DrScud 0 Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi guys - I am new to the forum, and this is my virgin-post, so here goes: I just got my new Saiga 12, and I love it. I only got it last night, but I've already followed the bolt-smoothing instrux from Mike (THANKS) and it has helped the gun tremendously already! THANKS! this forum has already answered all my questions about this shotgun, except for ONE... 1) IS THERE A WAY TO MAKE THE BOLT HOLD OPEN ONCE THE MAG IS EMPTY???? Since the bolt MUST be open to load a full mag, It would seem very logical for it to do so - While I absolutely love this design, the re-loading flaw (vis-a-vis no auto-hold-open) is literally the only one downfall of the weapon I can find. 2) A few different people have told me that the 10 and 12 round mags from SureFire and AGP DO cause the bolt to hold open, once emptied... ARE THEY WRONG?? Having stripped and inspected every little piece of this gun a number of times now, I have the feeling the people are WRONG on the above: I can't see any way a magazine can affect the bolt-open detent.. if anyone can help me understand this better (and affirm or refute point 2 above) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 (edited) Welcome. Designing an auto BHO isn't trivial, but forum member Cobra762 is working on one. The S-12 loads just like an AK. Guys that are accustomed to AKs don't have much trouble with it, whereas the AR guys usually do. No mags will cause the S-12 bolt to lock open on empty. Edit to add: Newer models have the Manual BHO. Does yours? Also there are the notched Safety levers. Edited December 9, 2008 by BobAsh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
starman 1 Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Dr Scud What is the bolt-smoothing instructions from Mike about? Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BUFF_dragon 3 Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Do a search on LRBHO and you will learn all you need to know Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrScud 0 Posted December 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Hi there.. Mine DOES have the manual BHO, it came with it stock out of the box. That said, I still didn't see any parts extending forward into the mag cavity, which would cause HO upon spending last round - I'm glad my intuition was correct... How close is cobra to completing it- how will it work? Last question: I saw a video of a different Saiga shotgun on you-tube.. it talked about a model 12-s (not the regular "12" model) and the different features were notable: 1) Looked like it DID have an AutoBHO 2) dust cover was HINGED frontside onto receiver - All other AK variants I've seen never had a hinged dust cover Is this a diferent model? Or am I just imagining things?? thanks! Welcome. Designing an auto BHO isn't trivial, but forum member Cobra762 is working on one. The S-12 loads just like an AK. Guys that are accustomed to AKs don't have much trouble with it, whereas the AR guys usually do. No mags will cause the S-12 bolt to lock open on empty. Edit to add: Newer models have the Manual BHO. Does yours? Also there are the notched Safety levers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Young 175 Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 (edited) Just to add to BobAsh's reply... the manual BHO is the little silver tab that protrudes just beside your stock trigger guard. I have found it very easy to operate by simply dropping the saiga from shooting position straight down and placing the stock against my right thigh. Then, I use my right hand in a hand-shake-like motion, hook my right thumb over the charging lever, pull back, and I can reach the BHO tab with my index or middle finger quite easily. Just my technique.... I'm sure everyone has developed their own. Edited December 9, 2008 by TR Young Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 Examples of dyi notched safety lever and a simple 1" extension to mag release that allows you to easily hit it with your finger from the side or hand from the bottom. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Young 175 Posted December 9, 2008 Report Share Posted December 9, 2008 6500rpm, what is the extra tab that is on the safety lever for? Just to engage/disengage the safety easier? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
adavid02 0 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Ugh I have an AGP mag that holds the bolt open when empty.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I am currently waiting on samples of the new mags that are being made for the S-12, in order to make sure they are going to work with my design. I ran into issues with the AGP mags, due to the difference in construction from the factory mags it was designed to work with. That has now been resolved. Next I need to see these new mags to be sure, before I mass produce these things, that people will be able to use them too. It's looking like early 2009 for release....hopefully very early. If people would stop coming out with new F'king mags it would help a lot! lol Either way...I'm not waiting any more after these. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Ugh I have an AGP mag that holds the bolt open when empty.... That's because your follower has slipped up past the stops. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
starman 1 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 BUFF Dragon: I did a search on LRBHO and all I got was your post. What did I do wrong? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 A few quick things-the s12 with the railed cover offered outside the U.S. does have a LRBHO, but it's propriatory to work with mags specific to that gun. If you do a forum search, 99% of what your going to find has to deal with Shannon's venture which is ever changing due to the introduction of different mags, drums, and possible magwells. If you're new here you can bet that at some point, there will be a LRBHO available, but not until it's a dependable design. That takes time and research. Try to give the o'l boy a break because he wants to release something that's 100% reliable that you'll be happy with once you have it. Members whined about drums, one company rushed out and produced theirs, another took time and released it several months later-guess what one has happy customers and positive reviews (MD). Good things come to those who wait, until then keep reading and tinkering with what's available and let the good times roll. And yes TR Young, that extension in the pic is just something to push, or hook with your index finger that I made and spot welded on. "Like" levers offered by a few companies for sale, also some bolt on mag catch extensions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
okent 0 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Cobra are you talking about the surefire mags? I keep hoping that the new Saiga 12S mags will filter into the US along with some magwell versions. I can't figure out why the 12S can't be imported if the Russians put a straight stock on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrScud 0 Posted December 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Ugh I have an AGP mag that holds the bolt open when empty.... And it does it with no modifications? On an unmodified saiga12 ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Ugh I have an AGP mag that holds the bolt open when empty.... And it does it with no modifications? On an unmodified saiga12 ? It's a defective follower. Some of them are like that. I even have a couple of factory mags that will do that if you let them 'pop' up by pushing down with your finger and releasing quickly. It has nothing to do with the firearm or whether it's 'modified' or not. It is also nothing desirable. It doesn't do the same thing as a true LRBHO. It may work like a LRBHO AK rifle mag for a little while (until the bolt finally damages the follower or mag body beyond repair), but it's useless except for just telling you when you're empty (which you can easily figure out by pulling the trigger, or just counting your shots). The real purpose of a LRBHO is not just to please the range master. That's what the manual BHO is for. If you do it right, you can even use the manual BHO to hold the bolt back while you are firing your last round in the mag. You have to count your rounds down and push the button while squeezing off the last shot. THIS will give you the same advantage as the LRBHO is intended to give. It will make it easier to do a quick mag change without having to lock it back manually or load on a closed bolt by compressing the mag spring. On my design, the follower comes up and trips a lever that locks the bolt back automatically after the last shell in the mag is fired.\ It's coming guys. I have videos of it in action. They suck and I've been trying to find time to film some more. If I can find a way to edit the ones I made three years ago, and the new ones from Oct and Nov, and figure out how to post them on youtube or photobucket, I'll post them here on the forum. Til then y'all are just gonna have to trust me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 I have been playing around with my manual bolt catch, I found that I can force it up two ways, my S12 is converted to the orig pistol grip config and I can push my finger up and force the bolt to lock back, the other method is I grab the bolt with my thumb, force it back and then with the bolt all the way back I use my middle finger to bring the catch up, let the bolt come forware till locked, then swap out mags... hope that makes sense. I have been practicing reloading for my next 3gun match. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 (edited) Ugh I have an AGP mag that holds the bolt open when empty.... And it does it with no modifications? On an unmodified saiga12 ? The mag is damaged, the bolt will drop when the mag is removed. Kind of useless for rapid reloading like that! Now with the notched selector, you might have something... Edited December 10, 2008 by Azrial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrScud 0 Posted December 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Looks like sound logic to me. I just want it SOONER! Again, I've been meaining to buy a Saiga for some time (not upset I paid alot either!) however while it's SWEET as hell, I have 2 primary complaints out of the gate: 1) No LRBHO is just plain stupid. Especially since Izmash produces their own (very much WORKING version) on the EXP 30, I'm sure if they gave a shit, it could be easily retrofitted from the factory. I love the gun, but in factory-new condition, I consider it "reload-crippled" 2) Some of the machining leaves a bit to be desired, for sure. Maybe this is an understatement to some, but IMHO, I'm not too pissed off because I enjoy working with my hands and I have no problem grabbing my polishing wheel & dremel to make it nice and smooth. Kudos to Mike for that awesome pictorial and info on what surfaces to smooth - this Saiga 12 forum is a nice little resource! Anyhow, I'm very excited to check out Cobras new part, once its ready and shipping. If you're new here you can bet that at some point, there will be a LRBHO available, but not until it's a dependable design. That takes time and research. Try to give the o'l boy a break because he wants to release something that's 100% reliable that you'll be happy with once you have it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
prexigrass 0 Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 (edited) Dr Scud What is the bolt-smoothing instructions from Mike about? Thanks I would assume this is the thread he was referring to. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=20234 Edited December 11, 2008 by prexigrass Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vampler 0 Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Ugh I have an AGP mag that holds the bolt open when empty.... Then you might want to send it in for warranty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vitamink 90 Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 ...he probably did...2 years ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulyski 2,227 Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 ...1) IS THERE A WAY TO MAKE THE BOLT HOLD OPEN ONCE THE MAG IS EMPTY???? Since the bolt MUST be open to load a full mag, It would seem very logical for it to do so - While I absolutely love this design, the re-loading flaw (vis-a-vis no auto-hold-open) is literally the only one downfall of the weapon I can find... Ancient, dead thread, as I noticed, but I'd already started replying, so I'm gonna continue. The bolt does not need to be open to load a full mag, even with a factory S-12... it just takes some effort to compress the top shell against the bolt and lock the mag in. Since having my bolt, (bolt carrier, fcg, etc), mirror polished, refined, and relieved by Lone Star Arms, it's pretty easy to load any and all full mags on a closed bolt. This is the modification that I recommend, rather than waiting on a LRBHO that's probably several months away from being offered for sale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IronRonin 19 Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Like Cobra said, I manually use the existing BHO as a LRBHO by pressing it in on my last shot. I manage to finagle this on an UNconverted gun by using two fingers, so I can only imagine how easy it is to do on a restored gun with the trigger in the proper position. I would suggest trying this, and I think that it is intended to be used in this manner based on how easily it works. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Etek 32 Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Two year old post. (Sigh) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 And yet still no LRBHO even after 2 years. Doesn't really bother me though as any AK I have ever used has not had one. Not to mention the H&Ks that don't have one either. Simple is where AKs shine and I doubt I will bother with a LRBHO even if Cobra releases a solid design. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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