Saigaczech 9 Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 Ok, just took a defensive shotgun course and here is what they suggested. Get a 20 gauge, not a 12 gauge fro civilian home defense (We already have one because of wife). The academy director did some tests and a 12 gauge will penetrate exterior walls even with bird shot, never mind the buck or slug. DO you live in a closely packed residential area? Do you need the extra liability for loose pellets, shot or slugs? The 20 gauge has more then enough close in stopping power and is faster back on target too. Our instructor (active metropolitan police and ex UK military North Ireland) says he uses a 20 at home for these reasons. Remember, each projectile has a lawyer attached. You would be amazed at the damage a single bird pellet can do downrange if it misses target. You have been warned. Also, the youth stock is recommended as you might be wearing heavy clothing and that would add to length of pull. Mossbergs should be avoided or have the flimsy safety replaced with a solid aftermarket model, The Mossberg safety never survives 300 round defensive course. Use the sights, even shot guns will miss if you don't. Just FYI for those interested. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 The academy director did some tests and a 12 gauge will penetrate exterior walls even with bird shot, never mind the buck or slug. How many houses did he shoot up? The house I"m in was built in the 40s by the homeowner. It's got rock wool in the walls and brick all around. I highly doubt I could penetrate my walls with a box of birdshot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Garys4598 1,065 Posted September 30, 2008 Report Share Posted September 30, 2008 (edited) Ok, just took a defensive shotgun course and here is what they suggested. Get a 20 gauge, not a 12 gauge fro civilian home defense (We already have one because of wife). The academy director did some tests and a 12 gauge will penetrate exterior walls even with bird shot, never mind the buck or slug. DO you live in a closely packed residential area? Do you need the extra liability for loose pellets, shot or slugs? The 20 gauge has more then enough close in stopping power and is faster back on target too. Our instructor (active metropolitan police and ex UK military North Ireland) says he uses a 20 at home for these reasons. Remember, each projectile has a lawyer attached. You would be amazed at the damage a single bird pellet can do downrange if it misses target. You have been warned. Also, the youth stock is recommended as you might be wearing heavy clothing and that would add to length of pull. Mossbergs should be avoided or have the flimsy safety replaced with a solid aftermarket model, The Mossberg safety never survives 300 round defensive course. Use the sights, even shot guns will miss if you don't. Just FYI for those interested. When I read and hear of this sort of thing (the 20ga shotgun being better for home defense over the 12ga due to penetration) I friggen fall down laughing. Why? Specifically because with regards to the Saiga-12 and Saiga-20 shotguns, based on the statistics that have been published, the Saiga-20 creates/exhibits more penetration than the S-12. Hey, like I know that makes abso-friggen-lutely no sense whatsoever... but here ya have it! Here is what the following Russian website http://club.guns.ru/eng/saiga20.html states in this regard: "Numerous tests have shown, that penetration capability of "Saiga-20" firing various types of shot and slugs is better than ga. 12. The seemingly paradoxical effect is achieved due to the following: a. -- weight of propellant and shot loads are basically identical; b. -- diameter of the ga.20 load is smaller, and hence the penetration factor is higher than the one in ga. 12." Hey, I wouldn't even begin to attempt to explain the above.... but this is what the Russian scientific statistical experts have published. Ain't this interesting!!! Edited September 30, 2008 by Gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saigaczech 9 Posted October 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) Hmm, I never said a Saiga-20. Go figure. The recommended model was a Remington 870 in 20 gauge. But hey, just letting you know. Its your legal fees after you have an incident. As to the house shot up, it was a simulated mock up of a standard modern house wall. Both exterior and interior walls were framed up and shot with the damage documented on video for future reference and assessment. Nalioth, how many of your walls have you shot through testing? It goes both ways. You may have a 12 gauge proof house, but most new construction will not stop a BBgun. BTW, LFI also advises the use of a 20 gauge for home defense. One of the more important reasons is ease of use and rapid fire. 12s do kick and you can put more aimed shot/slug downrange with a 20 gauge in a given amount of time due to lower recoil dynamics. I would rather shoot a 20 twice and hit both times then shoot once with a 12. Heck, go for a 10 gauge if you need to prove you are a man. Edited October 1, 2008 by Saigaczech Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saigaczech 9 Posted October 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 (edited) More on the topic. Depends on if you like perforating kin in your house. Edited October 1, 2008 by Saigaczech Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 Usually the advice to use a 20 gauge for home defense is centered on the idea that a person of less then 140 Lbs body weight will be operating it. That is how much body mass in takes on average to counter the recoil of the average 12 gauge buckshot load, with accuracy. The shorter that person is, the better, taller people having a higher center of gravity. Other then that there is no reason in hell to use a 20 gauge, unless that is what you have. There is a reason that the 12 gauge is the standard with police, serious security and the military, irrespective of the opinion to the contrary of this academy director and his UK buddy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted October 1, 2008 Report Share Posted October 1, 2008 It is impossible to make people understand their ignorance; for it requires knowledge to perceive it and therefore he that can perceive it hath it not. Jeremy Taylor English prelate (1613 - 1667) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WardenWolf 6 Posted October 5, 2008 Report Share Posted October 5, 2008 (edited) One thing I've noticed from watching videos and personal experience is that Saigas with the default hunting buttstock are extremely stable. The muzzle pretty much stays where you put it, regardless of caliber or gauge. Even firing a 12-gauge converted to full auto, with an average-sized shooter, it's going to stay right on a human-sized target at normal home defense ranges. Because of this, they're quite solid in a home defense role. Of course, pumps work fine, too, but then you have the whole reload time to deal with. My philosophy with any gun is this: "I've got one shot guaranteed. Make it count." Any gun may malfunction or jam, and you can only count on the very first shot. Edited October 5, 2008 by Mike the Wolf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ML Roak 0 Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Ok, I shouldn't get into this, but I will The 20ga is a perfectly fine home defense weapon, with #4 buck or bigger it is going to make just about the same size wound as a 12ga at 5 feet. I could even argue that the lowly 410 would make an OK HDG (not optimum, but passable with the right ammo. I still choose a 12ga. 870s are fine, Mossys are fine, who the hell uses a safety on a HDG, load the mag, pump when ready. In most instances I will probably have access to a handgun a lot quicker than I can get a shotgun out and going, unless you stage it by the bed. If your terrified of bullet penetration on walls, use a 10-22 with 25 round mags. I tested several different calibers on my old farm house before I tore it down, the ONLY round that didn't reliably go through the exterior wall was the 22, and still about 10% passed into the interior of the house, I tested 12ga buck/slugs, 20ga buck/slugs, 357 mag, 38 spec, 44spec (didn't bother with the mag), 303 British (it was cool, the bullet fragmented and exited the other side of the house in 2 pieces) and they all penetrated the house with plenty of oomph (I placed a 3/4 piece of plywood up against the wall on the interior the see if the rounds had any velocity left when they got through the wall). On interior walls the 22LR would pass through the first wall and you could dig them out of the walls on the other side of the room, so they still had a little juice after they passed through the wall (1/2 drywall on one side, lath and plaster on the other), I dug several out of a shower surround If you have to shoot, hit the bad guy, in your home is not the place for spray and pray, putting a bright light, and a laser on the "indoor" gun is a good idea too. If I remember correctly Box o truth did a bit on using bird shot for defense, and it performed dismally. I'd go with at least a good heavy duck load of #1 or #2 bird shot, or #4 or bigger buckshot. My personal 12ga Saiga at home has a mag of Federal Premium OObuck with the Flight control wad, it patterns on a paper plate at 25 yards, with a second mag loaded with slugs (once again, Federal Premiums, they gave one hole 3 shot groups at 35 yards). YMMV Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WardenWolf 6 Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 On the subjects of gun lights, whatever you do, don't get one of those crappy polymer flashlight mounts. I bought one and discovered the rail mount was out of spec. Because of the fact that it's just plastic, they had to put extra material under the rail wings to maintain strength. This effectively means the rail needs to have extra clearance under it or the mount will not fit. Metal mounts of various kinds all fit the same rail just fine. Don't be cheap. Get a metal mount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 All effective defense calibers will go through sheetrock walls, hit what you are shooting at. If you choose 20 Gauge, that's fine but it will also penetrate. Shot placement, as usual, is the key. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeremiahisnaked 64 Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 "I would rather shoot a 20 twice and hit both times then shoot once with a 12." "Heck, go for a 10 gauge if you need to prove you are a man" "Depends on if you like perforating kin in your house. " Wow, what an ignorant dick. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted December 3, 2008 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 Hey... Thanks for the new update to my Signature line, 1911!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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