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A few conversion questions


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Hey everyone, about a month ago my new saiga arrived, 7.62X39, 300$ flat with shipping, beautiful rifle, 16" barrel.

 

So i got hooked to saigas, anyway, to the question.

 

I was reading a guide on how install Dinzag's bullet guides (http://dinzagarms.com/downloads/bg_install.pdf), and I understand it pretty much, but i've never had to tap anything before, drilling is easy, but tapping? What do i do? Is the tap some sort of drillbit? I'm clueless there.

 

Note: I have a Round trunnion

 

 

 

Also, i was wondering if my Pistol grip and trigger holes are precut? Because i look down into the guts of my Saiga and i SWEAR i see a pre-cut trigger hole beneath the hammer assembly, same shape as the diagram on Crosscon, Does that mean ALL my holes are cut? I can take a picture if you request.

 

Note: Where do i buy a pistol grip nut?

 

I plan on doing a conversion if i don't have to Drill those holes, as it seems like a VERY straightforward process without all that.

 

Thanks.

 

EDIT: Just looked again, there is a pistol grip nut hole.. its under the transfer bar assembly, and i see a round "cap" where the trigger guard hole is supposed to be.

Edited by Mittelmorder
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A tap looks similar to a bolt. You pretty much start to screw it in to the drilled hole, gently, and lubed well. Turn it in about about half a turn, and back it out a quarter turn. You continue to do that until it's threaded the whole way.

As far as the pistol grip nut goes, just get it from who ever you're buying the rest of your stuff from. Buying it from someone else will likely kill you with shipping prices. If you're gonna be buying the bullet guide from Dinzag, you might as well get the rest of stuff from him. He has trigger groups, fire control group retainers, nuts, bolts, gas tubes, and sells K-var furniture which is my personal favorite. Just tell him what you're gonna go and tell him what you've come up with as far as a parts list. If there's something else you're gonna need, or something you're not gonna need, he'll let you know. Brian is a great guy to deal with.

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Ok cool, Tapping sounds pretty easy then, i just don't want to screw up my Saiga.

 

In all of your opinions, How was the conversion? I'm looking at cross con and a video on youtube, all the drilling looks simple.. removing the plate, etc, all of it looks like a cakewalk, only thing that looks difficult is installing the new trigger group, i'm totally stupid when it comes to this stuff.

Edited by Mittelmorder
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Tapping is not too hard, but TAKE YOUR TIME and do not force anything. Taps are somewhat brittle, and breaking one off in the hole is not unheard of.

 

The conversion is easy. Take your time with it, and it should work out fine.

 

The trigger hole is always pre-cut for a single-hook trigger. If the receiver is "dimpled" just above where the magazine inserts, the PG nut hole probably will NOT be pre-cut. If the sides of the receiver are flat above where the magazine inserts, the PG nut hole probably will be pre-cut. Installing the new FCG is easy. To me, removing the bottom plate is the hardest part, and that isn't hard.

 

+1 on Dinzag! His products are great and he is an awesome guy to deal with.

 

Good luck!

Edited by hogdog
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My receiver isnt dimpled at all.

 

Ok, I just went and took some pictures of my internals so you guys can look and see if i have my holes cut, i'm by no means an expert in any of this, so take a look.. i added markings to show you where i saw holes.

 

http://img72.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1001225copyvd9.jpg

 

As you can see, you can see an outline of the trigger hole, and you cant see it in the picture but i can see a small outline for a grip nut, and between them is a circular "nub" i can see, i'd think being the trigger guard hole?

Edited by Mittelmorder
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I"m not sure what you're looking for. All Saigas have their trigger hole cut.

 

You need to be looking toward the rear of the receiver for the hole for the pistol grip.

 

P.S. you can email your large pix to me at gmail DOT com and I'll host 'em for you, if you wish.

Edited by nalioth
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Oh, all of them do? i was under the impression that all of them dont, See i was just trying to figure out if i had all my holes pre-cut

 

Well, under the transfer bar pin i see an outline of the pistol grip hole, I guess if it wasnt drilled that wouldnt be there?

Edited by Mittelmorder
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Oh, all of them do? i was under the impression that all of them dont, See i was just trying to figure out if i had all my holes pre-cut

 

Well, under the transfer bar pin i see an outline of the pistol grip hole, I guess if it wasnt drilled that wouldnt be there/

The receiver has to have a trigger hole cut so their vestigial trigger upper thing can rotate properly.

 

Item 8 connects to the ham bone, er, item 7. which connects to item 9 and the whole unnatural mess is held in place by items 10

 

saiga556_664_a.JPG

 

This is why the trigger sucks so bad in a factory Saiga.

Edited by nalioth
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Ok, i do have all the holes precut.. time to get off my ass and do it, though.

 

I'm almost too nervous to do it, i dont want to mess it up, which i know in the long run if im gonna do it i just have to throw myself at it.

 

 

Good Luck, Man! Keep us posted.

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A tap looks similar to a bolt. You pretty much start to screw it in to the drilled hole, gently, and lubed well. Turn it in about about half a turn, and back it out a quarter turn. You continue to do that until it's threaded the whole way.

As far as the pistol grip nut goes, just get it from who ever you're buying the rest of your stuff from. Buying it from someone else will likely kill you with shipping prices. If you're gonna be buying the bullet guide from Dinzag, you might as well get the rest of stuff from him. He has trigger groups, fire control group retainers, nuts, bolts, gas tubes, and sells K-var furniture which is my personal favorite. Just tell him what you're gonna go and tell him what you've come up with as far as a parts list. If there's something else you're gonna need, or something you're not gonna need, he'll let you know. Brian is a great guy to deal with.

 

Ok then, so is this tap a drill bit? Or do i screw it in by hand?

 

 

Good Luck, Man! Keep us posted.

 

I will, whenever i decide to buy the stock and stuff, in other words when i build up enough confidence.

 

So far the list of stuff i need is as follows:

Stock, Pistol grip. grip nut, and grip screw, All of them i have found at KVAR.. cept the nut, its out of stock.

 

If i order a stock from KVAR, does he include the screws for it?

 

Anything else do i need besides drill bits and the like?

Edited by Mittelmorder
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no no no . not a drill bit . You'll end up using something similar to these:

 

TAP_HANDLE_RESIZE2.JPG

 

Interesting looking thing..

 

Question: When i'm drilling out the spot weld on the trigger plate, do i drill all the way through the receiver? Or do i stop before i go through?

 

Also: Does this look like a pre-cut grip nut hole? This is under the transfer bar rube goldberg machine.

 

http://img529.imageshack.us/my.php?image=i...sitsmallht5.jpg

Edited by Mittelmorder
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Yea , thats the PG hole.

Just drill through the guard itself and it will pop off.

 

Ok, so what parts do i need to make this conversion? So far i've listed..

 

Pistol grip, PG nut and PG screw, Stock. (Does Dinzag include stock screws when you order from him and buy a kvar stock?)

And a Saiga conversion FCG from dinzag.

 

I'm gonna re-use my current trigger guard.. Is that all i need?

Edited by Mittelmorder
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Yea , thats the PG hole.

Just drill through the guard itself and it will pop off.

 

Ok, so what parts do i need to make this conversion? So far i've listed..

 

Pistol grip, PG nut and PG screw, Stock. (Does Dinzag include stock screws when you order from him and buy a kvar stock?)

And a Saiga conversion FCG from dinzag.

 

I'm gonna re-use my current trigger guard.. Is that all i need?

K-Var supplies stock screws with each new stock.

 

Your list is fine.

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http://dinzagarms.com/misc_parts/fcgpgc.html

 

This is the trigger group i buy, right?

 

I dont need a retaining plate?

You just need a regular Tapco G2 single hook FCG.

 

You'll need some kind of retaining wire, but you can make one out of your factory one that you'll pull out.

 

I think i might just buy a retaining plate to make it easier, but I'm a lazy fart, so.. :rolleyes:

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Looks like I'll probably just be doing a giant order from dinzag.. cant find any other sites that have ALL the parts i need.

 

 

I'm looking at Dinzags bullet guide kit, It looks like he gives you a tap, a drillbit, and allen wrench?

 

How do i use the tap anyway, Twist it with my hand? plyers? Or is that little Allen wrench looking thingy actually a holder for the tap? The tapping process is the only thing that looks daunting to me, I dont want to screw it up and fruck up my saiga's feed ramp.

Edited by Mittelmorder
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Ok then, so is this tap a drill bit? Or do i screw it in by hand?

 

 

 

 

no no no . not a drill bit . You'll end up using something similar to these:

 

TAP_HANDLE_RESIZE2.JPG

 

To use the tap like it's designed to be used, you need to get one of these tap handles like the ones pictured above. (Not the ones in the top half of the pic, those are for holding the dies, which make outside threads to thread a nut on to)

 

The red colored one in the center is the small size like you need for a small tap like you have.

 

 

 

Another option though, and this is the method I use, is to chuck the tap in a variable speed cordless drill (if it has a clutch this is a big plus because you can set it to start slipping when it gets in a bind, preventing you from forcing it and breaking the tap off in the hole, which is a very common occurrence no matter what method you use), and very carefully and slowly line the tap up perpendicular to the receiver and inline with your hole, then just drill SLOWLY. If it gets stuck you need to stop, reverse the motor and back off some, then go forward again til it stops, then repeat process. It's very important to use oil on the tap to help it cut the threads. It's also VERY important too be able to feather the trigger on your drill and be able to let off immediately if you run into too much resistance. As said above, these taps are very hard which makes them very brittle. It will start to flex and then it will snap right off so don't push it past the flexing point or you are asking for it.

Also very important....you need to STOP once you are all the way through the trunnion and have the hole threaded, or else you will run into the bottom of the receiver and still snap the tap off. Iff you break it off there it's even harder to get back out.

 

I wouldn't even recommend using the drill method unless you have used drills so much that they are like an extension of your hand (like they are to me after having been a drywall mechanic and metal stud framer for many years..).

 

If you do have absolute control though, and a drill with a clutch, it's by far the easiest and best way IMO to get a perfectly straight hole. This is because the drill axis stays perfectly centered and can't wobble like your hand can when using that cumbersome tap handle. Plus, with every turn of the tap handle you have to change your grip on it, making it even harder to keep your axis straight.

 

If I were you, and it's your first time tapping a hole, I would practice first on some mild steel, the same approx thickness of your trunnion or I already know what your next post is probably going to be about...lol.

 

From my experience with tapping holes in steel, you ARE GOING to break a tap off eventually, especially using ones this small. If there's anyone out there who has not, then they are either just very anal, or very lucky.

 

It's not the end of the world though if you do break it off. Just go get another one from the local hardware store for a couple of bucks. You can remove a broken tap pretty easily. If you can't get some pliars on it and unscew it, (which usually you can't because it breaks off in the hole where the most resistance is), you can simply shatter it with a small center punch or nail set and get it out of there.

 

Good luck. Sorry to make it sound so difficult, there's really nothing to it if you follow instructions and do it right. My first one took me about 5 minutes from start to finish, with my gun resting on a sandbag on my pool table, a cordless drill, and a tap handle.

Get some green or red locktite to put on the threads when you do the final install.

 

Also make sure you test fit it first to be sure your bolt is going the clear the bullet guide and your mags will feed the rounds. THEN take it out and reinstall with locktite.

:smoke:

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I used E clips which I purchased at the local Lowe's instead of the retaining plate.

 

I just completed my first conversion and I'm pleased with it. No where near as hard as I thought it was going to be. Like you, I was hesitant to do it. Just get started and once you do, you will realize how easy it is.

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I used E clips which I purchased at the local Lowe's instead of the retaining plate.

 

I just completed my first conversion and I'm pleased with it. No where near as hard as I thought it was going to be. Like you, I was hesitant to do it. Just get started and once you do, you will realize how easy it is.

 

Yeah, i'm pretty much all for it now, a pretty gung-ho attitude at the moment, Just the price of all the parts (Around 130$) Is quite a bit, enough to buy say a mosin nagant, so i have to ask myself "Is the convert worth it?"

 

 

Also: Does anyone have the Tapco Saw pistol grip? if so, is it a nice grip?

Edited by Mittelmorder
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I just want to clarify on the whole drilling and tapping for the bullet guide.

 

I put the bullet guide in place, mark the center of the hole, center punch it, drill it, But how far do i drill down?

 

Then tap it, from what i get is i turn the tap half a turn (180 degrees) then back a quarter (90 degrees) then keep doing that untill i get to the bottom of the hole?

Edited by Mittelmorder
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Also: Does anyone have the Tapco Saw pistol grip? if so, is it a nice grip?

If you have big mitts, it's an excellent grip.

 

I just want to clarify on the whole drilling and tapping for the bullet guide.

 

I put the bullet guide in place, mark the center of the hole, center punch it, drill it, But how far do i drill down?

 

Then tap it, from what i get is i turn the tap half a turn (180 degrees) then back a quarter (90 degrees) then keep doing that untill i get to the bottom of the hole?

You drill all the way through the trunnion (stop before you drill through the receiver).

 

Tapping is a lesson in patience and discipline.

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The cost of the conversion, 140$ (With all the parts i have gathered) Has put me at a standstill, i debate whether i want to convert my saiga, buy a mosin nagant, or perhaps put the money towards an SKS.

 

So i'm looking for ways to cut costs, can anyone help me out? Do e-clips work just as good as a retaining plate so i don't have to spend the extra money? ETC, throw me some ways i can cut costs.

 

I'd like to order ALL my stuff from dinzag in one shot if possible to save on shipping, also, are there any alternatives to 50$ kvar stock, besides the flimsy tapco folder?

 

Thanks.

Edited by Mittelmorder
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