Now this is weird My Saiga did better than my M4gery!

[imarangemaster 315]

Well, I took out my DPMS M4gery I just built for the first time today to sight it in. I used the same tree I used for shooting my Saiga 223 a couple days ago for a rest. The M4 is a flat top with a 1/7" twist chrome lined Wilson barrel. Instead of the M4 stock, it had a fixed A2 stock for now. I have an ARMS clone fold down BUIS, as well as a reflex sight (just a $50 NC Star). I did not bring out enough ammo to sight in the reflex sight, so I did not use it today It will be set up to co-witness, but that will be tomorrow!

 

I just used the iron sight and I did a battle sight of 2.2 CM below POA for the 0-2 aperture, just like the old M16A1 target (which is what I used). What was surprising is that at 75 to 100 yards with the BUIS, I actually did not do as well with the M4 as I did with the 223 Saiga with its iron sights shooting at the same distances and pine cones, etc!

 

I used the same Golden Bear 62 grn OTBT Russian 223 in both the Saiga and this M4gery. I have used Silver bear 62s in another M4 before, and they were better than Wolf, but not as good as LC M193 or M855, especially from the 1/7" twist.

 

Granted, this was not a scientific, controlled bench rest session. It was, however, a practical, braced off hand in the woods, blasting semi rapid fire from behind cover. The Siaga is a Russian rifle, shooting the Russian ammo it was designed for, that may help some. Another factor is the Saiga AK sights. Unlike some folks, I happen to really like the sight picture on the AK. Also, the Saiga with the Tapco T6 with SAW grip just seemed to "fit" better! The A2 stock on the M4 is a little too long, the length of pull is about 1" to 1 1/2" longer than the setting I use on the Saiga M4. I have a shorter M16A1 stock I will try, but will probably have to get an M4 stock for the M4. The Saiga just seemed to pop up on target quicker, and hit more off-hand!

 

Gotta love the Saiga .223! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[SickMAK90 0]

I too like my Saiga .223 BUT I do not shoot it better than my 16'' Middy RRA AR15 with 6 position stock. The saiga sights are better made and easier to use than my WASR-2's but still not a peep. However, the saiga was close to AR15 accuracy at 50 yards. I did not test it a longer range. I was going to convert my Saiga but I may leave it alone. Probably throw some g2 triggers stuff in there and get some magazines and call it a day. I have always wanted a gun with a normal stock and big magazines for some reason.

 

The saiga seems to have more recoil. Both are minimal but the huge AK bolt causes more recoil than the AR.

Edited December 26, 2008 by SickMAK90

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Well, a 1:7 twist barrel is way too steep for everything short of a tracer.....so it's not surprising. Leave that to the armchair ARFCOM guys.

 

Tony

[SickMAK90 0]

62gr should be ok from a 1:7.

 

What twist is the saiga?

[imarangemaster 315]

The 1/7" M4gery I had before really like 62 grainers (62 JSP Barnaul Silver Bear) 1.5-2 MOA with 4x AR scope on a handle mount. I got the 1/7" this time because I plan on reloading some 75-77 grain stuff and also adding a scope: maybe a Tasco tri-rail 2x6 tactical. That's why I left the A2 stock on it, as I figured it would be a short scoped gun.

 

The Saiga is probably something like 1/9. I will check today.

 

 

I have played with both again, and I really think the LOP is just wrong with the A2 stock. We'll see what happens when I sight in the co-witnessed reflex sight today or tomorrow.

 

NOTE EDITED ABOVE. The 1 1/2 to 2 MOA was actually done with a 4x scope, not iron sights. Those were the two BEST groups. It opened up some after barrel got warm. When I re-read my post, I realized I mis-remembered it being iron sights! It was an old timers moment.

Edited December 26, 2008 by imarangemaster

[imarangemaster 315]

Update:

 

I set up the red dot reflex on the M4gery today. The BUIS co-witnesses very nice. I did a battle sight with the 62 grn OTBT Golden Bear. Average group at 25 yards, leaning against a tree was 1 1/2", with several 1" groups with the red dot. I still did better shooting off-hand at 100 with the Saiga and iron sights, however, as opposed to the M4 with the reflex!

 

This is the first time I have tried a reflex. They may be good for CQB, say 50 yards or less, but I personally think they suck at 100! My last M4 had an Aimpoint M2, which did OK at 100. I guess I should have stuck with the original plan and gone with the Tasco 2x6 tactical on the M4.

 

When I get home from house sitting in Mississippi next week, I will mount the TruGlo red/green on the Saiga and see how it does. My wife said the mount came the day after I left. That figures!

 

Oh, by the way: I shot three different Russian 62 grain loads. Barnaul Silver Bear JSPBT and Golden Bear OTBT, as well as Wolf 62 grain HP spitzer. All three grouped to about the same POA on the paper. Both Barnaul loads seemed hotter than the Wolf, though. I would love to do some fragmentation tests on the 62 grain open tips and Soft points. That should make up for the thicker bullet jackets. Maybe I should buy a 50lb box of joint compound (poor man's ballistic gelatin)

[cjive134 0]

I have not had a chance to fire my Saiga yet, but the G2 trigger is much lighter than the one that was on my DPMS AR. The trigger makes a huge difference, and could account for the Saiga beating out the AR. What kind of trigger groups are you using? I had the standard AR lower parts kit from DPMS. As I remember it the RRA kit was a little more, but it had to be better than the one in the DPMS kit. Very heavy pull.

[imarangemaster 315]

I have not had a chance to fire my Saiga yet, but the G2 trigger is much lighter than the one that was on my DPMS AR. The trigger makes a huge difference, and could account for the Saiga beating out the AR. What kind of trigger groups are you using? I had the standard AR lower parts kit from DPMS. As I remember it the RRA kit was a little more, but it had to be better than the one in the DPMS kit. Very heavy pull.

 

You are probably right about the trigger being a factor. The Saiga, while a long trigger pull, is smooth with a slight hesitation just before break, almost a light two-stage military. The DPMS (lower and trigger group) is definitely heavier. If I had to guess, about 6 pounds or more. I will definitely have to stone it down.

 

Years ago I had a retro build (thought it wasn't retro then, because ALL were A1s then) that I meticulously stoned to optimum. It was about 2 to 2 1/2 lbs, with little creep. Using the old M16A1 battle sight target (rectangle with notch in bottom) I shot a 25 yard group with LC 70s ball that was one 1/2" hole. I kept that target, and ended up selling it with the gun years later.

[dobravery 49]

FYI,

Aimsurplus has 75grn Wolf HP in stock and pretty affordable.

[imarangemaster 315]

Wow, I think I need to buy at least a brick of 500 for the M4gery. They should do well in the 1/7. They would probably thump good in the Siaga, too.

[paternoster2012 0]

The NC star scope is probably your problem

 

Why put a $50 scope on a $600 plus rifle?

 

I'm not a gear snob by any means, but I wouldn't put an airsoft scope on a real rifle

 

Pony up for a Burris fast fire, eotech, or aimpoint

 

The fast fire can be found for $150 and less if you bargain hunt

 

My eotech is good out to 100 yards. I don't really target shoot for groups though.

 

I have a flip up rear sight if I need to shoot further

 

Update:

 

I set up the red dot reflex on the M4gery today. The BUIS co-witnesses very nice. I did a battle sight with the 62 grn OTBT Golden Bear. Average group at 25 yards, leaning against a tree was 1 1/2", with several 1" groups with the red dot. I still did better shooting off-hand at 100 with the Saiga and iron sights, however, as opposed to the M4 with the reflex!

 

This is the first time I have tried a reflex. They may be good for CQB, say 50 yards or less, but I personally think they suck at 100! My last M4 had an Aimpoint M2, which did OK at 100. I guess I should have stuck with the original plan and gone with the Tasco 2x6 tactical on the M4.

 

When I get home from house sitting in Mississippi next week, I will mount the TruGlo red/green on the Saiga and see how it does. My wife said the mount came the day after I left. That figures!

 

Oh, by the way: I shot three different Russian 62 grain loads. Barnaul Silver Bear JSPBT and Golden Bear OTBT, as well as Wolf 62 grain HP spitzer. All three grouped to about the same POA on the paper. Both Barnaul loads seemed hotter than the Wolf, though. I would love to do some fragmentation tests on the 62 grain open tips and Soft points. That should make up for the thicker bullet jackets. Maybe I should buy a 50lb box of joint compound (poor man's ballistic gelatin)

[imarangemaster 315]

Your probably right about the NC Star. I had an Aimpoint M2 on my last M4. I will probably wait and put something like a 2x6 Tasco tactical tri-rail on it when I can afford it.

 

I have a Truglo 30 mm Red/Green dot Shotgun sight for the Saiga. They are decent economy scopes, designed for recoil of 3" mag slug guns at 100 yards. Very popular with the deer hunters (slug guns) around here. They run about $60-70. The Busnell red dots run about $95-$100. They are low rise., but even with the low dot KVAR clone mount, you still can't co-witness on the Saiga. You'd need an Ultimac Gas tube mount for that.