Are Saiga's considered clones?

[DLT 1,646]

Not a clone in my opinion for a few reasons: 1. came out of the same Russian factory where the various military AK variants for the Russian army are built. 2. Mr Kalashnikov works at this factory. 3. Back in 1996 Mr. Kalashnikov said that non-Russian and non-Izhmash built rifles were NOT AK's in his eyes.

 

I figure whatever Mr. Kalashnikov says, should be the standard. He is after all, THE MAN.

 

But I also don't consider Saigas AK's because lets face it, they are not. They are more like a brother to an AK. Same papa, and mama as the AK, but not an AK.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

Maybe an AK in hiding

[Blue Frost 1]

I think I saw a Winchester made in the 20's that looked just like an Ak , maybe the AK is a clone.

I know it's a rip off of a German design gun.

Funny thing is, is a lot of today's guns are clones of some model.

[Darth AkSarBen 20]

[RoughRider666 47]

What the hell does the word, "clone" have to do with a firearm? Believe me, if they could be "cloned" I would not be forced to buy them!

 

well said AZ! nothing like true logic at its finest!

[Frankyoz 15]

Even though this is an old thread I'll add my 2 cents. Is a Camaro base version not a camaro because its not an SS or a mustang not a real mustang if it isnt a GT or Cobra? Thats how I look at it diffrent models in diffrent trim.

[usmc_308 0]

Absolutely not. In my opinion I think that Saigas are the closest thing to a real Ak that we can get. Now the pieces of junk that Century Arms put out are a joke.

[L5K 162]

To me they are all AK's. No "clone" or anything of the sort, just different variants but they are all AK's. Look at all the AR-15's out there. When I see one, I say, "That's an AR." I don't get into a hissy fit because it doesn't say Armalite on the side.

[bobsolla 7]

If my understanding is correct, weren't the first AK's milled as opposed to stamped?

 

yes they were,but do to changes in design,cost and time to maufacture they went to stamped metal.

[bobsolla 7]

I'd like to thank the 12 idiots who voted yes for helping give the brady campaign one more reason to try and ban this firearm.

 

screw all those basterd`s at the brady campaign!

[L5K 162]

If my understanding is correct, weren't the first AK's milled as opposed to stamped?

 

yes they were,but do to changes in design,cost and time to maufacture they went to stamped metal.

 

 

Actually the original design was for a stamped receiver. Soviet manufacturing facilities were not set up to produce them in high quantities, so they substituted a milled receiver for the first issued rifles. Later, they changed to the cheaper original intention of using stamped receivers.

[elia.jon1 1]

 

I know it's a rip off of a German design gun.

 

 

 

funny thing about this, everyone says it, us gun shows say this....but the one on history with M. Kalashnikov he says this pisses him off, it doesn't use the same action even tho they sort of look like each other that isn't where his idea came from......the man said this was b.s. now other people say he ripped them off......he says the idea he took from the germans was giving each comrade a way to lay down full auto fire and overwhelm an opponent

[L5K 162]

Yeah, STG44 and the AK47 are entirely different. It is only in their function that they are similar, and function dictates form, therefore they look similar. The STG44 and the AK47 are as similar as an AK47 and the M16. All three of them have a buttstock, all three of them have a pistol grip, and all three have detachable high capacity magazines that are placed in front of the trigger guard, and rear of the foregrip on the underside of the rifle.

[Bladed 1]

From what I have read Mr. K himself reworked the AK designs to work for the Saiga -12, so being He designed the Saiga -12, it is an AK.

[Ermac 8]

I would say MK got the idea of the bolt carrier and piston as one piece from the STG44.

[YEL13 3]

from what I understood it the Klashnikov design uses several previous firearms as influences, it was an innovative design, and a simplistic (albeit highly effective both in cost of manufacture and inteded purpose) one, but nothing necessairly new, just a combination of several very good ideas that were combined thanks to MK into an excellent rifle with amazing reliability

[Marrok857 51]

If my understanding is correct, weren't the first AK's milled as opposed to stamped?

 

yes they were,but do to changes in design,cost and time to maufacture they went to stamped metal.

 

 

Actually the original design was for a stamped receiver. Soviet manufacturing facilities were not set up to produce them in high quantities, so they substituted a milled receiver for the first issued rifles. Later, they changed to the cheaper original intention of using stamped receivers.

 

 

 

The first ones were stamped, they milled some for a while but even for soviet standards it costs way to much. They would start with an 11 pound block of steel and through something like 125 milling ops later it would weigh only 2.5 pounds.

 

I watched "and have" the history channels "Tales of the gun" several times and memorized alot of it. Mr. Kalashnikov makes it a point saying that the original AK47 design was never based on the German Stermgewer (if it spelled it wrong ). He would argue that fact till he dies.

 

 

[VaiFanatic90 360]

If my understanding is correct, weren't the first AK's milled as opposed to stamped?

 

yes they were,but do to changes in design,cost and time to maufacture they went to stamped metal.

 

 

Actually the original design was for a stamped receiver. Soviet manufacturing facilities were not set up to produce them in high quantities, so they substituted a milled receiver for the first issued rifles. Later, they changed to the cheaper original intention of using stamped receivers.

 

 

 

The first ones were stamped, they milled some for a while but even for soviet standards it costs way to much. They would start with an 11 pound block of steel and through something like 125 milling ops later it would weigh only 2.5 pounds.

 

I watched "and have" the history channels "Tales of the gun" several times and memorized alot of it. Mr. Kalashnikov makes it a point saying that the original AK47 design was never based on the German Stermgewer (if it spelled it wrong ). He would argue that fact till he dies.

 

Granted, I'd still love a Sturmgewehr, but they are pricey when you find them. There are the CETME's but most folks don't seem to fond of them.

[Marrok857 51]

If my understanding is correct, weren't the first AK's milled as opposed to stamped?

 

yes they were,but do to changes in design,cost and time to maufacture they went to stamped metal.

 

 

Actually the original design was for a stamped receiver. Soviet manufacturing facilities were not set up to produce them in high quantities, so they substituted a milled receiver for the first issued rifles. Later, they changed to the cheaper original intention of using stamped receivers.

 

 

 

The first ones were stamped, they milled some for a while but even for soviet standards it costs way to much. They would start with an 11 pound block of steel and through something like 125 milling ops later it would weigh only 2.5 pounds.

 

I watched "and have" the history channels "Tales of the gun" several times and memorized alot of it. Mr. Kalashnikov makes it a point saying that the original AK47 design was never based on the German Stermgewer (if it spelled it wrong ). He would argue that fact till he dies.

 

Granted, I'd still love a Sturmgewehr, but they are pricey when you find them. There are the CETME's but most folks don't seem to fond of them.

 

Would rather have a Thompson then a Sturmgewehr. Nothing says "get off my lawn" like a 45 spitting monster.

[VaiFanatic90 360]

If my understanding is correct, weren't the first AK's milled as opposed to stamped?

 

yes they were,but do to changes in design,cost and time to maufacture they went to stamped metal.

 

 

Actually the original design was for a stamped receiver. Soviet manufacturing facilities were not set up to produce them in high quantities, so they substituted a milled receiver for the first issued rifles. Later, they changed to the cheaper original intention of using stamped receivers.

 

 

 

The first ones were stamped, they milled some for a while but even for soviet standards it costs way to much. They would start with an 11 pound block of steel and through something like 125 milling ops later it would weigh only 2.5 pounds.

 

I watched "and have" the history channels "Tales of the gun" several times and memorized alot of it. Mr. Kalashnikov makes it a point saying that the original AK47 design was never based on the German Stermgewer (if it spelled it wrong ). He would argue that fact till he dies.

 

Granted, I'd still love a Sturmgewehr, but they are pricey when you find them. There are the CETME's but most folks don't seem to fond of them.

 

Would rather have a Thompson then a Sturmgewehr. Nothing says "get off my lawn" like a 45 spitting monster.

 

Honestly, I think if a person was staring down the barrel of either two, they'd be equally intimidated.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

If my understanding is correct, weren't the first AK's milled as opposed to stamped?

 

yes they were,but do to changes in design,cost and time to maufacture they went to stamped metal.

 

 

Actually the original design was for a stamped receiver. Soviet manufacturing facilities were not set up to produce them in high quantities, so they substituted a milled receiver for the first issued rifles. Later, they changed to the cheaper original intention of using stamped receivers.

 

 

 

The first ones were stamped, they milled some for a while but even for soviet standards it costs way to much. They would start with an 11 pound block of steel and through something like 125 milling ops later it would weigh only 2.5 pounds.

 

I watched "and have" the history channels "Tales of the gun" several times and memorized alot of it. Mr. Kalashnikov makes it a point saying that the original AK47 design was never based on the German Stermgewer (if it spelled it wrong ). He would argue that fact till he dies.

 

Granted, I'd still love a Sturmgewehr, but they are pricey when you find them. There are the CETME's but most folks don't seem to fond of them.

 

Would rather have a Thompson then a Sturmgewehr. Nothing says "get off my lawn" like a 45 spitting monster.

 

Except perhaps a converted restored S-12 loaded with 20 rnds of buck/slugs.

 

 

If we're talking selective fire rifles, I'd take a true AK-103 over a Thompson or Sturmgewehr. It's a far more capable weapon, and at least as intimidating.

 

ymmv.

Edited August 4, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[Marrok857 51]

This is one thing I never got with most people that are "Saiga worshipers" here. You say converted then cross that out and say restored. If the Saiga was made in the factory as a "hunting rifle/gun" then you add a bunch of stuff (stocks, rails lights, ect...) isnt that technically converting it from a hunting rifle to an AK look alike?

 

I always took the definition of converting as adding new parts or changing the internals of something. Also took restoring as taking something that is old, say a Hawkins black powder rifle and restoring it to a like new firearm.

 

Just my 2 drachma, gunna need it for the Charon after the ass chewing Iam gonna receive.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Marrok

[308SAIGA 55]

IMO the only reason the Saiga comes into this country in a sporting style rifle is because pistol grip rifles are not allowed to be imported anymore... If they could then we would not have to convert them under the 922r regulations....

 

 

So no they are not clones..... The Mak90 is a clone of the Actual AK47 rifle....

[308SAIGA 55]

This is one thing I never got with most people that are "Saiga worshipers" here. You say converted then cross that out and say restored. If the Saiga was made in the factory as a "hunting rifle/gun" then you add a bunch of stuff (stocks, rails lights, ect...) isnt that technically converting it from a hunting rifle to an AK look alike?

 

I always took the definition of converting as adding new parts or changing the internals of something. Also took restoring as taking something that is old, say a Hawkins black powder rifle and restoring it to a like new firearm.

 

Just my 2 drachma, gunna need it for the Charon after the ass chewing Iam gonna receive.

 

+1 When restoring a rifle you restore to it's original state of importation, changing out parts is converting using, in this case, USA made parts....

[Marrok857 51]

This is one thing I never got with most people that are "Saiga worshipers" here. You say converted then cross that out and say restored. If the Saiga was made in the factory as a "hunting rifle/gun" then you add a bunch of stuff (stocks, rails lights, ect...) isnt that technically converting it from a hunting rifle to an AK look alike?

 

I always took the definition of converting as adding new parts or changing the internals of something. Also took restoring as taking something that is old, say a Hawkins black powder rifle and restoring it to a like new firearm.

 

Just my 2 drachma, gunna need it for the Charon after the ass chewing Iam gonna receive.

 

+1 When restoring a rifle you restore to it's original state of importation, changing out parts is converting using, in this case, USA made parts....

 

 

So technically it is converting the rifle, from what you just said. if you were to "restore" it to its original "state of importation" wouldnt you be just adding a new US made hunting stock? As it is in its importation, its a hunting rifle.

 

I am willing to say that the MAK90 and WASR are clones of the original AK, but so is the Saiga. It maybe made in Russia, but Its a new breed of AK, thus a clone or variant which ever way you slice it.

 

 

[308SAIGA 55]

 

+1 When restoring a rifle you restore to it's original state of importation, changing out parts is converting using, in this case, USA made parts....

 

 

So technically it is converting the rifle (Correct), from what you just said. if you were to "restore" it to its original "state of importation" wouldnt you be just adding a new US made hunting stock? No, Restoring is adding the original parts back on not any other part As it is in its importation, its a hunting rifle.

 

I am willing to say that the MAK90 and WASR are clones of the original AK, but so is the Saiga No these are directly from Russia who originally designed the rifle. It maybe made in Russia, but Its a new breed of AK, thus a clone or variant which ever way you slice it.

 

If the Federal Law did not exist these would come as the AK's came..... Clones are look a likes, for example the Mak90 & AK47, The Chinese version of the M14 vs. the USA made and developed in this country.. The PTR-91 and the HK91 German made rifles....

 

Added:

 

You have to remember that anytime that you add 1 USA made part to an imported rifle you HAVE to play the 10 or less game as directed by 922r... If you changed out just the buttstock it would violate Federal Law....

Edited August 4, 2010 by 308saiga

[Marrok857 51]

+1 When restoring a rifle you restore to it's original state of importation, changing out parts is converting using, in this case, USA made parts....

 

 

So technically it is converting the rifle (Correct), from what you just said. if you were to "restore" it to its original "state of importation" wouldnt you be just adding a new US made hunting stock? No, Restoring is adding the original parts back on not any other part As it is in its importation, its a hunting rifle.

 

I am willing to say that the MAK90 and WASR are clones of the original AK, but so is the Saiga No these are directly from Russia who originally designed the rifle. It maybe made in Russia, but Its a new breed of AK, thus a clone or variant which ever way you slice it.

 

If the Federal Law did not exist these would come as the AK's came..... Clones are look a likes, for example the Mak90 & AK47, The Chinese version of the M14 vs. the USA made and developed in this country.. The PTR-91 and the HK91 German made rifles....

 

Added:

 

You have to remember that anytime that you add 1 USA made part to an imported rifle you HAVE to play the 10 or less game as directed by 922r... If you changed out just the buttstock it would violate Federal Law....

 

 

 

So then by what your sayin, which was my original point is that it isnt restoring, your just converting it. Ok, my 2 drachma are in, I now understand what ya mean.

 

 

 

 

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

This is one thing I never got with most people that are "Saiga worshipers" here. You say converted then cross that out and say restored. If the Saiga was made in the factory as a "hunting rifle/gun" then you add a bunch of stuff (stocks, rails lights, ect...) isnt that technically converting it from a hunting rifle to an AK look alike?

 

I always took the definition of converting as adding new parts or changing the internals of something. Also took restoring as taking something that is old, say a Hawkins black powder rifle and restoring it to a like new firearm.

 

Just my 2 drachma, gunna need it for the Charon after the ass chewing Iam gonna receive.

 

+1 When restoring a rifle you restore to it's original state of importation, changing out parts is converting using, in this case, USA made parts....

 

"original state of importation"? Don't you mean, "original state of manufacture and/or design"? That makes a helluva lot more sense to me and it certainly more directly applies to Saigas, because they had to be bastardized simply to satisfy the unconstitutional and arbitrary whims of "our" glorious BATFE; not because of any practical reason related to the weapons' function.

 

The reason that I refer to it as restoring a Saiga "sporter", rather than converting it is because you are restoring the weapon, (to one degree or another), to the way it was originally designed, i.e. with a pistol grip, AK trigger group, (the only reason US parts must be used is due to the nonsense of 922r), in the proper location, etc.. in most cases using the holes in the receiver that were already machined by the factory, since that is the standard, not the bullshit "sporterization" we are subjected to.

 

A Saiga is restored to be closer to the Kalashnikov weapon it was meant to be, rather than the bastardized compromise it's forced to be imported as.

Edited August 5, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[Marrok857 51]

Ok. I still see it as converting it from a sporter rifle to a traditional AK, since your changing a good bit of the weapon. I do see where you guys are coming from with this, dont get me wrong. I guess its just up to your own opinion, and we all know what opinions are like.

[308SAIGA 55]

 

"original state of importation"? Don't you mean,"original state of manufacture and/or design"?(I guess you could look at it that way, even though if the design is in a PG configuration it is not allowed into this country, hence the term importation That makes a helluva lot more sense to me and it certainly more directly applies to Saigas, because they had to be bastardized simply to satisfy the unconstitutional and arbitrary whims of "our" glorious BATFE; not because of any practical reason related to the weapons' function. [/b] again, it is NOT BATFE that puts laws into place it is the Federal Gov. they may have had something to do with it, but again they did not sign the BILL

 

The reason that I refer to it as restoring a Saiga "sporter", rather than converting it is because you are restoring the weapon, (to one degree or another), to the way it was originally designed, i.e. with a pistol grip, AK trigger group, (the only reason US parts must be used is due to the nonsense of 922r), in the proper location, etc.. in most cases using the holes in the receiver that were already machined by the factory, since that is the standard, not the bullshit "sporterization" we are subjected to.

 

A Saiga is restored to be closer to the Kalashnikov weapon it was meant to be, rather than the bastardized compromise it's forced to be imported as.

 

I do understand you thought and frustration, but read the definition of both words, you will see you are wrong, and just because you want it to be what you are saying it is still wrong......

 

You can always use original Russian parts for your X39 and for the 5.45 and restore it to a AK. The only issue with this it may be illegal....

 

Whatever you think, whatever you do good luck....