Thumbhole stock question

[chuwii2 1]

Hi guys,

Does anyone know where I can get a thumbhole stock either the stock saiga one or a wood one? Also I know there be some confusion about 922r compliance and thumbhole stocks bein considered pistol grips, if it is a compliance issue and i use a fmbg mag which i think is 3 parts and a US made thumbhole stock, does that mean I am 922r compliant?

 

thanks for your help guys.

[chuwii2 1]

Hi guys,

Does anyone know where I can get a thumbhole stock either the stock saiga one or a wood one? Also I know there be some confusion about 922r compliance and thumbhole stocks bein considered pistol grips, if it is a compliance issue and i use a fmbg mag which i think is 3 parts and a US made thumbhole stock, does that mean I am 922r compliant?

 

thanks for your help guys.

 

sorry guys, I just wanna be clear that I was looking for a thumbhole stock that fits without moving the trigger, just a bolt on with little or no mod.

[netpackrat 566]

Hi guys,

Does anyone know where I can get a thumbhole stock either the stock saiga one or a wood one? Also I know there be some confusion about 922r compliance and thumbhole stocks bein considered pistol grips, if it is a compliance issue and i use a fmbg mag which i think is 3 parts and a US made thumbhole stock, does that mean I am 922r compliant?

 

thanks for your help guys.

 

The FBMG mags are either 2 or 1 US part, depending on which production run they are from. Original run had 2 US parts, current mags are only 1 (mag body), since the follower and floorplate are Russian. For a Saiga with no pistol grip or muzzle device, you will need a total of 4 US parts. I'm not aware of a US made thumbhole stock that does not require a trigger conversion, so you'll most likely need another 2-3 US parts, depending on which FBMG mag you have.

 

As for the thumbhole being considered a pistol grip, that is only for certain states like California that have their own AW bans. Federally, since it can be legally imported with the thumbhole stock, you don't need to make ANY changes unless you want to add an evil feature, like the aftermarket large capacity magazines.

[chuwii2 1]

Hi guys,

Does anyone know where I can get a thumbhole stock either the stock saiga one or a wood one? Also I know there be some confusion about 922r compliance and thumbhole stocks bein considered pistol grips, if it is a compliance issue and i use a fmbg mag which i think is 3 parts and a US made thumbhole stock, does that mean I am 922r compliant?

 

thanks for your help guys.

 

The FBMG mags are either 2 or 1 US part, depending on which production run they are from. Original run had 2 US parts, current mags are only 1 (mag body), since the follower and floorplate are Russian. For a Saiga with no pistol grip or muzzle device, you will need a total of 4 US parts. I'm not aware of a US made thumbhole stock that does not require a trigger conversion, so you'll most likely need another 2-3 US parts, depending on which FBMG mag you have.

 

As for the thumbhole being considered a pistol grip, that is only for certain states like California that have their own AW bans. Federally, since it can be legally imported with the thumbhole stock, you don't need to make ANY changes unless you want to add an evil feature, like the aftermarket large capacity magazines.

 

Doesn't the stock saiga thumbhole use the rearward trigger group or is it the forward trigger like a regular ak?

[chuwii2 1]

hey I found a skeleton stock sold by mississippi auto arms. They say it's a raa original part, would i be in compliance if i just changed that, since it is still a stock part? this one looks like it uses the rear trigger group. I'm itchin to get this gun up and running, the regular stock isnt ass comfortable as I like em.

[netpackrat 566]

Doesn't the stock saiga thumbhole use the rearward trigger group or is it the forward trigger like a regular ak?

 

Depends. The Saiga .308 v.21 thumbhole stock fits the forward trigger group like a normal AK has (although the rear of the v.21 receiver is slanted, not straight). The plastic Saiga factory thumbhole fits the rearward trigger group like a normal Saiga has.

 

hey I found a skeleton stock sold by mississippi auto arms. They say it's a raa original part, would i be in compliance if i just changed that, since it is still a stock part? this one looks like it uses the rear trigger group. I'm itchin to get this gun up and running, the regular stock isnt ass comfortable as I like em.

 

Since the Saiga is importable with that skeleton stock installed, then you will be in compliance as long as you use the factory mag. If you want to use a high capacity magazine you will need to substitute at least 4 US parts.

[chuwii2 1]

Doesn't the stock saiga thumbhole use the rearward trigger group or is it the forward trigger like a regular ak?

 

Depends. The Saiga .308 v.21 thumbhole stock fits the forward trigger group like a normal AK has (although the rear of the v.21 receiver is slanted, not straight). The plastic Saiga factory thumbhole fits the rearward trigger group like a normal Saiga has.

 

hey I found a skeleton stock sold by mississippi auto arms. They say it's a raa original part, would i be in compliance if i just changed that, since it is still a stock part? this one looks like it uses the rear trigger group. I'm itchin to get this gun up and running, the regular stock isnt ass comfortable as I like em.

 

Since the Saiga is importable with that skeleton stock installed, then you will be in compliance as long as you use the factory mag. If you want to use a high capacity magazine you will need to substitute at least 4 US parts.

 

 

Awsome, thanks for all the info Netpackrat. I'm gonna get the skeleton stock then. I can just use the 10rd mags for now.

[monomonk 0]

I have never seen any clear legal authority to support the statement that a rifle which is legally imported, and which is designed to accept removable magazines, somehow becomes illegal once a magazine holding more than ten rounds is inserted. This makes no sense to me. The rifle is legal. The mag is legal. But combining the two is illegal? Inserting a mag into a rifle does not change the rifle in any way. Contrast this with the act of removing the 10 round built-in mag from an SKS and then firing it with a removable mag. Quite different, yes?

 

I have never seen any evidence that anyone has ever been charged or convicted for using a high capacity magazine with a Saiga in its original configuration. CDNN actually sold the Saiga 7.62x39 with a 30 round Russian made mag. Some gun shooters and collectors may be experts in federal firearms law; others may be merely offering their personal opinions or speculation. I would be more confident in considering advice coming from a licensed attorney who has dealt with federal gun laws in his practice. No offense--just my opinion. I am not advising anyone on anything. If there is any decided case which supports the following statement, I would like to read it.

 

Monomonk

 

 

Since the Saiga is importable with that skeleton stock installed, then you will be in compliance as long as you use the factory mag. If you want to use a high capacity magazine you will need to substitute at least 4 US parts.

[monomonk 0]

Unconverted Saigas (with thumbhole stocks) are being sold right now with hi-cap mags. Is this illegal? The Saiga does not function as designed without a suitable magazine. The magazine that comes with this rilfe holds 25 rounds. It is clear that the rifle is being sold with the understanding that the buyer will fire it using the included high capacity magazine. Should the seller withdraw his ad because of legal advice being posted on the Internet? No offense, just asking a question.

 

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=113555424

 

Monomonk

[netpackrat 566]

I have never seen any clear legal authority to support the statement that a rifle which is legally imported, and which is designed to accept removable magazines, somehow becomes illegal once a magazine holding more than ten rounds is inserted. This makes no sense to me. The rifle is legal. The mag is legal. But combining the two is illegal? Inserting a mag into a rifle does not change the rifle in any way. Contrast this with the act of removing the 10 round built-in mag from an SKS and then firing it with a removable mag. Quite different, yes?

 

The fundamental mistake is expecting anything originating with the ATF to make sense. And while I am not totally versed on the legal vagaries of the SKS world, I believe that it being a C&R gun comes into play, and any change you make to it removes the C&R status that allows it to be imported. Back to the Saiga, one of the things that allows it to be imported is the low cap factory mag. I think a strong argument can be made that the existence of the high cap mags actually threatens the continued importability of the various Saigas. One of the reasons that WASRs can be brought in, is not only the thumbhole stock, but also the single stack magwell, because AFAIK there are no high cap single stack AK mags. It's only after swapping in US parts that the mag well can be opened up to take standard AK mags.

 

Part of the problem is that the ATF doesn't exactly make it easy to find out what is legal and what is not. You won't find any definition of what exactly is an "imported assault rifle" in the published regs, only that it is against the law to assemble one. It's my understanding that they defined most of this stuff in various letters and publications that get sent to FFL holders, and on a case by case basis when somebody writes them with a question. Based on some of the conflicting rulings and reversals they have issued, I don't think they even have it straight most of the time.

 

I have never seen any evidence that anyone has ever been charged or convicted for using a high capacity magazine with a Saiga in its original configuration. CDNN actually sold the Saiga 7.62x39 with a 30 round Russian made mag. Some gun shooters and collectors may be experts in federal firearms law; others may be merely offering their personal opinions or speculation. I would be more confident in considering advice coming from a licensed attorney who has dealt with federal gun laws in his practice. No offense--just my opinion. I am not advising anyone on anything. If there is any decided case which supports the following statement, I would like to read it.

 

Well, I've never heard of anybody being prosecuted for a 922r violation at all, but that doesn't mean that it won't happen to you if you ignore parts count. For the most part, it is simple enough to substitute enough US parts, and then you won't have to worry about it at all. It just isn't worth the risk of jail, fines, and losing your ability to ever own a gun again.

[netpackrat 566]

Unconverted Saigas (with thumbhole stocks) are being sold right now with hi-cap mags. Is this illegal? The Saiga does not function as designed without a suitable magazine. The magazine that comes with this rilfe holds 25 rounds. It is clear that the rifle is being sold with the understanding that the buyer will fire it using the included high capacity magazine. Should the seller withdraw his ad because of legal advice being posted on the Internet? No offense, just asking a question.

 

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=113555424

 

Monomonk

 

Just because something shows up on Gunbroker doesn't mean it is legal. And I guarantee it wasn't imported with that mag. Actually, since those surefire mags count for 3 US parts, that rifle only needs one additional US part to be legal with them. It's entirely possible that the hammer and/or disconnector has been swapped out, or even the gas piston.

[monomonk 0]

One of the problems in reading legal materials is understanding their application. For example, you may read something in a law or regulation relating to hi-cap mags and sporting rifles, but does that restriction apply to foreign manufacturers, foreign exporters to the U.S., U.S. importers, U.S. manufacturers, U.S. distributors or dealers, or U.S. purchasers or owners of firearms? The restriction may apply to one group but not to others. It would be wrong to assume, for example, that a restriction which applies to some business entities would necessarily apply to the end consumer and user.

 

My point about the Saiga for sale on Gunbroker with a 25 round Surefire mag is that such sellers need to follow qualified legal advice from an attorney, not comments posted on the Internet by gun fanciers. These comments may be factual and correct, but how would one be sure? The fact that a law or regulation is not being enforced against private individuals MAY indicate that it doesn't apply to them. If you are not sure whether what you are doing is legal, get qualified legal advice.

 

No offense to anyone. These are just my opinions.

 

Best,

 

Monomonk

[netpackrat 566]

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph © of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

 

Here is a good thread explaining 922r and parts count as applied to AK type firearms.

 

It's my personal opinion that ATF is likely not pushing 922r violations because they are afraid of getting it ruled unconstitutional. Right now, they can at least use it to restrict what is imported, because importers and dealers are like any other business, that just wants to avoid legal entanglements, and just get on with making money. I think the ATF is willing to put up with a few individuals violating 922r (especially when the same result can be achieved legally), because they want to keep it on the books to keep people like RAAC, Century, et al from importing the things in quantity.

 

But then, I'm just some guy on the internet, so take that supposition for what it is worth.