ForGreatJustice 1 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Now that Tromix has their delightful new product on the market, now might be a good time for a discussion about the advantages/disadvantages of short barrelled shotguns. We all know they're "cool", but I've never read or heard much from those who actually use these specialized weapons in the field. Are there any tradeoffs for their close quarters manuverability? Are they less accurate, or require more choking? How accurate are they with slugs? Muzzle blast intolerable? Anyone? Bueler? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RDSWriter 5 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 (edited) Not sure about tactically other than they are much easier to conceal and manuver in tight places... and you get a much broader pattern. Just like a rifle, you are going to sacrifice some velocity and accuracy... but in a CQB environment this isn't the most important issue - especially with a shotgun. On the statutory front... the best thing is that 922r doesn't apply to NFA firearms - so you don't need to use any US parts. Edited January 16, 2005 by RDSWriter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 The main reason that short barreled shotguns have never been very popular is due to the reduction in magazine capacity when the barrel is cut down on a tube fed gun. A short barreled magazine fed gun has really never been on the market. I don't know of any SPAS-15's or USAS-12's that were cut down and I doubt anyone is going to do one today based upon their current cost. There were some short barreled street sweepers made, but again, they do not have a quickly detachable magazine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 (edited) Some background info on 12 gauge shotguns in general: -12 gauge shells generally produce their peak velocities when fired form an 18-20 inch barrel. Anything over that is for looks. Anything under that is for mobility. -The biggest reason that people can shoot more accurately at longer ranges with a longer barrel has more to do with an increased sight radius than anything else. This is also because buck shot and rifled slugs do not need to be spin stabilized. -Shotguns exhibit the greatest accuracy with a rifled slug using a highly polished cylinder bore or improved cylinder. -Buckshot is most effective (tighter patterns and better balistic properties) when fired through a smooth barrel with either an Improved cylinder or modified choke. Anything tigher than that will deform the pellets too much, causing them not to fly as straight and disperse faster. -None of this applies to: birdshot, steel shot, or sabot slugs (as far as I know) With the advent of the saiga 12, and the other magazine fed semi-autos that will no doubt be coming along shortly, and the expiration of the AWB, tactical shotguns are going to become more useful. This is especially true regarding CQB, where velocity loss is negligable, and accuracy "potential" should be no different, but where maneuverability is at a premium. In short, I'd say: stick with an 18 inch barrel, choose your choke depending on application, and if you need it to be more maneuverable/easily stored, get a sturdy collapsable or folding stock. Thanks for listening. All comments are welcomed and appreciated. (spelling) Edited January 16, 2005 by Tokageko Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 I will chrono a 12" saiga side by side with a 22" version and will post the results shortly. However, a friend of mine has done this in the past with other SBS' and he is telling me that there is VERY little velocity gain/loss between the two. Of course I never believe shit unless I actually test it myself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Tony, did I ever say that you are my hero? All of my information has come from reloading manuals and other people's research on balistics. If I am wrong about the velocity loss, it would make sense: less drag from a smooth bored barrel than from a rifled barrel. I eagerly await your results. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 No, actually I agree with all of your comments, however I have "heard" (which doesn't mean shit) that even though the velocity peaks at 19", there is actually very little gain past 12" or so. I don't know for sure, but I will certainly find out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rowdy1124 0 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 i love this guy.... maybe we should make him our new leader? Tony, care to start a cult, cause I'd shave my head and drink the kool-aid... ~Rowdy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 I am sorry Rowdy.....but we would be drinking beer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
krom32117 0 Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 yes we drink the holy brew while our leader Tony reads passages to us from the Saiga manual lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted January 17, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 So long as I don't have to ride any comets, or lose the family jewels, that's cool with me. Now if only I could sell my .45, I'd have enough to finance the SBS project. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 No, actually I agree with all of your comments, however I have "heard" (which doesn't mean shit) that even though the velocity peaks at 19", there is actually very little gain past 12" or so. I don't know for sure, but I will certainly find out. I have no experience to add to this, but consider this. "Little Skeeters" (I think Browning bought the company and continues to sell them) are nothing more than chamber length inserts that allow you to fire sub guage out of a larger guage shotty. So, a 12 can fire 16,20,28 and .410 guages. You can get a 20 to fire 28 and .410 ... you get the drift. They are reported to break birds on the skeet field just fine (remember, skeet = pretty close and wide open choke). They won't work an auto, but that's not too surprising. Way I see it, shell goes off, and wad leaves the hull, then all of the gas can escape around the base of the wad!!! This would say that you get a significant amount of energy into the shot by the time it leaves the shell!!! Yea, I'm guessing that the ballistics will be just fine on this. I too am looking foward to your results. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 I am no expert but at "the Range" three gun match on Saturday my full chock Saiga would knock over all of the heavy steel targets with 7 1/2 bird shot low price Walmart stuff with no problem. Short barrel shotguns would have to hit those targets more then once with heaver shot in order to knock them down. So I believe the bottom line is if you get way more punch leave your 22 inch barrel alone. Of course I have no Idea what choke they used if any other poeple used. I like to keep it simple http://users.gloryroad.net/~idpa/ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted January 18, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 If I get the funds together for the project, I'll have the short barrel threaded for choke. But #7 isn't very heavy....I can't imagine using it in a combat context. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Caspian 32 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 i did some chrono testing with 3 different brands of ammo on about 5 different barrel lengths ranging from 28" to 7". I have the data at work and will post it when i get there tomorrow (if they have the internet fixed). i remember the data reflecting what Tony said. there isn't a significant velocity loss down to 12". I beleive velocity took it's biggest hit from 12" down to 7", but the velocity was still substantial enough to do the job. caspian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
LongIslandsaiga 0 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 what would happen if you fired a 12 guage shell thru a 12 guage flaregun (3 or 4 inch barrel)....or for that matter 12 gauge flares thru a shotgun. Im curious but not stupid Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Caspian 32 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 the flare guns aren't built to withstand the pressures created by the 12 gauge round. if you did it, we would be calling you lefty. i don't think anything would happen if you went the other way around and fired a flare through a shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hardcorps1775 1 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 back in the day, my dept used a seized dbl barrelled sawed off 12ga as an entry gun. we later switched to a short barrelled 870 for hinges and locks, then to the benelli. at short cqb ranges (10m?) there was negligible diff between a 14" barrel and an 18" barrel, maybe just a slightly bigger pattern at 30 feet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tokageko 8 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 Wanted to add something on the subject of mobility/maneuverability: Quick target acquisition with any given shotgun seems to have less to do with length (barrel, overall, etc.) than with weight and balance point. Those are tied together of course, but balance is more important. I've used 28" shotguns that pointed effortlessly. I've also used 18" shotguns that felt more akin to a BAR (the military version that is), or a thompson. In short, finding a shotgun you can carry comfortably and point easily is of the utmost importance, no matter what you're using the shotgun for. A note on recoil: I have heard the complaint that lighter guns tend to kick harder. I can find no scientific basis for denying this. However, I do believe (in absence of concrete data) that a quality recoil pad and the correct length/fit stock is much more important than weight in determining how well one deals with recoil. Not to discount technique, it does make a differance, but it requires more practice than most people get in order to develop really good technique. As far as engagement distance.... I can just hear someone (probably one of my friends) complaining that if the barrel of your shotgun is too long, you won't be able to deal with attackers in very close quarters (as might happen while clearing a house). To them, I say: Bayonet lug. That's what it was designed for: to allow one to deal with adversaries too close to shoot. Of course, this requires some other training on the use of the shotgun as a melee weapon, but you get the point and I'm sure your enemy will also (pun intended). That's all for now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted January 18, 2005 Report Share Posted January 18, 2005 This is an Ithaca 37 I did as an SBS about a year ago (13" with rifle sights, Choate Folder, Stakeout fore arm). Preceived recoil is about the same as my 20" Ithaca Riot Gun (7 shot). The muzzle blast is closer to the shooters face and that does take some getting use to. With slugs, I can keep 'em on a paper plate out to about 50 yds or so. The rifle sights are o.k.; would prefer ghost rings, but these do alright. Buckshot holds around 18" diameter at 20 yds. For fun, I occassionally run Aguila mini shells through it. It'll hold 8 + 1 of the minis and is hell on pidgeons at around 12 -15 yds (#7.5 shot). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted January 19, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 That Ithaca has pretty much the characteristics one would want out of a fighting shotgun. What'ts the choke on it....is it CYL now that you've cut the barrel back? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 I was not suggesting that some one use 7 1/2 shells for combat I was illistrating the point that my full choke 22 inch Saiga had more punch with light shot then shorter barrel with heaver shot. That is a good reason to leave the barrel alone Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Caspian 32 Posted January 19, 2005 Report Share Posted January 19, 2005 Here's the chrono results using a 12 break open shotgun with various ammos and barrel lengths: Aguila Winchester 3" Remington 2 3/4" 31" 1022 1725 1557 25" 1137 1685 1498 19" 828 1542 1411 13" 1139 1433 1324 7" 1024 1134 1131 Note: Only one shot was used for each reading. It would have been better to use an average of 5 shots, but i was limited on ammo from the same lot. Also, you will see that the Aguila fired from the 19" barrel has a lower velocity than the barrel lengths on either side of it. I am guessing this is a factor if QA/QC on Aguilas part. Basically, it was a dud round. Caspian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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