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Alliance Armament history, MD Arms response


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#1 Mike Davidson

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 10:28 AM

Yeah, it’s a lot, but worth your time!

New findings!!!! Check this out!!! Alliance Armament's video 2 a, http://www.youtube.c...feature=related I had the sound analyzed by a recording studio. There was a significant discrepancy in the "same" ammo's being fired. The first 3 rounds of federal out of the MD-20 had a lower volume. The remaining federal rounds in the MD-20 and all the federal rounds in the Wraithmaker was consistent to each other! Imagine that! It gets better! Now watch when the giant (Logan) and the hobbit (Mike Sr.) are loading drums... The hobbit is loading the MD-20, watch his little sneaky ass good. At 3 min, 35 secs into the video you will see the hobbit reach over and grab a box of "Remington" ammo. Easily identifiable by the green box and remington right on top huh!!! Well, watch the hobbit at 3 min, 38 sec. Just as the hobbit is getting ready to set it down on the table he pulls the box of Remington back up with a touch of urgency (remembering) and checks the front of the box!!!! No doubt to make sure he has the right "Remington" ammo! They probably had a small mark on the box to tell it apart. They have either done one of 2 things. They have decreased the powder load or they have decreased the weight of the lead shot in the shells. Either one would cause pressure lose from the rounds! Now watch trollboy (David) fire the gun! It is barely kicking him and at times it seems he may even be simulating a little recoil himself! I thought it was funny that trollboy called the federal "remington" in the start of the video and trollface (Mike Jr.) had to correct him. Trollboy knew the "remington" was the "good stuff" and was eager for it I think! You know what the best part is... these guys think they are so smart! I'm sure they was laugh'in, pat'in and suck'in each other off over their videos and how well they went for them! It sure is satisfiying to bust them out for the true scum they are. It seems everytime they try to help themselves, they only dig their hole deeper. I've meet some real lowlifes before... but I don't think I have ever come across someone that is as dirty and crooked as these tools!


This it meant to go along with my response videos and further show why I can say Alliance Armament has rigged Part 1, Part 2a, Part 2b and Part 3 of the Practical Drum Comparison videos they posted to their site and to youtube.

My videos are:

Part1,

Part2,

Part3, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_q6fatkcws

All information in this thread is true and verifiable history in this forum.
It all started in April of 2007. (This was close to one month after I (MDArms) had announced that I was designing and producing a 20rd Drum Magazine for the Saiga-12.) Alliance Armament had passed out flyers at the Knob Creek machinegun shoot announcing their own 20rd drum, the wraithmaker. At the time, discussion about a 20rnd drum was not allowed on the forum. A few members here assumed that the wraithmaker being advertised was of my design. In response to the misconceptions, I made a public post on the forum stating that the wraithmaker was in fact not of my design. Following the Knob Creek advertising, Alliance Armament was running searches to see if there was any buzz going on about their drum and discovered my thread and the Saiga-12 forum. Immediately following this, a new member joined the forum by the name of “Joe Hilarious.” This member immediately began to attack my drum information threads and was bashing my design, while at the same time posting shameless plugs for the wraithmaker and it demonstration videos in my threads and in other places on the forum. These attacks on me from “Joe” continued for about two weeks. From the very first attack on me it was highly suspected by myself and many other forum members that “Joe” was actually Alliance Armament or a close affiliate. After these assumptions were made public, a “new “ member joined named “wraithmaker” which made postings proclaiming Alliance Armament’s innocence and attempting to assure the public that they officially knew nothing about “Joe” or who he may be. “Joe” continued the attacks against me and also continued the plugs for the wraithmaker. Keep in mind that Alliance Armament were not yet business members and as such were not entitled or permitted to directly advertise on the forum. “Joe” began to cause trouble in other non-drum related areas and topics of the forum and was attacking other members and staff on the forum. A poll was soon started with the members voting whether or not “Joe” should be banned. After enough was enough, “Joe” had caused enough problems that he was officially banned from the Saiga-12 forum. Following this, Makc, the owner of the Saiga-12 forum, looked into the “Joe” and “Wraithmaker” members a little deeper and guess what. Both “Joe” and “Wraithmaker” were connecting with the same IP address. This of course means the same computer, or network of computers, was being used by both members to access the forum. Following this news, Alliance Armament quickly made the excuse that it was their computer guy and that they had no idea and was innocent and ignorant it was him the whole time. Almost immediately, ANOTHER new member “Mongoose” joined the forum. And guess what! The very same IP address, AGAIN!! (Yeah, not smart enough to know better and not do it again.) The owner and staff of the forum, as well as several members, were aware of this and the staff decided to wait and see what “mongoose” would do. “Mongoose” began sending Makc pm’s stating that Cobra 76 Two ( a moderator at the time, who is now a business member here) was a poor leader and suggested his removal. These attacks were directed at the very moderator who pulled the trigger and killed the troll “Joe.” The request was of course denied and Mongoose went on and only made 2 public posts on the forum. One was a link to a new wraithmaker video. This post contained a link to the video and said “I found this video. I don’t know who this is shooting though.” I was logged in at the forum when “mongoose” made the post and went to watch it. The video had been posted to youtube for all of two minutes by the time I had viewed it. This video was followed by other new videos on youtube within minutes. (Another good one huh?) Within about two weeks of the video link “mongoose” apparently couldn’t contain himself any longer and took a cheap stab at me in an attempt to discredit my word on a non-drum related issue. After that I could not contain myself anymore and I publicly and harshly blew “mongoose’s cover. “Wraithmaker” once again, protested innocence and ignorance and ignorance about “mongoose.” Up until this point I had given Alliance Armament the benefit of the doubt on the computer guy story, but immediately after I blew “mongoose’s” cover, both “wraithmaker” and “mongoose” logged on and went directly to the thread to read it. I believe because they were all in the same building and “mongoose” let the other guys know their cover was blown, again. “Mongoose” was then banned from the forum but “wraithmaker” was not. The videos “mongoose” posted were basically announcing that the wraithmaker drums were starting to ship. Almost immediately following the shipping of the wraithmaker drums, many of the customers made complaints that the drum wouldn’t run any kind of ammo with any consistency, if it would run at all. “Wraithmaker” countered by saying that there was nothing at all wrong with the wraithmaker drum (and still holds to this today) and stated that the fault was in the customers’ Saiga-12. Many of the customers knew this was false due to the fact that they had owned and fired their Saiga-12s for years with no trouble from their stick mags that could compare with the trouble that the wraithmaker was causing. This was all quickly followed by the birth of the “reliability service.” Alliance Armament stated that they would perform this “service” on their first run customers’ Saiga-12 for $50, plus the cost of ammo (now $180). This was not taken well by the members and Saiga-12 owners who knew nothing could be that drastically wrong with their well seasoned Saiga-12s. Many people refused to send their guns, which operated well with all other mags, to Alliance Armament for the “service.” Especially since Alliance Armament wouldn’t tell anyone what modifications were going to be made to their firearms. Some people did however and I have heard mixed reviews about the results. Some people have said that afterwards the wraithmaker preformed well. Others have said that it preformed well with the wraithmaker but not any longer with any of their stick mags. Some people have even said that wraithmaker still would not function well even after the “service.” Others reported that their stick mags fit looser and some that were concerned that so much material had been removed form the bottom of their bolt that it may break/fail. Meanwhile those that refused to allow Alliance Armament to “service” their firearm were still pissed and were complaining about the wraithmaker drum. I can personally testify that the wraithmaker I own would fail almost every round in my test saigas, of which there were many. Only on two occasions was I able to completely empty a drum form the wraithmaker without fail. This was from two different saigas and I was never able to get either to empty a wraithmaker without fail from them again. Afterwards, I made some adjustments to the wraithmaker, which improved it performance considerably, but not even close to the point of being able to honestly say that it was reliable. I believe that I could have, but I obviously had better things to work on.
After much complaining and bitching form the customers and noted opinions about the wraithmaker form some well trusted saiga gurus, Alliance Armament made a video for youtube named “Final Response.” (Alliance Armament has since removed this video.) This video stated that the over all bad function of the wraithmaker and reports of flaws were not true. They also stated that they could not be responsible if people didn’t want the “reliability service” preformed on their guns but also didn’t want to return their drum for a refund. This was statement was very harshly and quickly called total BS as there were a few members of the forum trying to get a refund at the very same time Alliance Armament put up their video. Many people were trying to discuss their wraithmaker problems in Alliance Armament’s business section with no real responses from Alliance Armament themselves. Often when they did post there was some form of a severe spin in stead on anything pertaining (O’Reily would have screamed and cut their mic, lol). People were still trying to get a refund that Alliance Armament had mentioned in their video with no success. I only know of 2 brothers (members here) who were able to get a refund on their wraithmaker drums. This was after Alliance Armament was shown a clause on a federal warrantee by them. Alliance Armament has stated that it was easier and quicker for them to take a call on the phone than to answer or explain publicly on the forum. I personally know that it is easier and quicker to post publicly than to say the same thing individually on the phone over and over. I believe that they liked the phone better because there are a lot of saiga experts to call BS on their answers, had they been made publicly. One of Alliance Armament’s last excuses made before their removal was that the wraithmaker was designed for operation in a full auto Saiga-12. At the time that they stated this, there were only two commonly known Saiga-12s in the country. One built by our Tony Rumore of Tromix and the other by our Tom Cole of Cadiz Gun Works. This full-auto excuse came months in advance of Alliance Armament producing full-auto videos on youtube. When Alliance Armament was asked where the full-auto saiga-12 was that they designed the wraithmaker to work with, they failed to answer. Why all their videos was filmed with a semi-auto Saiga-12, still no answer. When Alliance Armament, who obviously didn’t have a clue (and apparently from their most recent videos still do not) about a full-autos function, why a full auto would make any difference at all they couldn’t give one answer ( a fine example why taking phone calls may be easier.) It was around this time (late ‘07) that it was decided that the Saiga-12 forum did not want Alliance Armament selling the wraithmaker drums through the site and their business member status and business section was removed. Alliance Armament stopped posting on the Saiga-12 forum all together after this.

That pretty much sums up all I can recall. If any other member think of something I missed, please fell free to remind us, as long as it’s entirely true and not a stretch. I do remember they made their first stab at Tromix in their “Final Response” video… and from what I can tell is because he changed his mind about stocking the wraithmaker. Tony had never publicly said one cross word about Alliance Armament or the wraithmaker at this point!
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#2 Bean.223

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 10:36 AM

LOL SNEAKY JACKASSES!!!


BTW, at least AA could afford a cameraman!!!! :haha:

Edited by Bean.223, 29 October 2008 - 10:54 AM.

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#3 Ruffian72

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 10:41 AM

Mike, Thanks for write up. Would take me all day to type that. :smoke:
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#4 TonyRumore

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:16 AM

The "Tromix" issue was over a phone call that I had with Mike Sr, where he wasn't listening to anything I told him.

I had his drum in hand and tested it in a bunch of stock Saiga's and it wouldn't work. So I came back to the shop and started reworking one Saiga in an attempt to get it to work with the AA drum. I made about 5 or so mods and had it hand cycling fairly well with the drum.

AFTER I was done, I called Mike Sr to discuss it with him. That's when he explained to me all the changes that needed to be made to the gun, OF WHICH I TOLD HIM I HAD ALREADY DONE ALL THOSE MODS, except for the mod where he reduced the extractor tension on bolt. That mod, I would never do. Anyway, I then went to test it again, and still, the thing didn't work.

So, I called Mike Sr, again and he started all fucking over saying the exact same shit about what mods I needed to do. So again, I told him all those mods had already been done BEFORE I even talked to him the first time. I must have told him the mods were all done 10 fucking times, and he just kept repeating over and over that I needed to do those mods. Finally he said to send the gun back to him for work....and that was when I just gave up on the whole deal.

Later, I posted the mods that I had done (BEFORE talking to Mike the first time.) That's when AA blew up and accused me of stealing their modification intelligence. However, many board members pointed out, that even the mods that I had done and posted, had already been done by many other veterans on this board.

Later, Mike Jr. posted the Tromix attacks in that video. I feel sorry for Jr. though, since he tossed his dick out on the table based upon the bad info that his dad passed on to him.

Tony Rumore
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#5 Twinsen

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:31 AM

Mike, I know you went through a lot of time to type that all up... but guaranteed you left out some shitty thing that they did. How could anybody remember it all? They've made their company pretty hard to trust.

I gotta get back to gutting pumpkins, but I can't wait to watch your videos.

You've set yourself up to sell a lot more products, Mike. I know most if not all of us trust you.
I might end up being around a lot more.
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#6 Fatboy

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:48 AM

Mike, You are "the man"! I don't believe anyone here questions your integrity in any way and it is sad that you have to defend your character and your product to the rest of the world. It was also sad to hear the stress that was in your voice at the beginning of the video. Your ending of the video where you say that you will stand behind your product is a testament to you. Thanks for being the entrepreneur that you are, as you created a product that did not previously exist, it works and it is reasonably priced.

Edited by Fatboy, 29 October 2008 - 11:49 AM.


#7 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:48 AM

Me too Ruffian72...and in fact I've spent hours and hours in the past typing with two fingers, about all this crap before, only to have most of it deleted or thrown in the trash can to try and keep all the negative bullshit off the forum.

During all that time, I was directly involved in all this crap, even more than anyone except Mike D, Makc, and Mike Sr of Alliance himself, knew. I lost my job here as Mod over their bullshit, when I decided to let my honor and integrity step above my official "Mod duty", and I totally trashed those lying scum for what they are, even though they were a paying "business member". I exposed everything I knew about them (almost) and made damn sure none of my friends would ever buy one of their drums, or their line of BS without hearing the truth about it and how it performed in my own shotguns, as well as the two other respected gentlemen who have owned this drum and it failed them. One is a police officer and the other a Marine, who BTW is a firearms instructor and range officer for the Corps. These people don't lie. I don't lie. I was totally attacked for being so harsh about their drum at first. I was basically told to STFU and all my threads were taken down. Honesty is like creme though and always rises to the top eventually. Soon everyone here saw that I was right after all. All that dishonest crap between them and their minions like joe hilarious, and MONGOOSE....what a cool screen name huh? Perfect for someone who only joined here to try and get revenge against a COBRA who banned his little buddy joe.
Another reason Alliance preferred to take all questions by telephone, IMHO, is so they would have the option of lying through their teeth, the same way they lied to me on the phone about some things. I don't care if they finally got some sense and worked the bugs out of their drum or not. They are still the same people and I would refuse to do business with them no matter what.
This is a public forum and the people who come here to learn about Saigas have the right to know when they are being scammed. It should be pretty obvious when the top names in the Saiga world are all saying the same things about them and their products. The few shills and pip squeeks who have had the balls to come here and speak on their behalves (since they seem to be afraid to actually come and try to defend themselves on this forum and would rather just keep on posting their dishonesty in video form on youtube, and taking stabs at our "little forum" there)...are a very small voice and I give them zero credit myself because I have actually dealt with the problems caused by them here myself, and I KNOW better.

All this is old news to the old school crowd here at saiga-12 and most everyone got tired of hearing it long ago. This reposting of the facts though, will hopefully help a lot of newer people understand a little more about all the BS that has gone on here, and all the stress that has been around here to do with Mike's drums, not even touching on the subject of the long delay in their producton and how that only piled on much more stress with all the new trolls that brought here.

And guess who had the hardest job of all having to deal with all that shit?

Well he's no longer a Mod here....

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#8 BobAsh

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:54 AM

And guess who had the hardest job of all having to deal with all that shit?

Well he's no longer a Mod here....


BVAMP?
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#9 BobAsh

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:54 AM

lol just bustin yer balls, bro.
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#10 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 11:58 AM

Good one Bob! :lolol: :rolleyes: lol

Hey tell that kid of yours happy birthday from Cobra! And get a damn haircut! lol....j/k

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#11 Racegal20

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:23 PM

And guess who had the hardest job of all having to deal with all that shit?

Well he's no longer a Mod here....


BVAMP?


:lolol:
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#12 waltham_41

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:33 PM

I came here right after the wraithmaker BS, luckily in time to find out who was not good people to deal with. I bought a gas piston from them before reading here and they tried to sell me a drum and then I found the saiga forum.

MikeD, the best thing you can do is what you are doing, put out the best product you can, at a reasonable price and treat the customer right. You are right in saying you are done with the videos, the information is there for the consumers to make there mind up now.

Word of mouth, integrity and standing behind your product will sell just as many drums as fancy ads in Shotgun News IMO

#13 Racegal20

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:39 PM

Good one Bob! :lolol: :rolleyes: lol

Hey tell that kid of yours happy birthday from Cobra! And get a damn haircut! lol....j/k


Now ain't that a little like the pot calling the kettle black? :haha:
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#14 read_the_wall

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 12:41 PM

I came trolling to this forum with just one thing in mind......a semi auto shotgun capable of flaming a shitload of
ammo.....
I wanted to make sure before purchasing anything that what I ended up with would be reliable enough to stake
my or others life on. (I believe that is the whole purpose of a firearm)

With that said, I would like to thank each and everyone of you for having the guts to tell the truth about what you
found with all the hours and money spent by you on your testing. I am still waiting for my drums (4 of them), and
have total confidence that they will be exactly what I demand in a weapon accessorie.

I tried to read everything I could find here on this subject and came up with the fact that some know what they are
doing, (tromix, mdarms,cobra,dinzig,ect, ect) and one in particular that could not be trusted at all.....

Thanks for the article Mike, it fills in some holes from what I was able to research....

It is sad that someone has to resort to slamming someone else because they can't produce......

Again, that you all for sharing your knowledge with those of us who don't have the expetise that some of you surly show.
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#15 righttoown

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 01:40 PM

I hope this brings a close to all this and we don't have to here anything else about AA. I think everbody here knows and has seen that Mike D made a far superior product. Anybody that can sell out a second run of 1000 drums in less than 2 weeks or so must be doin something right. :smoke:
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#16 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 02:43 PM

Mike when I first browsed through your post I just read what you said and commented. I was thinking those three vids were links to the same three you already posted (torture testing).

I just now got done watching the new ones.

FIRST and foremost YOU SUCK!.... J/K! :haha: Dude you should have warned me that I needed to cover my keyboard and make sure there was nobody sleeping when I saw that! ROFL!!! I laughed my ass off, and luckily wasn't drinking anything at the time, when you did the bounce test and sent all those rounds flying out of the door stop...LOL! I've done that myself. In fact when I was filming my own little test with an unopened gun and the WM, it puked up the first round in the action while I was inserting it....
Dude...then I almost fell out of my chair laughing so hard at you banging the MD-20 on the table trying to repeat the problem with it. :lolol:
Had to go get Racegal and make her watch it too. Then she busted out laughing so loud it woke up my buddy sleeping in the next room! He works third shift... He'll soon be ordering one of your drums for his new S-12 he bought last week.

Good show man! :super:

One comment I have on what you said about not being able to reproduce the FTEs no matter what you tried. I think I saw exactly what it was the first time I watched their vids. Watch closely how he's holding the gun off his shoulder and even looks like he's pulling it backwards some while limp wristing it in some of those shots. Then watch how firmly he places it against his shoulder while firing with their doorstop / lipstick dispenser. He must have had a case of hamburger shoulder the next day but I think he was doing it on purpose to get it to fail. Anyone who's shot a lot of S-12s, especially bump firing, knows it will FTE if you don't put enough ass behind it.

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#17 Dancing Bear

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 03:25 PM

I want to point out that in Tony's and Cobra's post you see that it is not just the AA drum that is the problem, but AA's business practices!

I was also privy to some emails that convinced me that these guys were not only poor designers and business people, but perhaps a few sandwiches shy of a picnic!
NOTICE: This post is not for use by anyone in TN. View at your own risk!

#18 ML Roak

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 03:54 PM

FWIW,
Mike, you can spend a lot of time and effort arguing with idiots, even if your right (which I believe you are) AA is still managing to fuck with your life and your personal time by you responding to them. There is enough info out there for people to make an informed decision at this point. Show them where to stick it by building and shipping drums, lots of drums. Each drum you sell takes one away from them. Let them do their death roll alone. If you stand too close to someone who is flinging shit you will get covered in shit yourself, move forward and make happy customers, ignore the turd flingers and move on.
Besides, the time spent making videos could have been spent assembling my drums :super:
See ya,
ML Roak

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#19 WHITE 3 GOLF

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:09 PM

Hey MikeD, great product by the way. I love every 20 rounds coming out of that motherfucker in my S-17. That shit is the best. By the way I like the fact that you leave your comment section on youtube open for people to leave cooments. I wonder why the others leave that function out, huuummm?
"Where Oh Where are you tonight, why did you leave me here all alone, I search the world over and I thought I'd found true love, you met another and PFFFT you was gone."

#20 1911

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 04:52 PM

Congratulations again on a fantastic product; but more than that, thank you for your honesty, integrity, forthrightness, honor, incorruptibility, principles, rectitude, sincerity, straightforwardness and virtue. (use your dictionary guys :) )

To those who should not be named again, a pox on you for displaying the antonym or everything said about Mike D.

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http://transsylvania...their-guns.html

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"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one
who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve
it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are
inevitably ruined.

#21 mrwilson

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 05:15 PM

ML Roak is right. Don't let them bait you. Just ignore them. Your product is superior and it speaks for itself.

#22 acer_saiga308

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 06:01 PM

Heheheeee, love the jab near the end of the last video! :lolol: :lolol:
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#23 elvis christ

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 06:23 PM

Nice videos.

Quick question: Are the drums from the first run, the last 15% or whatever, being shipped with the new spring installed and the drum body mod, or will those also have to be sent back, if that option is elected?

If my drum doesn't come with a new spring installed, I won't be sending it back, I'll take care of it myself, it's no big deal. I was just curious if the last batch of 1st run drums would have the spring installed or not.

Patiently waiting- _jeff
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#24 headshot

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 06:24 PM

Good vids mike!

How'd you get billy bob thornton to do them?

J/k, man.

#25 bigdaddyrandall

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 06:27 PM

:haha: Hey mike quit screwing with A,A, and get the second round of drums made and shipped,the consumer will make the choice of who's they want. And it looks like from what i have seen you don't have anything to worry about, the vids are great keep up the good work, NOW GET BUSY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#26 Thumbhole

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:01 PM

Nice videos.

Quick question: Are the drums from the first run, the last 15% or whatever, being shipped with the new spring installed and the drum body mod, or will those also have to be sent back, if that option is elected?

If my drum doesn't come with a new spring installed, I won't be sending it back, I'll take care of it myself, it's no big deal. I was just curious if the last batch of 1st run drums would have the spring installed or not.

Patiently waiting- _jeff


When you send it back, he wont replace the spring, he will be doing other mods. I'm not even sure he's going to offer the spring if he is offering a better solution. Either way, I wouldn't worry about it, Mikes gonna square you away.
The preceding post is a work of fiction.

#27 TonyRumore

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:29 PM

Mike,

Just a helpful tip here. If you do another video, don't wear a white shirt, wear something dark and toss in some additional light from the front. With a white shirt, your camera picks that up and darkens the shot so we can't see dark objects in front of you.

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#28 Juggernaut

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 07:37 PM

Mike,

Just a helpful tip here. If you do another video, don't wear a white shirt, wear something dark and toss in some additional light from the front. With a white shirt, your camera picks that up and darkens the shot so we can't see dark objects in front of you.

Tony

Damn Tony, Is there anything you DON'T Know....

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It is not in defeating your enemies; It's about the strategy of killing the evil of one man to give life to ten thousand" ~Yagyu Munenori

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#29 6500rpm

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 08:27 PM

Once again, QUALITY speaks for itself.....you really didn't have to post all this but I guess it's good for the noobs. The guys at C&S Metal really got a kick out of the beta. Lots of good folks got your back, but the product is the end game now that it's out.

#30 GySgt New River

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Posted 29 October 2008 - 09:37 PM

MikeD,

Nice to see you sticking with your plan. Honest, hard working men like you will prevail. Wraithfaker.....dare I even say will get whats coming to them. We both have been ROUNDS on this issue and I'm proud to say YOU have lived up to your word, YOU kept everyone updated, YOU followed through on what you said you were going to do.....THEY DID NOT.

One thing I did want to mention....I know it's OK to beat your meat, but beating your drum...much less someone elses??!! Well thats just plain dirty!! :eek: :lolol:

Edited by MCASgt New River, 30 October 2008 - 11:14 AM.

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of 'up to and including their life.'-That is Honor

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