Suarez Intl vs. Front Sight training

[doublehorse 1]

Has anyone taken classes from both these schools? If so, which had the better training. Forget about cost, location, etc. I'm just interested in the quality of the training.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Has anyone taken classes from both these schools? If so, which had the better training. Forget about cost, location, etc. I'm just interested in the quality of the training.

 

if you are looking for rock sold training, I'd suggest Suarez Intl...

The depth of Suarez and his instructors is unparalleled....

a High Speed quality organization for sure....

 

Be sure to tell em "Juggs said Hi"

 

I have no experience with Front site or their training...

I have heard some alarming things on other boards.....

I can not confirm nor deny....

 

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showth...threadid=138756

 

From "Wiki"

Piazza has been associated with Scientology^[24][28], and has reportedly reached the level of "Clear". ^[29] He considers himself to be a Catholic and not an active Scientologist, but does use some of the business strategies and ideas of L. Ron Hubbard in his endeavors.^[28]

 

 

 

that being said, i know nothing of them or their training....

[TonyRumore 1,332]

I took the foreign weapons class at GunSite. It was OK. We just ended up shooting AK's and Glocks for a fucking week straight. We spent about 10 minutes on each of the other ComBloc guns. Not exactly what I had in mind.

 

Tony

[Bean.223 365]

Isnt FrontSite the ones that offer the free XD??

[doublehorse 1]

Isnt FrontSite the ones that offer the free XD??

 

 

Front Sight has several packages that include guns, one of them is the XD-40. They are based outside of Vegas.

[mstranglr 9]

I have taken 2 courses at Suarez Int and one at frontsite.

 

The frontsite class was OK and the instructor was very proficient. I went because a friend was going (he drove while I slept). But, I had the folowing issues;

1) Place reminded me of walking on a used car lot, or getting bombarded by timeshare salesmen at the Cabo San Lucas Airport. People trying to sell me property, memberships, courses, etc.. Im surprised they dont run infomercials on TV.

2) Classes are way too expensive for what you get, possibly due to the close proximity to California and Las Vegas.

3) The employees wore generic military style uniforms and look like they came out of a "B" movie army. It almost felt like you were entering a "cult" compound.

 

The owner of Frontsite has a bad reputation in my hometown of Bakersfield. Frontsite started in the hills outside of Bakersfield. Just before the California assault weapons ban, Frontsite obtained a permit that allowed the school to possess banned weapons for training purposes. Apparently, the owner convinced alot of folks to give their banned and auto weapons to him (rather than surrender them to the state of California or hide them) by telling them they could come to the facility and shoot them when they wanted. Then he took the guns and moved to Nevada. I bet alot of the weapons you train with there came from the folks in Bakersfield.

 

Even though there are some bad rumors about Gabe Suarez, I took one of his F-on-F classes a couple of years ago. That class blew my mind and made me throw much of what I had learned to that point out the window. I then took the 8 hour drive to his place in Arizona to take his Kalash gunfighting class and was impressed by the instruction, facility, low cost, and accommodating atmospere. I plan to take his new AK class where you get to fight at night, Ive got my flash hiders ready.

[WS6_Keith 0]

I've been to Front Sight twice...4-day handgun (on one of those free certificates) and 2-day shotgun (nope, Mossy 590A1 - sorry). Both classes were well taught. Regardless of what you know or don't know going in, you learn something. Their legal seminars talking about problems 2 & 3 (criminal and civil liability after problem 1 - survival) are great to hear. Really makes you think where your mental triggers need to be regarding pulling that trigger.

 

Never been to Gabe's classes, but have heard nothing than excellent reviews from my former bosses, both of which were handgun combat masters through FS, and have trained with Suarez for a while now. I kinda look at it like go to FS to get familiar and the basics...then head to Suarez for the fine tuning, force on force, hard core stuff. Suarez has you running through the brush and crawling on the ground and such...FS is much more class-like, standing at the firing line.

 

At some point in the future, I plan to give my FS Challenge membership a workout, then head over to Gabe's classes too...just have to find that free time I keep hearing about.

[doublehorse 1]

I have taken 2 courses at Suarez Int and one at frontsite.

 

The frontsite class was OK and the instructor was very proficient. I went because a friend was going (he drove while I slept). But, I had the folowing issues;

1) Place reminded me of walking on a used car lot, or getting bombarded by timeshare salesmen at the Cabo San Lucas Airport. People trying to sell me property, memberships, courses, etc.. Im surprised they dont run infomercials on TV.

2) Classes are way too expensive for what you get, possibly due to the close proximity to California and Las Vegas.

3) The employees wore generic military style uniforms and look like they came out of a "B" movie army. It almost felt like you were entering a "cult" compound.

 

Thanks for your comments. Which Front Sight class did you take? You said the class was OK and instructor was very proficient. Would you say it was about the same as Suarez Intl? You mention Suarez F-to-F class, which covers material probably not covered in the 2 or 4 day FS class (but is in later classes). So what I am looking for is for the material that was supposed to be covered in the FS class, did they accomplish the class objectives and did you feel like you learned from it?

 

I live in Vegas so they are convenient for me to go there. Cost is not an issue for me.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

Suarez International...

 

Detailed Description January 10-11, 2009

 

DEFENSIVE PISTOL SKILLS

 

Boulder City/Las Vegas, Nevada

 

 

 

All training must begin with fundamentals. This fundamentals class is designed to prep you for the more advanced courses such as Close Range Gunfighting. Through a carefully designed and detailed curriculum we are able to bring you up to a level of skill in a short two day class that previously would take over 4 or 5 days to achieve at other schools.

 

 

 

This class is taught by our Suarez International Staff Instructor - Roger Phillips. You will learn a complete presentation of the modern combative technique of the pistol which will put you in good standing for any defensive situations you may encounter in the real world. No experience or prior training is needed to attend this class and it is specially suitable for beginners.

 

 

http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/in...&ProdID=620

 

 

 

Feb 7th Las Vegas

 

Instructor: Roger Phillips

 

http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/in...&ProdID=621

 

February 7-8, 2009

Close Range Gunfighting Boulder City/Las Vegas, Nevada

 

 

This is our flagship course and goes as far as you can safely go on a square range with live-fire pistols. The dynamic curriculum surpasses the traditonal handgun methods commonly taught in most institutions and focuses of the use of the pistol in aggressive close range applications likely in individual civilian street encounters.

 

The class is instructed by Suarez International Staff Instructor Roger Phillips. We begin with a tune-up of the fundamentals, then we progress quickly to new skills such as Proactive and Reactive Manipulations, Shooting While Moving Off The X, Reality-Based Multiple Hostiles Engagement, 360 degree CQB Movement, Danger-Close Fighting, Bilateral Shooting, 360 degree After Action Assessment Methods, and Integrating the Flashlight and Other Tools into the Firing Platform. This is the life-saving material that is often ignored in many other programs. In two days, you will receive more information than most armed professionals ever get! Suitable for BOTH civilian defenders and professional operators.

 

We must point out that THIS COURSE IS NOT FOR THE NOVICE SHOOTER. If you have not received basic instruction in Defensive Pistol, or have a question about your skill level, please call us first.

[mstranglr 9]

Doublehorse,

 

 

 

I held back, but since you kindly requested it, I will go into further detail just for you;

 

I took the 4-day pistol course. The material is as basic as you can get. This is the same stuff that every Chuck Taylor or old Gunsite instructor teaches in 1-2 day courses. Frontsite charges $2,000 for a $300 class. FS trainers do basic training very well but are very systematic and impersonal. I noticed a couple of people struggling and they got no personal attention. The instructors know the material, but just go through the motions teaching it. I got the feeling that training is basically an afterthought - the real reason you are there is to listen to numerous "sales pitches", this is why they give away so many free and discount classes. On day 3, you will loose training time to attend a "financial opportunity" seminar. "Life Members" and "investors" of Frontsite troll gun boards trying to promote Frontsite, once again as a sales pitch.

 

Gunsite is also an option for you if you were considering Suarez Int (close by). When I took some classes at Gunsite, I was told that the owner of Frontsite (the 4-weapon combat master) recently attended a shooting competition at Gunsite. He placed dead last - and they gave him a ticket for a free basic handgun class at gunsite as a prize! I have trained with real 4-weapon masters (Don Busse and Chuck Taylor) and they would school Mr. Piazza in a heartbeat. Speaking of Gunsite, the 250 pistol class is everything the frontsite class was supposed to be and much more - for half the price. Although some of the Gunsite classes are pretty generic too, its half the cost without all the salesman bullshite.

 

Before I first took my first class with Suarez, I had mixed feelings because I had heard mixed opinions about him. All the good stuff came from people who have trained with him, all the bad stuff came from other instructors (usually told "that stuff Gabe teaches will get you killed"). Well not only were those instructors wrong, they copied Gabe and now teach the same stuff. Gabe's pistol classes are fast paced and demanding. you will get more out of 2 days in a basic defensive pistol class at Suarez than you will get in 5 days somewhere else. Gabe's material is very dynamic and open minded. What blew my mind about his F-on-F is that with all the hundreds of hours of pistol training I had before the class, I was getting killed by people who had never even touched a gun until recently. Gabe's AK class was nothing short of awesome, and is a dream come true for an AK aficionado like myself. Now to be honest, Gabe is not without his faults too; I think his love for the AK has spawned a kind of arrogant hate for the AR rifle, which is too bad because the AR system is pretty damn good too. Gabe also markets himself as some kind of crazy-badass "king of controversy" mall-ninja's wet dream, kind of like that annoying owner of Cold-Steel knives. Gabe is not really like this in person and is really quite humble, but it seems as though being loud and stirring the poo has been good for business.

 

If money is no object, you live near Parumhp, and you have no prior training experience with other schools - than Frontsight may be your best option, and you might like it. Frontsight training is definately better than no training at all.

 

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Edited December 5, 2008 by desert dog

[doublehorse 1]

Thanks for the detailed response. I am signed up for Suarez Basic Pistol in Jan. Maybe I will take a Front Sight 4-day pistol class and compare the two. I like that I can take the Front Sight classes locally whenever I want, and repeat them often. FS also offers more shotgun classes than Suarez. However, I have not yet gotten them (FS) to agree to let me bring a Saiga-12. The problem with Suarez's shotgun class is that it is only in Commiefornia for 2008/09, and my Saiga-12 is not allowed there. I do have a pump but would rather train with the Saiga. Maybe an approach is go as far as I can with FS, and then train with Suarez to go to the next level.

[Roger Phillips 1]

Thanks to Juggs for directing me to this discussion.

 

My name is Roger Phillips and I am the Suarez International (SI) Instructor assigned to Nevada. I Live in Vegas and my course are conducted out of the Boulder Rifle and Pistol Club in Boulder City NV.

 

I have taken around 45 courses at Front Sight, but have not been there in a long time due to the substantial drop in quality instructors. I went there before there was the hug payroll problem that lost them some of the best of the best. The whole "student coach" concept to make up for the inability to land quality insructors was the final nail in that coffin for me.

 

Frontsight = fundamentals

 

They will do a fine job of teaching you safe gun handling, the fundamentals keeping the gun running and hitting, a good five count draw stroke, and the use of the sights. It is all about the Modern Techniques (MT).

 

Suarez International = fighting with a gun.

 

We believe that the MT only taught half of the realities of a gunfight. We have picked up where Col. Cooper left off. We teach the proactive gunfight and the reactive gun fight. The MT virtual has nothing for the reactive gunfight......as desert dog found out in his FOF courses with SI.

 

I usually teach very advances stuff, but I am "going back to the fundamentals" in my course in January. Then taking it to an intermediate level in February. My hope is to broaden my local student base and prepare them to step into some of my more advanced courses.

 

We all need to remember that Gabe Suarez helped set up Frontsights curriculum with Taylor and Fleischman (sp?) way back at the very beginning of Frontsight. Since then, Frontsight has remained static and Suarez International is aggressively advancing the art.

 

It all depends on what you are looking for, the solid fundamentals of the Modern Techniques that was born out of competition.....or solid combat proven skill sets that were born out of combat. I was aggressively pursued by Frontsight to be an instructor for them.......I turned them down because the MT did not make sense to me. Then I met Gabe and the "common sense" made the choice clear.

Edited December 5, 2008 by Roger Phillips

[Juggernaut 11,054]

FWIW,the FoF Suarez class I took, changed my outlook on everything...

I feel I'm a better shooter now, than I was when I was in the Marine Corps....

[doublehorse 1]

Thanks for the comments. I decided to take pistol and rifle training with Suarez in Vegas. I'll take the 4 day tactical shotgun at Front Sight, since the closest Suarez shotgun class to me is in CA and I can't take my Saiga-12 there. I'll use a cheap certificate for the FS course.