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M1a vs Saiga- Range study


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The other day I was looking at this tread

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=30865

 

And it got me to thinking. If my saiga could shoot that good, why do I have an m1a?

So I decided to do a little study at the range. I had mixed feelings about the possibilities, because if the

saiga really did outshoot the m1a I'd be really tempted to sell that thing. But I do love that gun *tear*.

 

Anyway, here's the setup.

 

Range- Ocmulgee WMA rifle range

distance- 50 yds- shooting from a bench, propping gun on the range bag.

Except the last round, shooting from standing position.

 

I thought that as long as the setup was consistent between the two guns, it wouldn't matter too much if there

were sandbags, etc.

 

Gun #1: Saiga 308, 16.5" barrel, all stock.

 

Gun #2: Springfield M1a scout squad, 18" barrel, all stock.

post-4322-1225558223_thumb.jpg

 

Ammo: varies between South African surplus and Federal American Eagle 150 gr fmjbt (red box)

 

here's the results

First- 4 rounds each of SA from the bench

post-4322-1225558284_thumb.jpg

Saiga

post-4322-1225558295_thumb.jpg

M1a

 

Second- 4 rounds each of Federal

post-4322-1225558307_thumb.jpg

Saiga

post-4322-1225558335_thumb.jpg

M1a

 

Third- 6 rounds each of Federal- still on the bench

post-4322-1225558317_thumb.jpg

Saiga

post-4322-1225558345_thumb.jpg

M1a

 

Last- 6 rounds each of SA- standing

post-4322-1225558358_thumb.jpg

M1a

post-4322-1225558368_thumb.jpg

Saiga

 

Targets are in the order I shot them. I'm not sure why i did the m1a first on the last round. I'm also not sure where that 7th shot came from. It may have come from me, but i only shot six. My friend was shooting his glock at 50 yards and only hit his target twice, so one of those may have come from him. i think the results still speak.

 

So, how about it? It sure seems like the saiga outperformed the m1a. Did I miss something?

I sure love the trigger and the sights of the m1a compared to the saiga. Unfortunately, that didn't seem to translate into results in my opinion.

 

Any and all comments accepted and encouraged.

 

thanks,

j

Edited by appalacious
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I've had the same thoghts myself. I don't currently have an M1-A, but have owned one previously. I do own an 16.5" Saiga .308. I would like to quote Art Luppino. Mr Luppino has a section on the M14 firing line forum in "THE PROSHOP". http://www.m14tfl.com/upload/index.php He is a respected smith for M14 and M1a work. This was posted by Mr. Luppino;

 

How accurate can you expect your M1A to shoot? It has been my observation that the Standard M1A equipped with a GI chrome lined barrel will produce 10 shot slow fire groups at 100 yds. between 3 to 5 inches, using other than match/hand loaded ammunition. If you are interested in determining the accuracy of your M1A, invest in a box of Federal Match ammo and fire two ten shot slow fire groups. This will provide you the information and a starting standard to determine if you want to invest further to improve the rifle.

 

Here is where it gets sticky. It is also my opinion, that adding a Unitized Gas Cylinder, a matched Flash suppressor and NM front and rear sights do very little to improve accuracy, if any at all, certainly not enough to justify the expense.

 

The NM sights are no different than the standard sights, except in dimensions, and provide half value for elevation and windage. You may like them better, and that is a plus, but as far as the rifle is concerned they add nothing. The FS and Unitized GS will provide some help, ONLY if they are installed on the barrel properly. This can be said for the standard FG and GS also.

 

My point is: There is no way to sneak up on making your rifle more accurate by adding the things stated above that can justify the cost. Add a trigger job and tightening the rear sight up and you will have more success than buying matched parts and adding them to the rifle. This is somewhat like adding Mud Flappers and a Foxtail to your Truck in hopes it will go faster.

 

Short of replacing the barrel and having someone like Ted or Warbird work it over for you , I suggest you spend you cash on quality ammunition.

 

Just to get the New Year off on the wrong foot: It is amazing how many write into the Forum giving accuracy accounts of non Matched M1a's they own. How fortunate they are.

 

How many times people came into my California shop and told how their M1A shot MOA,["BUT"], they needed such and such. It was my practice to reply to them in a friendly manner." I'll bet you $500, and pay for the ammo, and you can shoot using anything to hold the rifle you like, for every MOA five shot group you win, every failure you owe me $200, never had a taker". Talkers ain't Takers. Art End of quote.

 

I'm sure that there are M1As shooting better than this and maybe some doing worse. This man seems to command alot of respect on a forum that is dedicated to M14s and M1As. I tend to think that he may know what he's talking about.

My Saiga will do 3.5" 8 round groups at 100 yards with Remington Core-Lokt 150 gr. factory ammo. Brown Bear will open up the groups considerably. That's probably not a surprise. I am working on a reload using 165 gr. Sierras that shows promise, but needs more work.

All that said, You may want to keep the M1A anyway. They are very cool rifles and mags are easily available, etc. etc.

However, from a standpoint of putting accurate fire downrange, I'm thinking that my Saiga will be all that I need.

vorpal

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Am I to believe that your M1A puts up 5 inch groups at 50 yards? That's 10MOA, if I estimated that right. You need to stop cleaning your bore with barbed wire. :huh:

 

My FAL shoots 2MOA with surplus ammo with me behind the trigger. I patterned 3MOA-3.5MOA by switching between 3 different loadings of .308 in that FAL, 2 NATO 145/150ish grain bullets, and some S&B 180 grains. I'm pretty sure an M1A can outshoot that gun of mine.

 

 

Never try to find out how "accurate" a rifle is using iron sights, there is wayyyy too much human error involved. Try this again with scopes, you'll see results you can trust. However, the way you are shooting now, it seems you shoot your Saiga better than you shoot your M1A, which is sorta shocking considering how much better the sights are on the M1A. I'd say hold off on any judgments on accuracy; personal taste or 'shootability' is your say though.

Edited by Twinsen
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yeah, the front post on both guns seemed to cover about 12-15 moa on the target. maybe the m1a was a little less than that. i'm amazed i shot that well to tell you the truth. the apertures on the m1a looked better in the sight picture, but didn't translate to better accuracy.

 

I hear you on the scope issue, but accuracy with iron sights is also pretty important to me. i didn't have the gun resting on the bench, just propped against a bag. the buttstock was in my shoulder.

 

j

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my m1a gets much better groups then that at 100 yards and i use ironsights. I think your barrel is shot?

maybe?

but it only has about 4 mags through it. and it has a mirror shine.

probably has more to do with me than the gun.

 

i'm toying with the idea of scoping the guns and redoing the test.

 

j

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my m1a gets much better groups then that at 100 yards and i use ironsights. I think your barrel is shot?

maybe?

but it only has about 4 mags through it. and it has a mirror shine.

probably has more to do with me than the gun.

 

i'm toying with the idea of scoping the guns and redoing the test.

 

j

 

either that or your sight is loose. That has happened to me before. the sight on the M1a become loose and goes out of 0 and starts going all over the place when you shoot it. An m1a should defiantly out shoot a saiga. It could also be that you don't like peep sights as much as the AK style sights? I couldn't hit the side of a barn until i got one of these.

 

once I got these I just line the peep sight circle up with that circle and put the post on what i want to hit. Much better then the other front sight.

2012_GLFS-H_lg2-186x405.jpg

Edited by CardBoardBoxProcessor
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i'm toying with the idea of scoping the guns and redoing the test.

 

Yes please. If you get different results with a scope then you will know what the problem was, as it would be obvious it was not the gun. Form what you show here though you obviously shoot the saiga better, which says alot about which gun YOU can rely on.

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My M1A gets 4-5" MOA (at 100 YDS) with irons tops, and 1.5" scoped. I have seen other people shoot sub MOA with their scoped M1A and M14.

 

I will agree with Mr. Luppino in this respect; I have never seen ANYONE shoot sub-MOA using standard iron sights (no optics or diopter) with ANY rifle. I have heard many people talk, but none could come close to backing it up.

 

I saw a guy come close at 100 yards with a diopter sight on a surplus K31 rifle.

Edited by desert dog
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i'm toying with the idea of scoping the guns and redoing the test.

 

Yes please. If you get different results with a scope then you will know what the problem was, as it would be obvious it was not the gun. Form what you show here though you obviously shoot the saiga better, which says alot about which gun YOU can rely on.

and that is what matters.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is an excellent post! Please do keep us updated and try to keep it apples to apples.

 

But I believe folks who ponied up the $1500+ or so for a M1A might see it a bit different. Just human nature I suppose.

 

But I am still cheering for the Saiga! :haha:

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I love the M1A and i to think it's a matter of your more comfortable with the saiga that the M1A. But hey look at this way if the SHTF grab the saiga and you can sell the M1A for serious coin. They are like Harleys the always hold their value. :smoke:

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All 3 of the newer commercial production M1As I have shot are under 2"@100yds right out of the box with the right ammo but they have NO USGI parts and no chrome lining in the barrel so they are a commercial sporting rifle dressed like a military rifle where as my first Saiga 308 was a 4"@100yds gun right out of the box but I didn't know as much about tuning rifles as I do now and my second Saiga is definitely a 2"@100yds gun with a good crown and a little attention paid to ammo selection.

 

My Saiga sports a chrome lined,hammer forged barrel,3 lug bolt,heat treated receiver,reinforced trunnion and is otherwise a typical AK100 series Kalashnikov mechanically and I would not hesitate to use it as my "go to" rifle but I would want to retrofit a chrome lined barrel,USGI bolt,oprod and gas cylinder on any new commercial M1A to feel like it was truly up to the long haul task of a lifetime of field use and possibly fighting for my life.

 

My Saiga cost $650 complete(I bought the base rifle when it was cheap) which is actually less than the USGI parts I would want to retrofit on a newer M1A if I went down and bought a new squad scout tomorrow so the choice should seem like an easy one but...

 

I started shooting Garands and later M1As in DCM when I was in military school as a teenager and I am so comfortable with the sights,trigger and magazine changes(especially with the use of a smith bolt stop) that it was hard to give up my M1A and the Saiga mags are not as plentiful as the M1A mags either and when you lose your mags you can still load an M1A with stripper clips.

 

I was able to buy 18 FBMG mags,modify my S308 to more than acceptable levels,acquire 1000rds of my Saiga's favorite ammo for the price of a nice M1A.

 

Saiga 308 was my final choice but it sure isn't the only choice

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I was thinking about buying a new M1a when i found the saiga in 308 for $307 OTD a few years back. Me and my son took it to the range using south african 308 ball ammo benchrested at 100yds we both shot 1 1/2" groups back to back with it. The saiga is my very first ak style sheetmetal stamped gun and it really surprised me with its accuracy. I went after the saiga in 223 next. I felt really bad only spending about $550 for both guns and the m1a was $1,200 for one gun so i purchased a few more saiga's to make the dollar amount right. Yup i got 5 saiga's for $1,200. One i found was used with no mag that was even cheaper and still in new condition. I purchased them all before the import stopped the first time. I'm hoping the import won't stop a second time with the new pres. But Biden was the guy who wrote the first assualt weapons bill. How did we ever put him in office i'll never know. My point is buy your weapons now and get them saiga's.

Edited by Unknown Poster
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