFL’s have started shipping Saiga12’s into CA.
Henderson Defense advertisement of CA LEGAL Saiga12’s conversion: http://www.calguns.n...nderson defense



The California GunWiki on Shotguns: http://thegunwiki.co...niaShotgunGuide

“• Semi-auto shotguns may never have detachable magazines. This is in contrast to the rifle statute, which allows detachable magazines if there is no pistol grip, folding stock, etc. However, a Saiga-12 imported by an off-list manufacturer and equipped with a bullet button or other legally compliant magazine lock is legal.”

Assault Weapon Definition, Shotgun Section
12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
Rifle/Pistol sections deleted.
(6) A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
• (A) A folding or telescoping stock.
• (B) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
(7) A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.
(8) Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

As for the law an detachable magazine is define as one that can be removed WIHTOUT the use of a tool and the DOJ said a bullet is considered a tool. The weapon has been modified before it entered California to not allow the magazine to be detached without the use of a tool. So the weapon is configured legally, and was imported into CA legally. One the bullet button is installed the magazine isn’t technically detachable because you have to use a tool. You have to get the tool out of your pocket, poke it in the hole, detach the mag, put in another one... PERFECTLY LEGAL.

But the REAL main point it that there are NO LAWS BANNING 10 Round Capacity Magazines. Just more than 10 round magazines.

Thanks for your time!



PS. On a side note New York is in the same boat. They can legally use 10 Round magazines in their non-converted Saiga12's, but only 5 round magazines in their converted Saiga12's.

#2 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 10:02 PM

Is the limit actually on the capacity of the magazine? Or is it a limit to no more than TEN rounds in the shotgun at one time?

This is crucial because the full Mag will load on a closed bolt with one more in the chamber.
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#3 SJgunguy24

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 03:18 AM

Is the limit actually on the capacity of the magazine? Or is it a limit to no more than TEN rounds in the shotgun at one time?

This is crucial because the full Mag will load on a closed bolt with one more in the chamber.



If you read the law it states "any ammunition feeding device capible of holding more than 10 rounds" 10 round mags are perfectly legal. Also disassembled Hi-cap mags are legal as "parts kits" to repair any legally owned (pre 1/1/00) hi cap mags.

You would be suprised to see the stuff we have here in Cali. As long as the gun isn't on the A.W. ban list it's far game. Now I know for a fact the CA DOJ sends out threatening letters to out of state FFL's. Don't think for a second we here in Cali don't know about these actions. They should be considered criminal I.M.H.O. We have had many FFL's deny Cali residents "Do to paperwork" now thats a load of shit! The C.F.L.C. is an online form that takes all of about 5mins to complete. You print out a copy and throw it in the box and send it out. Last time I checked gun dealers are in buisness to make money. Well if you want to close yourselves off to 35 million potentual costumers......well thats just insane!

If there is any questions about California gun laws, most go to the DOJ's website. The DOJ NEVER UPDATES THE WEBSITE!!!! They still have that damn "series" law on there that was thrown out in 2001. The most up to date info and most active 2nd amendment foundation is www.calguns.net check it out you just might learn something about taking the fight for our (YOUR) rights to the people who hate true freedom.

#4 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:49 PM

Actually, I am a member at calguns.net. I joined there just to do research on 'high cap' mags for Saigas / AKs.
I do know that it's legal (at least from all I could find out) to send AK mags to Cali, just as long as they cannot physically hold more than ten rounds. Anyone heard anything different?

I am planning to place a call to the CA DOJ myself just to help clear this issue up once and for all.
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#5 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 05:54 PM

federal law stipulates a shotgun as having high capacity capability passed 5 rounds.

not sure how that all works, something to take a look at. This was exactly why i didnt, and still dont believe they are legal in NY, as well.
Rockin the Saiga world since 2003

#6 SJgunguy24

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 10:46 PM

Actually, I am a member at calguns.net. I joined there just to do research on 'high cap' mags for Saigas / AKs.
I do know that it's legal (at least from all I could find out) to send AK mags to Cali, just as long as they cannot physically hold more than ten rounds. Anyone heard anything different?

I am planning to place a call to the CA DOJ myself just to help clear this issue up once and for all.


This is how the law works. If someone has legally owned mags(pre 1/1/00) then the law allows rebuild kits to be imported ti Cali. A rebuild kit CANNOT be a completely built mag. Pop the base plate remove the guts package and ship. That simple. If you want to send a complete mag then it can only hold a max of 10 rounds.

Cobra 76,you were asking about chambered ammo counting towards the count. The answer is no. Some i've headr are trying to skirt the law (handguns) by loading up 40 cal mags with 9mm ammo. I have no clue if this works,I don't need to. I dropped 1000's buying up mags before the ban. If you want to call DOJ be my guest. Just remember that they don't want guns in Cali. just hit up Calguns and do a search, or go through the archives in the general gun threads. If you need any help P.M. me here or at calguns (same screen name)

#7 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 06:48 PM

ok, well, seeing how the agp ten rounders werent made prior to 1/1/00, how does saiga12 ten round mags apply to this?

Im guessing this topic has gone astray?
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#8 SJgunguy24

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 11:10 PM

ok, well, seeing how the agp ten rounders werent made prior to 1/1/00, how does saiga12 ten round mags apply to this?

Im guessing this topic has gone astray?

Bvamp, come on man. Read your question again. A saiga12 agp 10 round mag holds how many rounds? The answer is 10. Sooooo if the law says mags can only hold 10 rounds, and the Saiga12 agp 10 round mags only holds 10 rounds. (the key is 10 rounds) Then it is legal. Now lets say the agp Saiga12 mag holds 15 rounds. Then it would be illegal. Why, because it didn't exist prior to the A.W. ban.

#9 jrmy_1

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 10:59 AM

ok, well, seeing how the agp ten rounders werent made prior to 1/1/00, how does saiga12 ten round mags apply to this?

Im guessing this topic has gone astray?

Bvamp, come on man. Read your question again. A saiga12 agp 10 round mag holds how many rounds? The answer is 10. Sooooo if the law says mags can only hold 10 rounds, and the Saiga12 agp 10 round mags only holds 10 rounds. (the key is 10 rounds) Then it is legal. Now lets say the agp Saiga12 mag holds 15 rounds. Then it would be illegal. Why, because it didn't exist prior to the A.W. ban.


Sounds like they are legal in Cali. if as you say, you need to use a tool to remove the mag. and the law states 10 rounds in a feeding device as the limit.

The federal law has no bearing on the CA AWB. You only need to be familiar with the CA statues.

Sounds legal to me (haven't read any laws myself. Just based on what I've read here.)
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#10 SJgunguy24

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 10:10 PM

ok, well, seeing how the agp ten rounders werent made prior to 1/1/00, how does saiga12 ten round mags apply to this?

Im guessing this topic has gone astray?

Bvamp, come on man. Read your question again. A saiga12 agp 10 round mag holds how many rounds? The answer is 10. Sooooo if the law says mags can only hold 10 rounds, and the Saiga12 agp 10 round mags only holds 10 rounds. (the key is 10 rounds) Then it is legal. Now lets say the agp Saiga12 mag holds 15 rounds. Then it would be illegal. Why, because it didn't exist prior to the A.W. ban.


Sounds like they are legal in Cali. if as you say, you need to use a tool to remove the mag. and the law states 10 rounds in a feeding device as the limit.

The federal law has no bearing on the CA AWB. You only need to be familiar with the CA statues.

Sounds legal to me (haven't read any laws myself. Just based on what I've read here.)



Your correct the 10 round mags are legal. The only thing i'm gonna clear up is the "rebuild kit". If someone ships a complete ready for use hi cap mag that is a felony. The key is no assembly. A rebuild kit is all the parts to completly rebuild a hi cap mag. Body,base plate,follower, spring.

Now lets say a gun was put on the market in 2005 and there is hicaps avalible. Well it would be impossible to legally own mags prior to 1/1/00 if said firearm didn't exist before the date. I think that should answer any questions about Cali's mag law.

#11 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 01:32 PM

so it isnt written like the NYS law, and states "high capacity shotgun magazine" instead of the ten round limit, and then go into other dribble which further confuses the end reader into what is and what isnt legal. In NY law case, i wasnt prepared to go head to head with the DA and judge again over a grey area of the law. I barely succeeded in winning my case the last time, at great personal expense to me and my family. I was not allowed to have my gun returned either, even though I had not broken any laws, as it were. Go figure. thats a whole other story in itself though, that i dont wish to get into.

Ive not taken to reading every letter of every states laws lately, so I really do not know exactly what it says in california state law. I do know that on a federal level, a high capacity magazine for a shotgun by definition is in excess of 5 rounds.

Unless the state makes an exception to the definition, in a special written word of law that states "any shotgun magazine that holds more than ten rounds is considered high capacity in this state", I would think the federal definition is in order, thus making 10 round shotgun mags by default illegal. If one looks at it as a flow chart, it sort of makes sense, however stupid it is.

I dunno, but I wouldnt be willing to go to court over it. as much as it would be legal from my standpoint while residing in NY (in my case) it also can be argued that it is just as illegal in the states favor. Being a representative/employed by a gun company that sells these same guns, I am not in a position to assume anything or take anyone's word on how the law MIGHT stand, and must err in favor what I see and know. Our guns for california customers WILL go out ONLY with 5 rounders in place, with the lockup tab cover installed.

I simply do not see how it is possible, but maybe it is, with an incompletely written ban law in place. I just simply do not see how the federal definition of "high capacity shotgun magazine" is overridden. If that were the case, I would think RAAC would open a warehouse in california, and import the russian 8 round mags for domestic distribution.

Again, I just do not understand the logic. I see nothing in cali or NY law so far, that says the federal definition of more than 5 round shotgun mag of ANY TYPE is NOT considered high capacity. in NY, this is relevant because it is a semi automatic shotgun. I just dont get it, all around.

anyway, theres my logic on the matter, and my official standpoint, pertaining to my legality of selling these. I simply cannot conceiveably argue the that it IS ok, when clearly there is a fail safe law already above those in place obn a state level that is contrary to some gun grabber's bullshit and halfassed laws, however messed up or right violating they may be.

I agree, it sure looks like you are correct, but there is the little matter of that little federal definition.....you may very well be allowed to bring them in, but Im telling you, that they are still high capacity mags by the letter of the law, from how I see it.
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#12 SJgunguy24

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 03:48 PM

Ben, I know your covering your ass. I will never hold that against you and thats cool. Your FFL, and your ass. I also thank you for helping us out.(Cali) I have been trying to spread the CGW name around. I do know that here in Cali you can walk into a gun shop and buy a Remington 1100, a 8 round tube mag fed semi auto shotgun. That isn't affected by the A.W. ban because it's tube fed. I stopped trying to figure out why these "feel good" laws are passed because anybody who is willing to commit a crime, sure as hell isn't going to fill out a 4473 or wait 10 days or give a rats ass about any fuckin' laws. Nope only the law abiding citizens have to wait and deal with these shit brained conceived laws.

#13 fenrir

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 01:50 AM

federal law stipulates a shotgun as having high capacity capability passed 5 rounds.

not sure how that all works, something to take a look at. This was exactly why i didnt, and still dont believe they are legal in NY, as well.


NY State has the "rule of two" for evil features, a removable mag counts on a semi-automatic shotgun but not on rifles and removable mag capacity is limited to 10 on all long guns unless the mag is pre-ban

If you were to 'add' a 10 round mag to a semi-auto shot gun, you now have an "assault weapon" that is still legal, 10 round mag and a pistol grip on a semi-auto shotgun, congrats you're now going to jail.

To make things more complicated the cities of Albany, Buffalo, New York, Rochester, and Yonkers have their own more restrictive laws ie permits for long guns, no night vision

With NY State it always best to have more then one source that agrees for your info, as you will more often then not get conflicting information from the same office. Here are the highlights from http://www.nysrpa.org/nygunlaws.htm and/or http://www.nraila.or...awpdfs/NYSL.pdf

“Assault weapon” is defined as:
A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following characteristics:
• a folding or telescoping stock;
• a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
• a bayonet mount;
• a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor;
• a grenade launcher.

• A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least two of the following characteristics:
• a folding or telescoping stock;
• a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
• a fixed magazine capacity in excess of five rounds;
• an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Assault weapons does not include:
• any rifle, shotgun or pistol that: is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever or slide action; or has been rendered permanently inoperable; or
• An antique firearm as defined under federal law
• A semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than five rounds of ammunition;
• A semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than five rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine;
• A rifle, shotgun or pistol, or a replica or a duplicate thereof, specifically exempted from the federal assault weapon ban list as such weapon was manufactured on October 1, 1993.

“Large capacity ammunition feeding device” means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device, manufactured after September 13, 1994, that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition. There is an exception for an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition."
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#14 hallboss

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 04:19 PM

If I could offer my 2 cents.

In the state of California you will not find a definition pertaining to shotgun magazines, mostly due to the fact that PC 12276.1 explicitely states that a shotgun with a detachable magazine is considered an assault weapon and is therefore illegal. CA legislators did not take into consideration that there is a configuration of shotgun that can accept a magazine and still be legal (i.e a bullet button). Since they did not recognize this, in their opinion there was no need to describe what a hi cap mag is for a shotgun.

In the same breath however, there are many tubefed shotguns sold in CA that carry 9 and 10 rounds, not to mention magazine tube extensions are legal in CA. Which leads to the reasonable standpoint, that a shotgun in a CA legal configuration can carry in upwards of 10 rounds, which is the same for all other weapons in CA as described in PC 12020 sub "D" paragraph 25. In that very same section, you will find the definition of a hi cap magazine, which leads you back to 10 rounds.

So if you have a shotgun that is in legal configuration in the State of California and it happens to accept a "removable" magazine, then also possessing an ammunition feeding device for the gun that contains no more than 10 rounds, you are still within the confines of CA law.

If for any reason, you do not agree please feel free to contact DOJ firearms division at this number 916-263-4887 and ask. I have spoken with several people there and have been told the very same thing. It boils down to the ammo feeding device contains the ammo, it does not actually fire the ammo and therefore, you have look at the laws in regards to ammo feeding devices and not firearms laws.


Hope this helps,
Darin

Edited by hallboss, 23 December 2008 - 12:06 AM.

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#15 SJgunguy24

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Posted 25 December 2008 - 02:56 PM

If I could offer my 2 cents.

In the state of California you will not find a definition pertaining to shotgun magazines, mostly due to the fact that PC 12276.1 explicitely states that a shotgun with a detachable magazine is considered an assault weapon and is therefore illegal. CA legislators did not take into consideration that there is a configuration of shotgun that can accept a magazine and still be legal (i.e a bullet button). Since they did not recognize this, in their opinion there was no need to describe what a hi cap mag is for a shotgun.

In the same breath however, there are many tubefed shotguns sold in CA that carry 9 and 10 rounds, not to mention magazine tube extensions are legal in CA. Which leads to the reasonable standpoint, that a shotgun in a CA legal configuration can carry in upwards of 10 rounds, which is the same for all other weapons in CA as described in PC 12020 sub "D" paragraph 25. In that very same section, you will find the definition of a hi cap magazine, which leads you back to 10 rounds.

So if you have a shotgun that is in legal configuration in the State of California and it happens to accept a "removable" magazine, then also possessing an ammunition feeding device for the gun that contains no more than 10 rounds, you are still within the confines of CA law.

If for any reason, you do not agree please feel free to contact DOJ firearms division at this number 916-263-4887 and ask. I have spoken with several people there and have been told the very same thing. It boils down to the ammo feeding device contains the ammo, it does not actually fire the ammo and therefore, you have look at the laws in regards to ammo feeding devices and not firearms laws.


Hope this helps,
Darin


Darin, you should go back and read 12276.1 completely. I have my yellow A.T.F. book right here. A shotgun with a detachable mag is only considered an A.W. if it's SEMI AUTO. The law for shotguns is the same for rifles, execpt for the "revolving cylinder" . Thats the key right there. Do you remember the Valtro 12ga shotguns? Detach mags but they were pump guns, not A.W.'s.

Ben (Bvamp) keeps referring to Federal laws for the 5 round shotgun mag. I thought the Fed A.W. law expired in 2004.

#16 hallboss

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Posted 26 December 2008 - 01:38 AM

If I could offer my 2 cents.

In the state of California you will not find a definition pertaining to shotgun magazines, mostly due to the fact that PC 12276.1 explicitely states that a shotgun with a detachable magazine is considered an assault weapon and is therefore illegal. CA legislators did not take into consideration that there is a configuration of shotgun that can accept a magazine and still be legal (i.e a bullet button). Since they did not recognize this, in their opinion there was no need to describe what a hi cap mag is for a shotgun.

In the same breath however, there are many tubefed shotguns sold in CA that carry 9 and 10 rounds, not to mention magazine tube extensions are legal in CA. Which leads to the reasonable standpoint, that a shotgun in a CA legal configuration can carry in upwards of 10 rounds, which is the same for all other weapons in CA as described in PC 12020 sub "D" paragraph 25. In that very same section, you will find the definition of a hi cap magazine, which leads you back to 10 rounds.

So if you have a shotgun that is in legal configuration in the State of California and it happens to accept a "removable" magazine, then also possessing an ammunition feeding device for the gun that contains no more than 10 rounds, you are still within the confines of CA law.

If for any reason, you do not agree please feel free to contact DOJ firearms division at this number 916-263-4887 and ask. I have spoken with several people there and have been told the very same thing. It boils down to the ammo feeding device contains the ammo, it does not actually fire the ammo and therefore, you have look at the laws in regards to ammo feeding devices and not firearms laws.


Hope this helps,
Darin


Darin, you should go back and read 12276.1 completely. I have my yellow A.T.F. book right here. A shotgun with a detachable mag is only considered an A.W. if it's SEMI AUTO. The law for shotguns is the same for rifles, execpt for the "revolving cylinder" . Thats the key right there. Do you remember the Valtro 12ga shotguns? Detach mags but they were pump guns, not A.W.'s.

Ben (Bvamp) keeps referring to Federal laws for the 5 round shotgun mag. I thought the Fed A.W. law expired in 2004.

Yeah I'll do that, but when you get your foot out of your mouth then maybe you could do the same.....lol....shotguns and rifles are different and tube fed's can be AW's. And the ATF handbook is not California Penal code, which was what I was referring to. :haha: :oops:

As far as you and BVamp, I am stayin' out of that one. I like Ben and considering his business deals with federal law sales and registration, I would take his word for it and not Cal-Guns. It may be a great resource (and they are), but when you screw up based on advice you got at Cal-Guns, I really don't think the judge will allow that as a defense, I don't care how "outdated" Cal DOJ's website is.


edit: first post sounded like I was playing a small violin :wacko: :blush:

Edited by hallboss, 29 December 2008 - 12:31 AM.

Democrats are great proctologists....they're the only ones who know what the inside of an ass looks like...

#17 userids

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:56 PM

great info, thanks alot!

#18 DrGonZo

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 10:48 PM

If you want great info, go to the CADOJ's web page and find the link called "Assault weapons guide" and give it a read through. I believe its on page 71/72 that has all the characteristics of all assault weapons (rifle, shotgun and pistol). It has helped me out once or twice.
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