Practicality of Folding Stocks for Home Defense

[siangolo 0]

Would like to get opinions from those converting their S12's for home defense. I am not a military or LE type but so far don't see the practical application of putting a folding mechanism on my S12. I understand the storage argument but it seems if I stored it folded that just means extra time (even if its just a second or two) to bring the weapon into play and one more thing to think about as I try to focus on defending my family from an intruder.

I also know from my time at the range that I don't see the use of firing the S12 with the stock folded. Just curious as I prepare to order more components to finish my conversion. Seems I could save money and skip the folding mechanism for something like the ACE CAR15 Stock Block instead.

Thanks guys...

[Jpanzer 1,265]

Limited experience with a S 12 here (soon to be corrected ), but in general, I agree with you as far as folding stocks on a shotgun. I do not see a practical use for a folding stock on a weapon with any significant recoil. If its a CQB situation and really that cramped then IMO you are better off with a handgun I would think.

 

Anyway, just my two cents...

[TR Young 175]

I have to admit that I don't see the need for a folding stock on a shotgun, either. It just doesn't seem piratical to me at all. I want to be able to have as much control over my shot placement as I can, and not having the weapon against my shoulder would negate that, IMHO.

 

Now, a telescoping stock, on the other hand, makes perfect sense to me.

[6500rpm 670]

IMHO, if you want something compact your better off putting the $85 that an ACE folding mechanism is going to run toward a $200 SBS stamp ( ; I've taken the folders off all my s12(s) just because I don't see the need anymore other than to say my gun has one???

[Azrial 1,091]

I love these types of questions as they seek one definitive answer for every application!

Which of course, is ridiculous.

 

I have a folders on several of my weapons and I assure you that I have valid reasons for doing so. If you don't want a folder, don't need a folder, or just can't afford a folder, just don't get one!

 

It is that simple and makes more sense that the mental masturbation of sitting around trying to justify your decision and invalidate everyone else's based on the opinions of strangers whose "experience" may have been acquired during many hours of playing Halo3.

[ML Roak 0]

It is that simple and makes more sense that the mental masturbation of sitting around trying to justify your decision and invalidate everyone else's based on the opinions of strangers whose "experience" may have been acquired during many hours of playing Halo3.

 

:lolol: :lolol:

That's one of the funniest things I've seen in a while!

Besides, I'm a REAL expert, I play CoD

On a serious note:

I might like to get a folder before some jackass Lib tells me I can't. Anybody else remember the "pinned" folding and collapsible stocks?

[Tactical_T 6]

Although folding/collapsing stocks look cool on most all weapons, I believe they were really designed for Paratrooper soldiers. And of course, law enforcement also has a use for them, particularly collapsing stocks.

 

For home defense, and most other non law enforcement/military applications, I would agree that a full stock is actually the best way to go. No thought or manipulation required. Just shoulder and fire.

 

But regardless, I would prefer an S12 with a folding stock, as it adds versatility and may increase resale value a bit. If you don't want to have the think or spend an extra half second unfolding it, then just leave it in the unfolded position when not in use.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Tactical_T

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

 

In the event that you would like to have some means of defense outside of your home and you feel the need for more firepower that a pistol; which of the above do you think would attract less attention as you walk through the hotel lobby? In the event of an Argentina style collapse what are your plans? Any outside of the box thinking going on? Just another thought.

 

1911

[TonyRumore 1,332]

It doesn't matter either way.

 

Tony

[numbnuts 1]

Just food for thought here.......

 

 

What about a vert foregrip used with the S-12 in the folded position for home defense.........for close quarters conflict......

 

 

 

Then unfold the stock as the bg is running for the hills,or taking cover with his accomplices, for a longer range aimed shot......

 

 

Kinds gives ya' the best of both worlds.....

 

 

of course just my humble opinion

[loki0629 55]

It is that simple and makes more sense that the mental masturbation of sitting around trying to justify your decision and invalidate everyone else's based on the opinions of strangers whose "experience" may have been acquired during many hours of playing Halo3.

 

Every day I say to myself "What would Master Chief do?"

 

The answer is always so simple...shoot it, blow it up, or sticky grenade it.

 

Master Chief is wise.

 

Master Bates on the other hand is stupid and useless.

 

(Sorry Az...couldn't resist)

[BobAsh 582]

It doesn't matter either way.

 

Tony

 

Yeah. I have the folder but I've never shot it folded. As soon as it comes out of it's (tiny) case, the fist thing I do is pop the stock out.

[bigj480 203]

I like folding stocks because they're tacticool. They are practical for home defense, but offer no real advantage IMO.

[Eric Pate 478]

Folders are for storage/transport. Thats it.

[scoutjoe 276]

I put a folder on mine simply because it pissed off Sarah Brady. I can't remember myself ever shooting it folded up, it stays unfolded in the safe. My next one will have a fixed stock for better cheekweld so I'll have better accuracy.

 

 

For home defense I don't think I would mess with one, its just one more "evil" feature that the prosecutor/antis would try to nail you on.

[Azrial 1,091]

Not to hijack the thread, but what is the best sized shoe to wear when defending your home?

 

My friend Rocinante, who is a 12th Dan Ninja and Halo3 MasterBlaster, says that he only uses a old pair of K-Mart "Doc Marlin's" in size 10 and has successfully defended his home and family from everything from Anarchists to Zombies!! He says that the larger shoes will leave a bigger track and make it easy for aggressors to track me should I have to abandon my position.

 

Still, I have a hard time accepting this as my sized 17 feet are terribly cramped in this size of shoe and I think that the larger shoe simply makes a better suppository if I am forced to resort to physical tactics to defend myself.

 

Still it would be wonderful if I can get the validation of the group before making this simple decision on my own!

 

So what sized shoe is the best, tactically speaking, for everyone to use for home defense?

[Gibbles 23]

I don't need a 20rd drum for my shotgun...

but it does piss off the liberals!!!!

 

Why do you feel you need to rationalize a folding stock?

 

I like folding stocks personally, they save room when stuffed in the back of the truck, and they allow me to use a more decrete weapon case when moving them around, they allow me to use a case that does not scream GUN!!

That prevents your home and car from being broken into looking for that gun... (Ask me how I know )

 

I don't have a folding stock on my S12 yet, but I'm planning on it.

[Gunfixr 76]

Damn, Azrial, that's funny. My personal opinion, not gleaned through any time on Halo3, but lots of time on Doom, is that you want the biggest shoes you can get to stay on your feet. That way, when you take multiple hits from the BG, you won't be knocked over, since you have such a stable base.

 

Seriously, I never thought I needed a folder on my S12 either. I ended up putting one on anyway, because I wanted it, and that's good enough. I transport it in a shorter case, folded, and it stays wherever outside the case extended. I mostly shoot it extended.

But, at a 3-gun shoot, I had to engage 20 targets from the front seat of a mid-size car, 10 from the passenger window, and 10 from the driver window. After watching several competitors fight their 4ft long shotguns in the front seat, I decided to try it with the stock folded. I do have a VFG on the gun. I was able to engage all targets with the stock folded rather easily, using perhaps 23 or 24 shots to engage the 20 targets. I was using high brass heavy game loads with #4 shot. A couple of the targets had to be hit twice.

 

So, take from this what you will, but the S12 can be fired with 2 grips and no stock successfully at CQB ranges, even seated in a car.

 

You will have to decide for yourself whether this is something you want for yourself or not. I didn't put a folder on my short .308, but I'm keeping the one on my S12.

[TronJohn 1]

hahahaa!!!!

[TronJohn 1]

Damn, Azrial, that's funny. My personal opinion, not gleaned through any time on Halo3, but lots of time on Doom, is that you want the biggest shoes you can get to stay on your feet. That way, when you take multiple hits from the BG, you won't be knocked over, since you have such a stable base.

 

Seriously, I never thought I needed a folder on my S12 either. I ended up putting one on anyway, because I wanted it, and that's good enough. I transport it in a shorter case, folded, and it stays wherever outside the case extended. I mostly shoot it extended.

But, at a 3-gun shoot, I had to engage 20 targets from the front seat of a mid-size car, 10 from the passenger window, and 10 from the driver window. After watching several competitors fight their 4ft long shotguns in the front seat, I decided to try it with the stock folded. I do have a VFG on the gun. I was able to engage all targets with the stock folded rather easily, using perhaps 23 or 24 shots to engage the 20 targets. I was using high brass heavy game loads with #4 shot. A couple of the targets had to be hit twice.

 

So, take from this what you will, but the S12 can be fired with 2 grips and no stock successfully at CQB ranges, even seated in a car.

 

You will have to decide for yourself whether this is something you want for yourself or not. I didn't put a folder on my short .308, but I'm keeping the one on my S12.

 

What the hell kind of competition allows you to drive around and shoot at targets?

 

I think I want to get into this kind... haha

[Gunfixr 76]

Now that sounds really cool, but the car wasn't moving. We started behind the wheel, at the buzzer had to move over to the passenger side and engage those targets, then move back to the driver side and engage those targets, loading as necessary.

The doors were shut, although once back on the driver's side, you could open it and put one foot on the ground for a brace. I didn't bother with that. The targets were arranged so that you had to lean out the window for at least one of them on each side, making sure you slid all the way across the seat.

Oh, and unlike most 3-gun, where you can go to the car in between stages, here you had to carry everything for the whole day. Once you left your vehicle in the morning, you couldn't go back, and you couldn't "cache" any gear along the way, and no carts, it had to be worn on your person. You also couldn't take anything off to get in the car.

[rocinante 100]

FYI Azrial aint joking about having size 17 shoes. The man would definitely never need snow shoes.

 

I do the same thing 1911 does, carry mine around in a tennis bag. To me the advantage is it makes the weapon more compact and infinitely more portable. You could shoot from the hip but that is just for show. If I want to hit something I use the stock on the shoulder.

[siangolo 0]

Thanks everyone for the insight. Majority of your opinions were very helpfull in making this decision. I wanted to make sure i was not missing a tactical advantage in opting for a fixed stock. You know the deal... love my family and want to make sure I am in the best position to protect them. Apparantly there is a slightly defensive and imature, if not biligerent bent to a couple of posts and that's fine since we are in a country were there is freedom of expression. Unfortunately that also means respect for honest questions isn't required... So let me clarify the issues for the person who insists on clouding the water by talking about masturbation and shoe sizes.

1) I got the saiga for home defense, not becuase anyone told me to or not to. I hope i never have to use it but if i do it will be with a clear conscience to save the lives of people i would give my own life for regardless of what anyone liberal or conservatve or just plain confused says about it.

2) I asked the question specifically to find out what others had done to their saigas for home defense not to suggest that there is a right or a wrong approach for everyone in every situation... i don't know everything about firearms or home protection and am humble enough to respect that there are others far more knowledgable and better trained than myself. I thought that's what this forum was for anyway.

3) If doing this sounds to someone like mental masturbation or is somehow indicative of a particular shoe size to them then I am glad whoever they are out there to wipe up my ejaculate and like it. There'll be plenty for them since I plan on asking many more naive questions and seeking out more infromation about how others have converted their saigas before I've finished. So there will be plenty of that stuff around for you to mop up or lick up if you like. Especially since I have pretty damn big feet!

 

But to some up...

To everyone who offered their opinions (either way) in honesty to someone new to this stuff... Thanks!!!

To the one with some kind of wierd fetish for masturbation and feet... yo momma!!!

[6500rpm 670]

Look at it this way. The two dominating stocks are the ACE and Tromix. Both have the same mounting platform, so you can always add or remove the ACE folding mechanism to your liking with either set up. There are other choices, but these are probably the two most common dyi types on a pistol grip conversion. I do have folders on several of my rifles, the ones I like the least are the Tantal wire and Yugo underfolder. I like the Galil the best, which is pretty much what you get with the ACE/Tromix set up FWIW. The point of your post was home defense and I'd have to say choice of ammo, keeping your head straight, and knowing what your shooting lanes are with family in the house is going to be much more important than stock choice. Just get something that feels and fits well and shoot enough to know how to handle your shotty.

[Azrial 1,091]

.... But to some up...

To everyone who offered their opinions (either way) in honesty to someone new to this stuff... Thanks!!!

To the one with some kind of wierd fetish for masturbation and feet... yo momma!!!

I have no problem with any question, stupid or otherwise. That is one of the big reasons for a site like this, to provide people with information. But that is not what you asked for, you asked for validation for the decision that you had already made, apparently unsure of your rather sophomoric attempt at logic. I never said that you were stupid, until now of course; I was merely trying to point out the obvious. There is no correct answer for everyone.

 

I mean let's get serious, who stores their home defense shotgun, that they might need at a moments notice, with the stock folded? Mine spends more time unfolded then not, but when I transport it, then that feature comes in very handy. It also makes it fit into a smaller carrying package that allows me to carry in a more clandestine fashion. For my application that is important.

 

As Gunfixr pointed out, every now and then you will have an application where reducing the overall length of the weapon and thereby shortening its interval of attack is useful. Would a pistol be more useful in this application, perhaps, but if you don't have a pistol or do not have time to transition to one, that is a moot point. What is for sure is that without a folding stock that you do not even have the option of temporarily reducing your weapons overall length.

 

None of the reasons may be important to you, but they are to me and others, and no amount of pedantic reasoning on your part will change that. That is what makes this thread so funny, you seek to promote a "one size fits all answer" for everyone! I guess so that you will not feel lacking when you unveil your Saiga. How insecure can a "man" be? I mean I have seen a lot of builds here but I have never heard anyone berate another for not having a folding stock!

 

While we are on the subject of insecurity I was speaking of "mental masturbation" but apparently you really whack off while reading the opinions of other men! Whatever, but a bunch of childlike fetish talk from the safety of your keyboard comes across as queerer then a left handed football bat, not to mention cowardly.

[ScottGunn 0]

As for not being able to control it without a solid stock, I don't see the problem with that if using in an emegency situation. It may be a little different situation, but my HK UMP .45 (and many other high powered sub-guns) has a foldable stock and I can put a full 25 round clip firing full auto on a 5' x 5' target at 20 yards. That .45 auto is not quite the kick of a 12 gauge, but 25 of them in full auto is much harder to control.

 

Maybe its not overly practical, but the shorter overal weapon is much easier to stick around corners and such if you do have an intruder.

 

1 Intruder

1 Saiga 12

1 20 rd magazine

=

1 hell of a home remodeling job afterwards

[MadMax 0]

I started figuring out how guns work when I was 11. I enlisted into the Marines on a Combat Arms contract on my 17th birthday, and I used my GI Bill to get a degree in Mechanical Engineering. Now I won't claim to be a gun guru by anybody's standards but I do have a few opinions of my own on guns and don't really look for validation anywhere but the range.

 

The first reason I started looking at the Saiga-12 was because it is the only currently made semi-auto 12 guage which can take a folding stock. The reason I wanted one with a folding stock was to have a reliable semi-auto 12 guage which would fit in a traveling case which does not appear to carry guns. I travel with, at a minimum, the Saiga, either a FAL Para or a SOCOM-16 in an adapted BM-59 alpine stock, and a couple good handguns. All of this fits in a cheap, tennis racket bag.

 

For the home, and even on the road after I have returned to my room for the night, I keep it with the stock un-folded, magazine in, safety on.

[Ronswin 26]

I was at the same 3-gun event Gunfixr was in and I did the exact same thing in the car seat stage. Ace stock folded with pistol grips forward and rear using an MD drum with #5 shot. Completely controllable and highly maneuverable in the close confines of something like a car. I've also used the stock folded for stages where CQB or limited room was a factor and once I shot "Gangsta-style" held sideways (not recommended) when I had to engage a close target from behind a barracade. With the stock folded and a drum or 10 round stick mag the Saiga 12 feels like pretty much like a Thompson SMG without the buttstock. The Russians also had a detachable buttstock and replacement rear pistol grip option for their Saiga 12's.