Idea for a New Project

[Tokageko 8]

I've been pondering the idea of the whole tactical-short-barreled-magazine-fed-semi-auto-12-gauge-thing. What I've come up with, is that even 2 3/4 inch shells are over-powered for an entry gun. So, what I've got here are some pictures of Aguila 12 gauge mini-shells next to an AK47 magazine for comparison. I'm 99.99% positive that this will require a new made magazine, but I think it's a good concept none-the-less.

 

Edit: Ok... so I can't upload the files... no big deal. I'll try to give you a description instead. A stack of ten mini-shells (lined up on the floor) is about as long as a thrity-round AK47 magazine. The magazine would have to be wider to accomodate a single stack of 12 gauge shells, but not by much. The proposed magazine would also be about half the depth (um.. width when looking at it from the side). The finished product should look like an MP5 magazine on steroids.

 

I'm not sure exactly what type of gun you could modify to handle this. I did some measurements on an AR15 mag-well, and found that 12 gauge shells fit through it nicely (up to 2 3/4 inch). If the inside of the magazine well could be opened up a bit, there would be room for the magazine also; assuming the walls of the magazine aren't too thick. I would think that a block could be put in the front of the mag-well to shorten it to the correct length for my proposed magazine, and possibly act as a feed ramp. If the same magazine catch (as the AR) could be kept, reloading time would be cut down considerably. Besides, it would cut down on the modifications necessary for the AR lower receiver, which is a fine peice of engineering in and of itself.

 

I don't know if any one method of operation would be better than another for this, but I've always been a fan of gas operation with a short-stroke piston. Although I would geuss that since only one size of shells could be used in it, a direct blow-back system could also work. The only problem with that is that weapons using that system tend to be heavier than their gas operated counterparts.

 

What do you guys think of this? Worth trying? Any suggestions/comments? Anyone willing to build something like this? Think it could get a military contract?

 

Thanks for your input.

Edited January 23, 2005 by Tokageko

[IndyArms 10,186]

With the mini shells, would you get enough gas pressure to cycle the action properly??? or do you plan to go with a mag fed "pump" type action???

 

I hear a lot of folks having trouble with the (curse the term) "Light loads" as it is... I would only have concerns that any "lighter" might not cycle...

 

any compensation for this in your plan??? lighter springs?? or??

 

what ya think??

 

[Bvamp 604]

you would have to open the gas ports up so much that 3" shells would probably be a no-no in the gun after that...also, the minishells are really for tube fed pump guns, so as to get more of them in one magazine load. great concept for a 3 gun match if one uses a pump gun...

[Tokageko 8]

Well, the story according to Aguila is that the mini-shells are loaded to the same pressure standards as a regular 2 3/4 inch shell. I don't know about the actual difference, but I would geuss that they use slightly less powder than normal shell, but remember, normal shells don't use much powder anyway. Seeing as how this gun would be purpose designed to use the mini-shells, I'm not sure it would make much of a difference whether or not 3" shells would cycle in it. Of course, there is a possibility (just now think I figured out what you were talking about) that if the block in the front of the AR15 mag-well was removable, it would then be possible to use magazines made for the 2 3/4" shells also. In this case, I would say that an adjustable gas system like the one on the FAL would probably solve the problem. I think it would be interesting to see if a mini-shell would cycle the stock saiga 12 action. I would recomend single loading it, without a magazine, and firing. If the shell ejects, we may have a winner. If it doesn't, then it would probably need to be modified.

 

In order to keep something like that (a gun capable of firing both the mini-shells and regular shells), it might be better to use a shorter gas system, similar to the one found on the M1 Carbine. By tapping gas closer to the chamber and using a stronger spring, with the afore-mentioned gas regulator, you could probably minimize reliability issues. As far as actual design of the gas system, the gas chamber (as I'm envisioning it) should be relatively long, requiring a greater volume of gas to enter before the piston is actuated. That's pretty close to how the M1 garand works, in relation to other gas guns. The only thing I would change about it would be the addition of gas ports on the gas cylinder, which would only be available to the gases after the piston had been actuated. With the Garand, there are no gas ports in the cylinder- all of the gas that is bled off of the gas system is pushed back into the barrel and out through the muzzle during/after the action is cycled. Theoretically, this should reduce fouling and increase reliability somewhat.

 

As far as a manual mode, I would prefer having a charging handle on the either the top, or the left side of the receiver. I would not however want a "single shot" mode on this weapon (effectively turning it into a bolt action). It would be nice to have a follower actuated bolt hold open also. Again, it would be perfect if the entire AR15 lower receiver could be used, with the exception of needing a damned spring in the buttstock. Although, if it were necessary, I could live with it.

 

Oh, and I'll be damned if it ends up having just a plain bead front sight... Oh no, this is going to be a protected ghost ring rear sight, with a protected blade type front sight (possibly with a fiber optic insert). Of course, having a rail of some kind for a red dot sight would probably be good too, but I think that would be it. Maybe..... maybe... a tactical light.

[Bvamp 604]

well if that is the case, what about a magazine with a feed ramp? also, what is the gain in using the minishells in a stick magazine?

[Tokageko 8]

As I see it, they would be lighter and less bulky as compared to 5 or 8 round Saiga 12 mags. You would be able to carry more ammo- same principle behind switching from 7.62 Nato to 5.56 Nato. As with the original design on the M16, this is meant to be a special purpose weapon, rather than a do-it-all wonder weapon... as they tried to turn the M16 into.

Edited January 24, 2005 by Tokageko

[Dtmarms 0]

If you want to reinvent the wheel why not go with a helical feed mag (calico) but the proverbial wheel is round for a damn good reason the powers the be might not take too kindly to a 30-40 round semi-scattergun but I do think, no ,I KNOW it would be about the coolest thing I have ever seen WAY too much fun to be legal!!!!!

[Steven 0]

you mean like this?

 

this one is a pump mini-shell shotgun however.....

 

http://www.autoweapons.com/photosv/nbattle7.html

[Tokageko 8]

Yeah, that's actually the weapon that got me thinking of this, but I would rather it be a carbine than a handgun, not to mention semi-auto. I don't even want to the of trying to shoot a 12 gauge handgun effectively. So, for controlability and rapid fire capability, I would still go with a buttstock (folding? collapsable? maybe) and a pistol grip, with a 16 inch barrel. As far as drum magazines go.. I think they are more of a hassle than they are worth. What I'm thinking of is going for less bulky and lighter weight. I envision a weapon like this being used for house to house fighting, patrol and gaurd duties, REMF armament, etc. Though, it would probably be good for tactical shotgun matches also (assuming one could get a company to run off at least a hundred of them).

 

I've been working on a template for the magazine. My current thought is to build them out of aluminum. The rest of it so far consists of the aforementioned AR15 lower receiver assembly and a modified M14 gas system. Any ideas? Thoughts? Questions?

[Hutch 0]

LOL, wouldnt some one try and use a registerd M-16 reciver eventually on that? that would be funny as hell! a light, automatic mini-12 shotgun!

[Tokageko 8]

Yeah, it would definately be cool. Although I'm not sure I can see a legitimate need for it to have full-auto capability, but it would be pretty damn fun. Just have to get some materials, do some more design work and see if I can build it.... or get someone else to build it.

[G O B 3,516]

A full auto 12-ga. needs some kind of backpack flex-tube mag, 100 round minimum! Screw crowd controll - let's go for crowd ELIMINATION!

 

G O B

[Tokageko 8]

.....

 

 

I think I'm going to pretend I didn't hear that.....

 

 

.....

[IndyArms 10,186]

*I* heard it!!!!