Juano11 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Hello all, I've got some questions about the SAIGA-12 that I'm hoping you more seasoned guys can help me with. I'm interested in a semi-auto shotgun to have for home protection. I'm a physician and have occasional hospital call that keeps me away from home for the night. My wife is kind of an anxious type (she locks the door to the car when I get out to go into our local convenience store, even in our nice little neighborhood). She told me recently that she sometimes takes a large kitchen knife to bed with her when she knows that I'm not going to be home. We live in a fairly crime-free area (no place is completely free of crime), but her anxiety is obvious. Which makes me a little sad, she should feel safe in her home, regardless of whether I am there or not. I currently own an old SKS and a Makarov 380, but neither is in the house. My father kept them when I went to college and I just never got them back. Regardless, I'm not even sure that my wife has ever fired a gun, so even after some practice, I'd be worried that she may not be as accurate as necessary with either of those weapons. So I thought that a multi round shotgun might fit the bill. I came across the Saiga-12 on Weaponology and it piqued my interest. So, on to the questions: 1. Do you think that the Saiga-12 is a good option for home protection? 2. I've read that semi-auto shotguns are "not as reliable" as pump action. Do you think that the Saiga-12 is reliable enough that a person that is generally unfamiliar with guns would be able to pick it up and be confident that it will work as intended? 3. Can a fairly small woman handle this gun (with some practice, of course) or will it simply be too much for her? 4. What Saiga model should I consider? 5. What are other options that I should consider for the situation I have described? Other brands of shotguns? Other types of firearms? 6. If I were to go with a particular weapon, what modifications would you suggest to make it easy to handle and give my wife the best chance of using it successfully? Many thanks in advance for your time and help. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nalioth 405 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 If your wife has no experience firing a gun, I'd start with something simple. The Saiga 12 is not simple to operate, nor will the recoil be acceptable to new shooters, imho. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
adavid02 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 mossberg 500 . great HD weapon. Simple and reliable and half the price Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hallboss 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) mossberg 500 . great HD weapon. Simple and reliable and half the price Completely agree. For HD a pump shot gun is a great choice, but be aware even with managed recoil loads a shotgun of any kind especially a pump has a lot of recoil. Without getting into the life long argument of what is the best HD round (birdshot, #4, buckshot or slug), a shotgun is a high recoil firearm. Additionally, weilding a shotgun is (for lack of a better more suitable word) difficult without consistent, constant training and it is not a tool for every job type gun. You also might want to consider a couple "worst case" scenarios, which this is why I have two HD guns. 1) The subject in your house gets the gun from you or before you....if you have two, then you do not have to force "hand to hand" confrontation. You just have to get to the other gun. 2) IMHO, this is the worst...You are either not there or "unavailable" and your wife is woken up to a 6' 200lb assailant on top of her. Do you think she will be able to weild a 3' shotgun around and get a shot off? No, but if there is a handgun in her nightstand drawer/under her/your pillow or whatever she will be able to get to it and safely discharge the gun. The above reasons are why I have two HD guns, a mossy 590 and an XD-40, which is in my wifes nightstand. Another thing I tell my wife which is a little controversial to some people, but it keeps me safe and her out of furthering a confrontation. If she reasonably thinks someone is in the house and they made it to the bedroom door, is to fire one round into the carpet (at an angle away from her. We are the only people in the house-no kids). Most dirtbags will not stick around to see how good a shot you are. This will accomplish two things, she does not have to sit there scared and wait until the subject is close enough to risk a close encounter and I do not have to worry about coming home early from a trip or coming home late at night and getting shot as I walk through the bedroom door. This is my advice, based on experience and years of LE training. Edited October 31, 2008 by hallboss Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bayonet lug 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 The shotgun is too BIG and loud for HD. For her glock 17. For you glock 20(not with watered down FBI loads, Buffalo bore is good). just my .02 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 My bride's first self-defense weapon was a S&W model 36 (I think, 5 rounds) with 3" barrel in .38 Special loaded with standard rounds for practice and +P when carried. It was equipped with a Crimson Trace Laser Grip and she got quite comfortable with it. She graduated to a .45 ACP Government Model a few years later and felt quite confident. Of course all those have long since been sold or donated. Just posted for educational purposes of what worked for her when we lived under a Constitutional Government. If you want to equip her for defense she will have to practice regardless of whether it is a pistol, shotgun, or a nifty pistol caliber carbine (hint, hint). 1911 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Doc S 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) If you're intent on a shotgun for both of you in a home defence situation, I'd suggest a pump in 20 gauge. A Mossberg 500 should be fine and it's economic as well. If you are considering a handgun for her, I would start with a revolver. I know many here are suggesting a semi-auto, but I would suggest simplicity and reliability. Many women have difficulty charging the slide. I've heard the arguement that she can just have it "cocked and locked" in the drawer, but I would counter that if there were a failure to fire or she needed to clear the weapon, she will need to charge or rack the slide to use it. Revolvers are simple and reliable (IMHO, just what's needed in a stressful situation). Caliber is another thing to consider. You might be fine with a 45 ACP, but your wife may not be... If you have friends or a shooting range that rents firearms, I would suggest you try a few before making any decisions... If you're in the San Antonio area, I'd be happt to take you and your wife to the range. My wife has a diminutive .32 S&W Long. It wouldn't be my choice in a defense weapon (I carry a .45ACP), but she fires it well and isn't afraid of it. She feels comfortable shooting it and knows how it functions. She trusts it... I've tried to convince her in carrying something else, but she likes that revolver and can shoot it accurately. Just my .02 cents worth. God Bless, Doc S Edited October 31, 2008 by Doc S Quote Link to post Share on other sites
btr 15 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 It would be a good idea to borrow or rent a bunch of different guns, and let her try them. She can tell you what she likes the best. Most good gun ranges have rental guns- she can try some revolvers, semi-autos, and so on- guns of different sizes and calibers, and pick out what works best for her. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 The SAIGA is fine for home defense. The Kalashnikov action is simple and easy. There is nothing easier than "Push this lever down, pull this thingy back then pull the trigger" Unless you hand her a revolver. I taught my wife how to use an AK when we met. The Saiga is the same. Light Law Enforcement loads work just fine by the way. So if you have a Saiga then teach her to use it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Franky 2 Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Sounds like your new at this game. Anyway for a shotgun go w/ the Mossberg 590A1 and for a handgun I would suggest a S&W 686 stainless. The handgun is just meant to buy some time till you get to the shotty. IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chevymann 13 Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Saiga S-12 was on Weaponology? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigjimcalhoun 0 Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 I agree with the posters above that say shotgun + handgun. A shotgun is great if you are in a room and defending it, but if you need to go no another room and get a young child or two, the shotgun is a little large for a woman to handle and shoot with one hand and therefore, a pistol is better. We bought my wife a 5 shot Taurus revolver with a 2" barrel that would shoot either .38 special or .357. We sold it because neither one of us could consistently hit a 8.5x11 target 10 feet away. We borrowed a Glock 26 (9mm subcompact) from someone this weekend and are going to have her shoot it. I think the Saiga is a little more complicated than a pump as it has a magazine that not everyone keeps attached while storing, is more prone to theft, etc. Mossbegs can be found for $250 on sale and if it gets stolen from a bedroom, that is sad, but it is not like $650 was stolen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Start off with a decent Tazer. If you come home and don't get zapped; Think about a HD Firearm... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hallboss 1 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Start off with a decent Tazer. If you come home and don't get zapped; Think about a HD Firearm... LOL...problem is guns will be declared evil in the next two months. By then they will be going after BB guns Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted November 2, 2008 Report Share Posted November 2, 2008 Answers to "Lots of Newb questions" (my own humble opinions only, of course): Q1. Do you think that the Saiga-12 is a good option for home protection? A1. It is, especially if your home is either large enough or well-secured enough so that you will detect forced entry and have time to load the weapon. If you leave the magazine in the weapon, the top shell tends to become deformed, preventing it from feeding when you attempt to charge the weapon. This problem can be avoided by using the Russian-made steel shells instead of the more "normal" plastic shells. Q2. I've read that semi-auto shotguns are "not as reliable" as pump action. Do you think that the Saiga-12 is reliable enough that a person that is generally unfamiliar with guns would be able to pick it up and be confident that it will work as intended? A2. Reliability is not much of an issue. The only problems I've had with mine were related to ammunition. Use the ammunition you intend to use for home defense to practice with the firearm, and if it feeds reliably and your wife is comfortable with the recoil, you're set. The Saiga-12 uses an action almost identical to that of the AK-47, which is notoriously reliable. As to someone who is unfamiliar with firearms picking it up and using it, that is not recommended; if the gun is kept at home she should be familiarized with it, if for no other reason than that she should be able to clear any firearm she might need to handle. Since the weapon is being purchased largely for her to use, it would be wise for her to practice with it enough so that she is both familiar and comfortable with the weapon's operation. Q3. Can a fairly small woman handle this gun (with some practice, of course) or will it simply be too much for her? A3. It depends on the woman. If she is slender, has an unusually low pain threshold, simply isn't at all muscular, or jumps at loud noises, this probably is not the gun for her. A saiga-20 or saiga-410 with a muzzle break (which helps to reduce recoil) might be more in order. The 12 does kick pretty hard, even with reduced-recoil loads. Q4. What Saiga model should I consider? A4. If you do decide on a Saiga-12 and the wife can handle it, the IZ-109 with a 19" barrel and threaded muzzle would be best; you can order a muzzle break that will fit the factory threads (at least two companies of good repute make them right here in the US), and the relatively short barrel makes it more practical for indoor use than the 24" barrel model. Also on offer are versions in .410 and 20-gauge. Rifles are offered in .308 Winchester, .223 Remington, and 7.62x39. The .223 and 7.62x39 both offer low recoil (ten-year-old African kids can handle the x39, your wife should be fine ), which can be further reduced with a muzzle break. The .308 is way overpowered and offers heftier recoil. Q5. What are other options that I should consider for the situation I have described? Other brands of shotguns? Other types of firearms? A5. From your description, it sounds like your wife is a bit on the nervous side; and since you're a physician, you might have a boatload of expendable income. If both of these things are true (and I certainly am not trying to state that they are ), and such things are legal in your state, a suppressed pistol might be in order. Both H&K and Sig Sauer produce pistols chambered in .45ACP which come from the factory with a threaded barrel (these pistols are generally in the $900-$2000 range new, depending on the pistol and the dealer). A .45 caliber suppressor should run $400-$800 (although if you like, you can find more expensive ones), plus the $200 NFA tax. In my experience, a glock 19 in 9mm offers recoil comparable to a Sig in .45ACP, likely because the glock is made largely of plastic and weighs very little, and the Sig is mostly steel. .45ACP is a subsonic round, and suppressed coming out of a Sig or H&K can be very quiet (my only personal experience was with a Sig suppressed with a Yankee Hill Machine suppressor, and it was about as loud as a BB gun). If you're willing and able to spend $1500-$3000 on a home defense weapon it could be an excellent solution, providing accuracy, manageable recoil and lethality, all without damaging anyone's hearing. Q6. If I were to go with a particular weapon, what modifications would you suggest to make it easy to handle and give my wife the best chance of using it successfully? A6. If you choose to purchase the saiga-12, a muzzle break as mentioned above is a must for a smaller person. If you go with another weapon in the Saiga family, a muzzle break is less necessary (the .308 rifle is not recommended for indoor use ). A high-capacity magazine for the Saiga-12 (10-round magazines are readily available, and quality 20-round drums are produced by MD Arms) is probably not necessary, but certainly can't hurt. You can purchase a one-size-fits-all recoil pad that slips over the butt stock; my local range carries them for $15. I have seen a few members who have magazine wells installed in their weapons, although I do not know where they can be obtained or installed. The magazine well allows the magazine to be inserted directly into the weapon with the bolt closed with ease, whereas the factory well requires you to "rock and lock" the mag, which is more difficult, and nearly impossible on a closed bolt. Suppose that you want to go all-out, a number of companies offer a conversion service, in which the weapon is converted to a normal AK configuration, with a pistol grip and butt stock. This is expensive, and the industry leader is booked solid for the foreseeable future; but damn his work is fantastic! If you choose to purchase a pistol, a laser sight might be helpful for an inexperienced shooter. Both Lasergrip (just what it sounds like-it is a plastic or rubber, can't remember which, grip with a laser built in) and Lasermax (which makes replacement guide posts for many pistols; these lasers do not need to be sighted in because they are installed parallel to the barrel, replacing the post that the recoil spring rides on) make excellent laser solutions. Being able to track a red dot which tells you exactly where the weapon is aimed, and not needing to close an eye in order to do so, can both be great boons, especially to an inexperienced shooter. I hope those answers are of some help to you. There are plenty of board members who doubtless will be glad to answer any Saiga- or firearm-related question you'd like to ask, and many of them know a great deal more than me! Whatever brand of intruder repellent you select, I hope neither you nor the wife are ever forced to use it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
btr 15 Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 I wanted to say, a GOOD home security systems sounds like a very good idea, if you don't have one already. A gun won't do you any good if you don't know someone is in the house! People feel comfortable with different firearms, only your wife will know what she likes best, and only after she tries different types/models. A handguns is a good idea, as it is harder grab out of someone's hand, I think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
seadate 0 Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Check out the Taurus Judge. Long 5-chamber revolver allows you to shoot either .410 or .45 long colt rounds. Keep mine loaded with .410 6 shot for the first two rounds, hollow point .45 next two rounds, hollow point slug last round. That should take care of most anything. Bear in mind, .410 6-shot shells may not be lethal (depending on distance) but will hurt and scare the crap out of anything. http://www.taurususa.com/video/taurus-theJudge-video.cfm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakko 10 Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Shand's advice is sound. The Saiga isn't a great choice for a new shooter. Perhaps in 20 gauge, but not in 12. I bought my girl a Taurus 85 and she's good with it. Dependable, no safeties to fiddle fuck around with, and powerful enough to do what it needs to do. Keep in mind overpenetration. If you have kids, you don't want rounds that miss the attacker, go through the sheetrock, and kill your kid. The Taurus Judge (a revolver that shoots .410 shells) is an option. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
seadate 0 Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 FYI....you do not need a laser with the Tarus Judge shooting .410 rounds. At the range the .410 shells peppered the entire target at distances from 4-8 meters! MD-20 is much more fun though! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juano11 0 Posted November 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 Thanks to everyone for their help, especially Shandlanos for taking the time to post such a comprehensive response. It sounds as though the Saiga-12 will be a bit too much for her... Looks like a lengthy trip to our local gun range is in order...I'm certainly not complaining! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RollingThunder 0 Posted November 8, 2008 Report Share Posted November 8, 2008 I think you ought to get as many Saigas as you can lay your hands on. Especially with the new chief you will get there in Washington. He seems like a gun grabber to me. With regards to using it for HD I am convinced that training is more important than what guns you use. The S-12 might be complicated for a complete beginner. But I would like to compare it with driving a car. Without proper training it is both difficult and dangerous. Would you like your loved ones drive a car with no training? Guess not. Stock up on as many Saigas as you can afford and get a few Glocks or 1911 (or whatever handgun you like) to complement. The S-12 is reliable if you you feed it with the correct ammo. So testing your ammo is mandatory before putting it into action. If I was to use it for greeting unexpected visitors I would like 8 rds of buckshot #0 in it. The top round deformation can be avoided by a simple mag modification (follow this link for a description). This is for the prolonged storage you get with HD guns. Good luck and don't forget to test and practice! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jor-el 0 Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 I for one am not a fan of the pump shotgun for untrained shooters. It is an illusion to believe the shot spread is a substitute for skill. A pump shotgun is a two hand affair and it is known to have short-stroking issues under stress even with trained personnel. Just try reloading one quickly. A Saiga 12 for HD? With a proper class and regular practice in shooting and reloading, it's no worse than any other longarm AFAIK. A revolver is a lot more forgiving and combined with some flashlight technique is as good as it gets. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snakyjake 0 Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Q4. What Saiga model should I consider? A4. If you do decide on a Saiga-12 and the wife can handle it, the IZ-109 with a 19" barrel and threaded muzzle would be best; you can order a muzzle break that will fit the factory threads (at least two companies of good repute make them right here in the US), and the relatively short barrel makes it more practical for indoor use than the 24" barrel model. Also on offer are versions in .410 and 20-gauge. Rifles are offered in .308 Winchester, .223 Remington, and 7.62x39. The .223 and 7.62x39 both offer low recoil (ten-year-old African kids can handle the x39, your wife should be fine ), which can be further reduced with a muzzle break. The .308 is way overpowered and offers heftier recoil. Why the IZ-109, not the IZ-108? Thanks, Jake Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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