WTS Bumper stocks..

[csspecs 1,987]

Testing interest on this item, this is the first batch of ten stocks, two rifle length 8 carbine length. Stock constructed completely of steel. Item only fits stamped AK-M pattern rifles, a drill with Phillips bit is required for installation, installed using two self drilling screws (or if you like you can drill and tap to fit your rifle). Paint is very basic and will likely wear off, just applied as a rust prevention.

 

This stock does NOT bumpfire the rifle for you nor does it make any rifle into a machine gun. It allows for you to shoulder the rifle while bumpfiring thus letting you aim your first shots with the sights instead of "walking them to the target". The stock slides a short distance so all safety rules MUST be followed at all times, the chamber should remain empty and the safety on until you are going to fire.

 

Copy of ATF letter will be included with the stock. Two slight variations from the letter exist, the reinforcing bar was left off as it was unnecessary and the over all length of the carbine models are one inch shorter. Neither of these changes in anyway effects how the item functions at all. A letter will also be included to explain for the alterations.

 

We are going to try at 165.00 shipped to the lower states. I'm still working on a list of what states are a no go, I'm going to say for now that it may be considered a collapsible stock and go from there, it really gets longer not shorter when fired so it's hard to say if thats true or not...

 

Working on getting a website up in the next month if things go well.

 

So for right now I'm not shipping to

New York

California

Connecticut

Or Chicago, IL

Video of a successful bumpfire while using the stock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmQK360y9QI

 

[Wakko 10]

Helluva video. Where in Florida are you? Are you going to do them with a real pistol grip at some point?

[csspecs 1,987]

We may do that as pipe welding is harder than using a pistol grip... The pipe used should have been 1 5/16 OD but the steel yard gave us 1 5/8 OD... Even still it's right about the same size as a tapco SAW grip.

 

Using an add on pistol grip would also be going farther off from the ATF letter but it would still not affect function in anyway. So I don't really see the problem. It would likely cost about an extra 20.00 depending on the grip and mounting method.

 

I'm about halfway between Orlando and Daytona on I-4... Near the Orange city Deltona area.

[KySoldier 2]

Nice idea. Of course the Akins Accelerator was neat when it was approved and sold for a short time.

 

 

Good luck to ya

[oak 3]

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Edited November 22, 2008 by oak

[oak 3]

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Edited November 22, 2008 by oak

[oak 3]

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Edited November 22, 2008 by oak

[flclisgreat 0]

so does it just free float from the gun?

[lance 4]

thats a cool idea!

 

what does it do if you just want to do single shots? is there some way to lock it out from moving?

[Bvamp 604]

Nice idea. Of course the Akins Accelerator was neat when it was approved and sold for a short time.

 

 

Good luck to ya

 

KySoldier - The Akins Accel. actually used a mechanism inside the stock to release the hammer, via pulling the trigger for you each time, when you held the trigger depressed fully with your finger. Kind of the definition of the "machine gun" under federal law, really. you pull the trigger one time and hold it down, and the gun bumped off multiple shots, with a part between the firing pin and trigger that reset the trigger FOR you.

 

This stock apparantly and obviously makes your actual finger pull the original trigger, with no interruptor parts installed, which releases the hammer each individual shot, each time you depress the trigger. You pull the trigger once, it fires one shot. under recoil, the gun itself allows the trigger to be reset on the disconnector, and as the entire firearm moves forward, your trigger finger is pulling the trigger for the next individual shot.

 

The key is that YOUR FINGER is manipulating the trigger, each and every time, not some other part.

 

If the ATF were to stop production of this stock, it could be easily argued in court by the letter of the law that this stock does not in fact constitute a machien gun by any way you can read the definition of the law. take a video of the trigger hand so that you can see the trigger being pulled by the shooter's finger each and every shot, and its pretty much a done deal.

 

Doesnt Wisconsin or some state have a law on the books prohibiting bump firing a firearm?

 

 

Just my .02c

 

 

 

Oh yeh, to the OP - if you are going into production with this, you really should get a business membership on this site. you are no longer a causal private seller, but in business to make money.

[csspecs 1,987]

Ok I looked all over for something in WI or any other state for that matter... I can't find anything, I do see a whole bunch of links about that guy in WI that had an AR-15 that the ATF said was an auto. And a lot of them talked about "well now bumpfiring is going to be illegal" But other than that I can't find anything.

 

Here is video just showing the stock and how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-C9f4J7VYg

 

"Stock is a tight fit but will need a screw installed to keep it on for actual use. First dry fire is showing how to bumpfire with it. Second dry fire is showing normal one shot firing."

 

Yeah if I start doing this at a rate that is making income I will become a business member... Right now I am trying to find out if there is an interest.

Edited November 22, 2008 by csspecs

[Jroberts1968 32]

Ok I looked all over for something in WI or any other state for that matter... I can't find anything, I do see a whole bunch of links about that guy in WI that had an AR-15 that the ATF said was an auto. And a lot of them talked about "well now bumpfiring is going to be illegal" But other than that I can't find anything.

 

Here is video just showing the stock and how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-C9f4J7VYg

 

"Stock is a tight fit but will need a screw installed to keep it on for actual use. First dry fire is showing how to bumpfire with it. Second dry fire is showing normal one shot firing."

 

Yeah if I start doing this at a rate that is making income I will become a business member... Right now I am trying to find out if there is an interest.

 

If I were you I would pull your add and file a patent, this will be copied. If you havent already. Just a sugesstion.

[73cj5 1]

Nice idea. Of course the Akins Accelerator was neat when it was approved and sold for a short time.

 

 

Good luck to ya

 

KySoldier - The Akins Accel. actually used a mechanism inside the stock to release the hammer, via pulling the trigger for you each time, when you held the trigger depressed fully with your finger. Kind of the definition of the "machine gun" under federal law, really. you pull the trigger one time and hold it down, and the gun bumped off multiple shots, with a part between the firing pin and trigger that reset the trigger FOR you.

 

This stock apparantly and obviously makes your actual finger pull the original trigger, with no interruptor parts installed, which releases the hammer each individual shot, each time you depress the trigger. You pull the trigger once, it fires one shot. under recoil, the gun itself allows the trigger to be reset on the disconnector, and as the entire firearm moves forward, your trigger finger is pulling the trigger for the next individual shot.

 

The key is that YOUR FINGER is manipulating the trigger, each and every time, not some other part.

 

AKINS If the ATF were to stop production of this stock, it could be easily argued in court by the letter of the law that this stock does not in fact constitute a machien gun by any way you can read the definition of the law. take a video of the trigger hand so that you can see the trigger being pulled by the shooter's finger each and every shot, and its pretty much a done deal.

 

Doesnt Wisconsin or some state have a law on the books prohibiting bump firing a firearm?

 

 

Just my .02c

 

 

 

Oh yeh, to the OP - if you are going into production with this, you really should get a business membership on this site. you are no longer a causal private seller, but in business to make money.

 

 

JUST A CLARIFICATION.......

 

The Akins Accel. DID NOT use a mechanism inside the stock to release the hammer, via pulling the trigger for you each time, when you held the trigger depressed fully with your finger.

 

AKINS IS NOT A MACHINE GUN... ONE PULL PER SHOT....., BUT ATF SAYS IT IS ONE....... Kind of the definition of the "machine gun" under federal law, really. you pull the trigger one time and hold it down, and the gun bumped off multiple shots, with a part between the firing pin and trigger that reset the trigger FOR you.

 

BE CAREFUL WITH THIS.......

[Kriegerwithin 0]

I'm located in Florida and I'm really interested in your stock but I haven't modified my x39 to a PG.

 

Do you plan on making some of these stocks specifically for unmodified Saiga rifles, if possible?

Please let keep me updated!

[csspecs 1,987]

I'm located in Florida and I'm really interested in your stock but I haven't modified my x39 to a PG.

 

Do you plan on making some of these stocks specifically for unmodified Saiga rifles, if possible?

Please let keep me updated!

 

Well I took a quick look and it looks to be a simple mater to get them to work. The extension that holds the pistol grip would be shorter to make up for the trigger placement. There is also that little tang that comes out on the bottom of the stock, that might be a little tricky as well.

 

It would replace the stock on your parts count and add a pistol grip, meaning that if you used US made mags ONLY you would be ok for 922r. So using master molder mags you should be good to go.

 

One other thing to consider is that the trigger is a little bit stronger so I don't know if it will be that easy to bumpfire.

[DaGroaner 2]

If I were you I'd drill and thread a hole in it so any type of AK p-grip can be used. Where I live it is very cold and a steel grip just won't do the trick for me.

[Caspian 32]

KySoldier - The Akins Accel. actually used a mechanism inside the stock to release the hammer, via pulling the trigger for you each time, when you held the trigger depressed fully with your finger. Kind of the definition of the "machine gun" under federal law, really. you pull the trigger one time and hold it down, and the gun bumped off multiple shots, with a part between the firing pin and trigger that reset the trigger FOR you.

 

You're never seen or handled an AA, have you? That is incorrect.

 

Anywho, this modification is similar to what people have been doing by adding a spring to a collapsable AR stock. Nice to see it formalized into a seperate design with the intent of bumping while maintaining a solid grip.

 

Caspian

[Kriegerwithin 0]

Well I took a quick look and it looks to be a simple mater to get them to work. The extension that holds the pistol grip would be shorter to make up for the trigger placement. There is also that little tang that comes out on the bottom of the stock, that might be a little tricky as well.

 

It would replace the stock on your parts count and add a pistol grip, meaning that if you used US made mags ONLY you would be ok for 922r. So using master molder mags you should be good to go.

 

One other thing to consider is that the trigger is a little bit stronger so I don't know if it will be that easy to bumpfire.

 

Thanks for the response and your interest to my question.

 

So your saying it could be done?

 

I'm wanting to buy at least two of those bad boys!

[Caspian 32]

I don't know how much of the tube you're using for the internal springs, but if there is anyway you could add a fixed portion of a collapsable AR stock and maybe an AR pistol grip, it would be a whole lot more comfortable and more asthetic. Add the cost of components to your cost and i think people would appriciate it and be willing to pay the extra few bucks.

 

Caspian

[csspecs 1,987]

Thanks for the response and your interest to my question.

 

So your saying it could be done?

 

I'm wanting to buy at least two of those bad boys!

 

I think it can be done. I built one last night that "should" fit a normal saiga rifle, I don't have a normal unconverted saiga around to test it on but it should fit...

 

Working on getting that one painted but I am having to find another paint as I'm having some wear issues on my test model. The paint is going to wear off on the sliding area no matter what is done, it just needs to last longer than a couple hundred rounds.

 

I'm looking at powder coating but it's about a 50-60$ cost per stock to have it done. That might be something I can add in the future.

 

 

I don't know how much of the tube you're using for the internal springs, but if there is anyway you could add a fixed portion of a collapsable AR stock and maybe an AR pistol grip, it would be a whole lot more comfortable and more asthetic. Add the cost of components to your cost and i think people would appriciate it and be willing to pay the extra few bucks.

 

Well there are no internal springs, the tube does not hold anything it's just the sliding portion of the stock. I had looked into using AR stocks before making the test model for the ATF, it's a little more challenging to make something fit to plastic while still looking good and yet strong enough to survive use.

 

I am looking at using AK pistol grips instead of steel tubing, thats also a little tricky as the bolt used to attach the grip cannot go through the extension on the bottom of the stock or it would not function.

 

Thanks for the input, I'll see if at some point I can do that.

[Kriegerwithin 0]

I think it can be done. I built one last night that "should" fit a normal saiga rifle, I don't have a normal unconverted saiga around to test it on but it should fit...

 

Working on getting that one painted but I am having to find another paint as I'm having some wear issues on my test model. The paint is going to wear off on the sliding area no matter what is done, it just needs to last longer than a couple hundred rounds.

 

I'm looking at powder coating but it's about a 50-60$ cost per stock to have it done. That might be something I can add in the future.

 

Sweet! If your willing, I have an unconverted Saiga just sittin in the cabinet. I could drive it up to your shop to let you use as a guideline. PM me.

Edited November 25, 2008 by Kriegerwithin

[matt7806 0]

This is pretty cool. I live just north of Orlando near the Maitland exit of i-4 if you need a test firer

Awesome idea btw.

[headshot 52]

Nice idea. Of course the Akins Accelerator was neat when it was approved and sold for a short time.

 

 

Good luck to ya

 

KySoldier - The Akins Accel. actually used a mechanism inside the stock to release the hammer, via pulling the trigger for you each time, when you held the trigger depressed fully with your finger. Kind of the definition of the "machine gun" under federal law, really. you pull the trigger one time and hold it down, and the gun bumped off multiple shots, with a part between the firing pin and trigger that reset the trigger FOR you.

 

This stock apparantly and obviously makes your actual finger pull the original trigger, with no interruptor parts installed, which releases the hammer each individual shot, each time you depress the trigger. You pull the trigger once, it fires one shot. under recoil, the gun itself allows the trigger to be reset on the disconnector, and as the entire firearm moves forward, your trigger finger is pulling the trigger for the next individual shot.

 

The key is that YOUR FINGER is manipulating the trigger, each and every time, not some other part.

 

 

 

 

That is NOT how the Atkins worked. The Atkins works in the EXACT same manner as this guy's stock. I have personally spoken to Atkins through ar15.com, and he is currently suing the ATF due to the fact that they approved the stock then waited until he sunk all his money into it until they made it illegal.

 

He had an ATF letter of approval in the beginning as well. His stock is just a bumpfiring stock as well.

[Wakko 10]

Didn't his lawsuit already get dismissed or lost? Or was that something else?

[csspecs 1,987]

That is NOT how the Atkins worked. The Atkins works in the EXACT same manner as this guy's stock. I have personally spoken to Atkins through ar15.com, and he is currently suing the ATF due to the fact that they approved the stock then waited until he sunk all his money into it until they made it illegal.

 

He had an ATF letter of approval in the beginning as well. His stock is just a bumpfiring stock as well.

 

Well what the ATF had issue with was the spring, the spring is what pushed the trigger into the users finger. The ATF made all the owners of his stock send them the springs, as I understand he can sell them still if he redesigned the stock to use manual force to operate... I think I even sent an email to him about doing that.

 

If you compare the stocks in what they do you can quite clearly see the difference, the Atkins encases the rifle completely and all you do to bumpfire is hold your finger down... Thats not really bumpfiring, you only have to hold your finger down, thats why the ATF came up with the meaning of trigger pull that means you have to pull the trigger.

 

My stock STILL does not do anything other than let you hold the rifle normally.

[corbin 621]

Neat idea.

I was going to suggest having a spring added to help push the receiver back forward, and act as a bit of a recoil absorber, but after researching the links here and learning about the Atkins Accelerator, it sounds like the spring would make this stock really close to the AA.

 

My original suggestion was to have the pistol grip go right up to the back of the trigger guard, then have a slot cut into the grip to allow the guard to slide back into it a little. That way, the trigger itself MIGHT be able to recess enough to reset itself. This sounds like it would be too close to the AA though, and would probably not be worth risking.

[Bvamp 604]

a part mechanically reset the trigger for you each time on the akins. This is not your finger doing it, it was a part in the atkins. I looked at the drawings of the thing. its clear.

 

this stock is not the same, no part touches the trigger or moves your finger. your finger is physically releasing the trigger and physically touching each shot off with no part resetting the trigger for you. this was, and has been the definition of "machine gun" in ATF terminology and is not new. I agree with the designer of this part that it is NOT the same method of firing as the akins is/was. The akins vs "machine gun" definition takes all of a minute to figure it fit the letter of the law as one, however unfortuneante it worked out in the end.

 

from what I have seen, heard and read about the whole akins fiasco, I do interpret the law as it WAS a machinegun, due entirely to a PART helping to reset the trigger from the guns recoil. One can readily tell from the drawings at the us patent office, which are readily available, that your finger does NOT allow the trigger to be let up while it fires. The gun bangs into the trigger and pushes your finger up. Maybe you guys are right though, and maybe he should send them one to get a letter on. I bet they AINT gonna like it, and will TRY to find a way that it is not legal, but that would require adding to definitions that are already in place, and THAT might be what they do, which would be unfortunate to say the least. I also agree that a patent might be a good idea as well.

 

And I am SURE that you can touch one single round off of your gun with this stock on there if you pull the trigger HARD and hold it down, although on this stock, it looks like it would hurt a bit, or possibly severely, depending on the amount of force that the spring in the stock exerts. That I would like to see on video, actually. Because if you CANT do that, then you very well will have a problem.

 

I coulda swore there was some statute that went in some state in that named bumpfiring as either unintentional dishcharge or careless use something or other. I gues I was wrong on that, but one never CAN find what you are looking for in legal books half the time.

[flclisgreat 0]

a part mechanically reset the trigger for you each time on the akins. This is not your finger doing it, it was a part in the atkins. I looked at the drawings of the thing. its clear.

 

this stock is not the same, no part touches the trigger or moves your finger. your finger is physically releasing the trigger and physically touching each shot off with no part resetting the trigger for you. this was, and has been the definition of "machine gun" in ATF terminology and is not new. I agree with the designer of this part that it is NOT the same method of firing as the akins is/was. The akins vs "machine gun" definition takes all of a minute to figure it fit the letter of the law as one, however unfortuneante it worked out in the end.

 

from what I have seen, heard and read about the whole akins fiasco, I do interpret the law as it WAS a machinegun, due entirely to a PART helping to reset the trigger from the guns recoil. One can readily tell from the drawings at the us patent office, which are readily available, that your finger does NOT allow the trigger to be let up while it fires. The gun bangs into the trigger and pushes your finger up. Maybe you guys are right though, and maybe he should send them one to get a letter on. I bet they AINT gonna like it, and will TRY to find a way that it is not legal, but that would require adding to definitions that are already in place, and THAT might be what they do, which would be unfortunate to say the least. I also agree that a patent might be a good idea as well.

 

And I am SURE that you can touch one single round off of your gun with this stock on there if you pull the trigger HARD and hold it down, although on this stock, it looks like it would hurt a bit, or possibly severely, depending on the amount of force that the spring in the stock exerts. That I would like to see on video, actually. Because if you CANT do that, then you very well will have a problem.

 

I coulda swore there was some statute that went in some state in that named bumpfiring as either unintentional dishcharge or careless use something or other. I gues I was wrong on that, but one never CAN find what you are looking for in legal books half the time.

 

i think you think there IS a spring in the stock. there is not.

[csspecs 1,987]

And I am SURE that you can touch one single round off of your gun with this stock on there if you pull the trigger HARD and hold it down, although on this stock, it looks like it would hurt a bit, or possibly severely, depending on the amount of force that the spring in the stock exerts. That I would like to see on video, actually. Because if you CANT do that, then you very well will have a problem.

 

Um yeah Bvamp, Flclisgreat is right there is no spring in my stock.

 

If you want to shoot one at a time with no chance of bumping you pull the gun into you with your left hand and pull the trigger. To bump you hold your trigger finger as far out as possible and as stiff as you can, then push the gun away with your left hand. To go faster you pull your trigger finger a bit and push away a little harder.

 

Until you get the hang of using it you will get mostly single shots with a couple little bursts, takes about 30-60 rounds to learn how to use it. Most of the learning curve is that you don't pull the trigger, and don't push hard or fast, for some people that took a longer time to teach.

 

Neat idea.

I was going to suggest having a spring added to help push the receiver back forward, and act as a bit of a recoil absorber, but after researching the links here and learning about the Atkins Accelerator, it sounds like the spring would make this stock really close to the AA.

 

Yeah the ATF was very clear that springs would equal ten years or so of unwanted forcible man love... So I don't plan on putting any springs in it.

 

The stock does help recoil a bit from what I can tell, we shot about 1000 rounds with bare steel buttplates with no bruising, heck I shot about 150 12gauge shells with it without a problem. It's more like a steady push than a bunch of little slams like you have with a full auto.

 

I don't recommend using this on .308s or the shotguns, the .308 is just a ton of recoil and the shotguns FTE and FTF a lot.

 

My original suggestion was to have the pistol grip go right up to the back of the trigger guard, then have a slot cut into the grip to allow the guard to slide back into it a little. That way, the trigger itself MIGHT be able to recess enough to reset itself. This sounds like it would be too close to the AA though, and would probably not be worth risking.

 

I had built an early model that did that (about two years ago)... Thing about cut my middle finger off. Thats why the pistol grip is as far back as it is, it should have enough room for your fingers behind the trigger guard so they don't get smashed from recoil (I don't know if there are other model of AK that have different trigger guards).

[corbin 621]

Definitely not worth adding a spring to this setup then. Not if it means forceable man love.

 

My vision of the slotted pistol grip wouldn't allow your middle finger to get behind the trigger guard. In the stock's most rearward position, the rear of the trigger guard would be flush with the front of the grip. Then it would retract into the grip a little bit, but not so much that the inside FRONT of the trigger guard would pinch your trigger finger. That might not be enough movement for what you want though.

 

 

I had built an early model that did that (about two years ago)... Thing about cut my middle finger off. Thats why the pistol grip is as far back as it is, it should have enough room for your fingers behind the trigger guard so they don't get smashed from recoil (I don't know if there are other model of AK that have different trigger guards).

 

My original suggestion was to have the pistol grip go right up to the back of the trigger guard, then have a slot cut into the grip to allow the guard to slide back into it a little. That way, the trigger itself MIGHT be able to recess enough to reset itself. This sounds like it would be too close to the AA though, and would probably not be worth risking.