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Billyjobob

Saiga 12 Mag Adaption

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Anyone know how to easily get these Saiga 12 five round mags apart? I got to looking at mine the other night and it appears that there MIGHT be extra room in the mag to get a couple more shells in IF one could modify the follower properly.

 

If anyone has already attempted this, please let me know as I don't want to try to reinvent the wheel. It jus looked as though you could possibly fit as many as 8 shells in the existing 5-round mag body IF you could modify it properly. I know you have to leave room for the spring and follower, but exactly how much room is debatable.

 

Any information, diagrams, etc., would be appreciated.

 

I have also been working on a thumbhole stock for an unmodified Saiga 12 which I'll post pictures of when its done. Used a standard AK thumbhole stock for a pattern and the front of the factory stock for the actual Saiga mounting. Turned out pretty cool, however, I am not the wood craftsman that some here are. If I had the proper tools, it would be amazing what could be done!

 

Interestingly enough, the thumbhole stocks are not as difficult as I imagined to create from scratch. Might be worth somebody out there attempting to mass-produce, at least rough blanks, that we could buy and finish for ourselves.

 

Thanks much.

 

Billyjobob

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While I can't help you with your experiment in getting a few extra rounds in, pulling a Saiga-12 magazine apart is as easy as sliding off the bottom of it after depressing that little "peg" that's situated in the center of it (just look at the bottom of one, it's pretty easy to figure out). Watch out sliding the cover completely off it though, the magazine spring can pack quite a punch if you are not careful with where it is pointing. Not trying to be a jacka$$ here, but if you are already having trouble figuring out how to disassemble the Saiga-12's magazine (an easy enough problem even for a total firearms dummy like me), maybe you should re-evaluate your modifying a magazine plan (could prove to be a dangerous proposition!). BTW - (ask yourself this first!) is it even legal to do so where you reside? The BATF&E agents are not known for their senses of humor if they catch you doing something they don't like. :eek:

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yehp, modifiying any magazine, especially a shotgun detachable magazine is a violation of federal law. class B felony i believe. go figure right? you cant even shave an ak-47 drum mag to fit the newer AK's. thats not even taking it apart, just filing it a little bit to fit into the magazine well. only pre-ban shotguns with the tube mags can be extended by law. sorry bro. thats one of the big AND obvious no-nos.

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Gaddis, I defer to your superior knowledge and attitude. Clearly, you know all. That is exactly why I asked as I knew I could count on you to answer any question and thus avoid any unnecessary damage to one of my spare mags. Thanks much for sharing your wisdom.

 

Makc, as usual, thanks. It is just not worth it.

 

Billyjobob

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Gaddis, I defer to your superior knowledge and attitude. Clearly, you know all. That is exactly why I asked as I knew I could count on you to answer any question and thus avoid any unnecessary damage to one of my spare mags. Thanks much for sharing your wisdom.

 

Makc, as usual, thanks. It is just not worth it.

 

Billyjobob

Glad I could be of some help to ya! :D

 

BTW - as for the figuring out about how to get the magazine apart jab, it's the same kind of stuff I had to go through years ago when I was interested in trying out Linux and didn't know how to correctly partition my hard drive (some of those computer old timers could be pretty brutal!). Like they told me, there's some things you should just leave alone, sonny (and that goes double for things that can get you killed (like modifying firearms without having a clue) or having to share a cell with Bubba). :D

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Oh Boy!, looks like someone hasn't been on the Internet for long, or needs to develop some thicker skin fast! :D

 

And second of all, "sonny" wasn't aimed at you, it was used to refer to me years ago when I asked my Linux query. BTW - how do you know if I'm not older than fifty?

 

And thirdly, maybe I admit I came across as a bit condescending in my posts, but like those aforementioned "oldtimers" would have told you, a quick search of any firearms laws sites would have told you that trying to stuff more than five rounds in any 12 gauge shotgun (without the right paperwork in place) probably isn't such a great idea. It's usually out there somewhere if you just take the time to look for it first (Sara Brady and her minions just might be scanning these boards! :D).

 

"Jacka$$" out! :D

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OK, I'm all for burying the hatchet. Just remember the BATF&E will take a personal interest in you and your workshop if they catch you doing something they don't like (just ask all the legal class 3 dealers that are being hassled in the last few years for minor paperwork infractions). If you don't believe me, just go to any public range where LEO officials hang out with your 6+ "modified" magazines and let em rip. :D

 

Besides, (even though I admit I am not close to fifty), I still don't relish the fact of getting beaten up :unsure: .

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well if you do a lot of shooting on your own property, one day expect a police officer to come check on you. that is unless you dont have a single old couple living near ya or hippy type. here troopers periodically check on the locals that shoot a lot like myself, and i am happy to say that by following the bullshit laws they have, i have not only been complimented on my collection, but have shot with a few of these nice officers :) my advice to all a ya is to just go by the damn book. you get caught with ak parts on your saiga, or a modified mag, yer gonna lose you guns guys....sorry...i didnt do it.

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Gaddis:

 

Peace my friend. We have too much in common to be at odds. From this point forward, we will fight no longer.

 

For the rest of you, a parting thought for the day.......

 

Together, we are a lot stronger than any of us seperately.

Collectively, we are a lot dummer than any one of us individually.

AND

 

Each of us are unique................just like everyone else.

 

Billyjobob

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Cool beans! :D True, all us gun owners should stick together and not fight amongst each other (we have far too many "enemies" out there already trying to seperate us all to worry about!). Hope you have very many happy and fun years with that Saiga-12 of yours! :super:

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At last you guys made up!!! :wub:

 

I thought I would have to rename this thread from "Saiga 12 Mag Adaption" to smtng more appropriate... :angel:

 

I think it's a good thing to be able to share the knowledge here insetead of :ded: and :killer: each other!!!

 

My thinking is that it is always better to ask a question first, before gettin' yourself into something that will only cost you $$$ and potentially *other* problems...

 

Have fun! :super:

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Makc:

 

I know the "parts are on the way from mother Russia". I keep watching the store front daily to see if they are in yet, but obviously not so far. I saw where you had got the paperwork they were in route. Any other encouraging word yet??? :unsure:

 

Thanks.

 

Billyjobob

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WHERE, WHERE, WHERE, WHERE, WHERE???

 

Where in the world does it say you can't have more than five rounds in a Saiga mag legally? Interpreting the AWB that way is false, but I suspect you're not referring to the AWB, but to some DD classification.

 

BUT WHERE IN THE WORLD DOES THAT COME FROM??? People say that frequently but NO ONE has EVER shown me ANY DOCUMENTATION that there's ANYTHING wrong with Saiga mags over 5 rounds.

ALL I EVER see is:

"yes it is"

"no it isn't"

"Oh, you want to break the law?"

"I'm not breaking the law, there's nothing illegal about it"

"You might think it's ok to break the law, but..."

"Where is this law?"

"he said she said his brother's uncle's father's nephew's formoer rommate said... I can't find the link... BUT IT'S ILLEGAL!!!!"

"I don't believe you"

"Maybe you want to live in a cell next to Bubba, you'll get many years for this crime! I clearly tell you the law and you don't listen!"

 

If the next response gives me some better idea of what the law ACTUALLY STATES and not what everybody seems to be saying, hopefully eventually leading to some sort of verifiable source of the ACTUAL LAW, then you have my sincerest thanks and apologies for my rant, but I think it's understandable that when I NEVER get an answer to the question of WHERE IS THE LAW, I get this frustrated and angry at those who say it without substantiation.

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Well, here is the part of the AWB that explains about "assault" shotguns and "evil" features allowed. Technically, (how I interpret it) you are completely right in saying that having more than five rounds in a Saiga-12 magazine is *legally* correct since it (the Saiga-12) only shares one other "evil" feature on the list (a detachable magazine). But, (like legal gambling and marijuana possession), I imagine Izhmash (and all the gun dealers who agree to distribute Saiga-12 shotguns) probably thought it would be easier (and less of a headache) to just limit the magazine capacity to five instead of running afoul of a backwards thinking state (like Mass. and N.J. for example) where the magazine capacity issue could then be "bastardized" and then used against them in a lawsuit (witchhunt) :(.

 

(I don't know about any other DD's that might be out there affecting shotgun magazine capacity (I suppose it's possible that there are some?). I would be very careful about this possibility if living in either Cali., NJ, Mass., MD, or Washington D.C. though!).

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.

4. A semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -

(1) a folding or telescopic stock;

(2) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of

the weapon;

(3) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

(4) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

Any gun manufactured or built after September 14, 1994 (post-ban) can only have up to 2 of these dangers on it. If your gun has more than that, and they catch you, the penalty is a $10,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison. If you have a gun made before September 14, 1994 (pre-ban), you are able to have as many of the dangers on it as you would like legally. The caveat is that the gun has to have been in an "assault weapon" configuration on or before the ban took place.

Edited by Gaddis

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unfotunately, i seem to recall part of assault rifle classification also having that ANY firearm with a flash suppressor is illegal, and ANY firearm with a threaded muzzle, pistol, rifle, shotgun, is illegal as well. anything postban the law says has to be pinned and welded to the muzzle. but i dont see it on the shotgun section dude pasted there. that seems to me like once you add features like a pistol grip or clip to a shotty, it is falling into that category, and the rifle laws fall into place on it too. : / thats looking like the loophole they have in most states where felons can own and buy blackpowder guns and out of production cartridge guns. silencers are legal in connecticuit, but hollow points are illegal in mass? come ON already. anybody seen the part in thier state's laws regarding felons and firearms? here in new york its 15 years after being released from custody you get them back, in other states out west its 10 years. they really should just have one friggin set of laws for everybody, put down a law for everything, ban nothing, and then as long as we tell someone what we have, its all good. i can see no guns inside large cities, or temporary bans on gunfire on private land in problem areas, but thats about it. too many goddamn laws that can affect someone from other sections of the firearms laws is going to get someone in trouble without them even knowing it. that i think is the real evil about all the laws out there now.

Edited by Bvamp

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The way I understand the laws, It is ok to have magazines in excess of 5 rounds on a saiga. Because as Gaddis stated

 

(3) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and

(4) an ability to accept a detachable magazine

 

The Saiga only applies to the ability to accept a detachable magazine. Because the other law says a FIXED magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds, the saiga does not have a fixed magazine, therefore can have more than 5 rounds. But, the ban also says that you cannot modify high capacity magazines or similar magazines to work with guns unless they were done prior to the awb, unless they are 10 rounds or less.

 

Title 18 U.S.C. (United States Code), Chapter 44, section 922(w)

provides that it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess

a large capacity ammunition feeding device except those which were

lawfully possessed on or before September 13, 1994.

 

As defined in 18 U.S.C., Chapter 44, section 921(a)(31)(A), the term "large

capacity ammunition feeding device" means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip

or similar device manufactured after September 13, 1994, which has a capacity

of, or can be readily converted to accept, more than ten (10) rounds of

ammunition.

 

So, to my knowledge, it is OK to make a magazine that holds 10 rounds or less.

As for people knowing what I have in the way of guns, its none of their F$&%ING business, unless I want it to be their business. Either by willingly show them, or commit a crime making it their business, which I have no intent to do. Bottom line the government does not need to know about what we have, and it should be that way

 

Please let me know if I left something out.

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"unfotunately, i seem to recall part of assault rifle classification also having that ANY firearm with a flash suppressor is illegal, and ANY firearm with a threaded muzzle, pistol, rifle, shotgun, is illegal as well. anything postban the law says has to be pinned and welded to the muzzle. but i dont see it on the shotgun section dude pasted there. that seems to me like once you add features like a pistol grip or clip to a shotty, it is falling into that category, and the rifle laws fall into place on it too. "

 

WHERE, for the love of all that is good and decent, WHERE do you get these ideas? I really don't mean to be rude, but I HAVE READ the assault weapon ban, I HAVE READ ATF letters on the subject, and I HAVE NEVER seen any actual documentation that:

a.) adding features to a shotgun makes rifle laws apply

b.) the assault weapon ban applies to ANYTHING that is not semi-automatic, with a couple of named exceptions like the Mossberg Bullpup and revolving cylinder shotguns

 

FACTS:

a.) A threaded muzzle for a flash hider is ONE of FIVE features listed for RIFLES and for PISTOLS in the AWB, out of which you can have ONE, WITH a detachable magazine, and still be legal.

b.) Flash hiders, threaded barrels, and bayonet lugs ARE NOT listed under shotguns under the AWB.

 

Now if you're talking about the import ban, then you're talking about a very fluid and hazy law, the point of which is that BATF can cut imports on anything whenever they like, and that you can't get around that simply by assembling all those imported parts in this country.

 

I do not mean to be rude or abrasive, but such things as I have quoted above are so far from reality that it makes me want to cry.

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Don't get frustrated BattleRifle, Bvamp is talking out of his a$$ again. I've just gotten used to his nonsense ramblings and ignore his posts. I award him the A$$ Clown award for this forum - Awarded in excellence in not knowing what the hell he is talking about, making some BS comment, pissing people off, or just plain being an idiot. Yes Bvamp, lets submissively follow all the laws so they may make more till we are no longer able to own guns, what a genious idea. You should move to Britain.

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I believe we should follow the laws of this country unless they compel us to act against our conscience, but the laws just plain don't say what Bvamp said. I'm glad to know that's not the majority opinion here.

 

I just love it when people say things that I can't put a flash hider and bayonet lug on a bolt action rifle. Actually, no I don't. I hate it and maybe I should stop assuming that I don't know something, someone else does. Cause when I ask on a small detail of a law I mostly understand, someone will botch the whole darned thing.

 

Don't you wish BATF, who I'm sure monitors these forums at times, took the trouble to explain the laws?

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actually flashhiders are illegal on postban anything, pinned and welded or not now if you check your laws. muzzle breaks are not illegal. there is a big difference. one is for the battlefield and one is for the shooter. go figure. and no, ya cant thread your barrel to accept any common threading after the ban date. you really should read a little closer. in states where silencers are legal for normal firearms holders, only certain weapons can be modified to accept them. again, check your reading skills guys. you want to insult, go for it. I cant help it if there are ignorant people out there that think laws dont apply to them if they dont get caught. laws arent for the ones that would follow them, they are for the ones that would break them. im sorry, because "it looks cool" shouldnt make it legal. the freakin deer you just shot aint gonna have its buddies spot your muzzle flash and shoot back. get real will ya? hey why dont we just legalise drugs too while we are at it....get real will ya? some of you are beginning to sound like militants.

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ey why dont we just legalise drugs too while we are at it....get real will ya? some of you are beginning to sound like militants.

 

dude your just not right, drugs SHOULD be legal, first off we are supposed to be FREE but for some reason our gov loves to stick its head in and tell us what we can and cant do. if someone wants to destroy their body with drugs then let them i say. second like 75%+ of the ppl in jail are there for nonviolent charges related to drugs. why the hell should our police force be used in such a manner. arresting someone for a joint is just stupid and taking away from what they should be doing-protecting the people. since the WAR on drugs started we have been wage'n war on our own ppl. its supposed to be like 40 million americans use drugs. thats a large chunk of the population to be wage'n war against. it has turned this country into a constant state of paranoia, even law abiding citizens get nervous when a cop comes around, wheres the good old days when the police were our friends (no offense to the cops that come here) most of the cops i know dont beleive the laws are right either

 

now back to the guns

maybe i want to make my old rifle into the state its supposed to be. but maybe that flash hider will keep the deer from knowing where the shot came from in low light, or maybe i might have to take a few shots quickly at a running deer and dont wanna be blinded by the massive flash of my rifle. if i wanna put a pistol grip on my shotgun or have a large clip does that make it any more dangerous? IMO my deer rifle is 100x's more dangerous than any shotgun ever could be, if i can hit a playing card at 400 yards im pretty sure i can do alot of damage,my sks-d is post ban and un modified is just as dangerous as any ak-47 and the same size. whats the difference? nothing. get your head outta ur congerssmans ass and get some balls :devil:

Edited by shotgun_lobotomy

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shotgun_lobotomy - Here here as to your commentaries on our state of affairs over the "War on drugs"! I may be an old dude of the 60's, but I couldn't agree more. Prohibition didn't work, the war on drugs isn't working, and no one is making out but the people building prisons, the police, and the illegal suppliers/dealers. When are we finally going to come to our senses and put this nonsense behind us and demand a change in the laws?????????????????

 

As to our gun laws, it is not that bad yet, but................ I guess if I had asperations of taking over the country, I would want the population armed only with single shot bb guns too if I could manage it. Where exactly in the constitution does is specify WHAT TYPE arms I have a right to bare? I seem to have missed that part.

 

Billyjobob

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well i can see the insults wont stop. ok, try this scenario einstein:

 

your new neighbor spends all his hard earned money on legal crack and legal machineguns. how long will it be before you are shot, someone else is shot, or this new found friend of yours kills your pet or other nieghbor across the way? give it a rest man. you should be able to choose, yeh i know that, but why dont ya be reasonable.

 

guns were made legal in this country as part of a congressional act that paid its men after the revolution with firearms, and also later jefferson passed the damn law to make our country able to defend itself, because until recently, we never HAD an army of much size.

 

as for your old guns? good, do em up. dont do it to a new one. i agree with that. you a military weapons collector or something? good for you, keep it up, ME TOO.

 

and to anyone else that wants to insult me, hey i own and bear arms myself. ive been shooting since i was like 5 or something, and owned my first gun when i was 10. i still have it actually. i have a concealed carry permit, and i am almost to the new york state limit of 19 guns. i own everything from a very rare nelson lewis kentucy rifle, to an m4, so dont tell me i dont get it. thing is i DO get it see? im not some ignorant kid. why dont you move to crack alley and see how long you last when crack is legal. hell it dont need to be legal. theres enough of it out there already, and the people addicted to it and high on it WILL kill you for a nickle out of your pocket or that nice pistol on your hip. yeh let them kill themselves, but trust me, just like a crazy person with a gun, a crackhead will kill you and me just as quick for less reasons than the psycho. nah, to hell with the law, its all there to stop us from having our rights. bull bro, bull. we need a set of laws that is common to every state, and in ONE freaking place so that you dont get the surprise at the range that you have something illegal. who here likes to research every part they install in a shotgun or assault rifle or pistol? not me. put em all down nice and clear and in one spot. get with the program and get off my a$$ already, because i can see most of you just dont get it. yeh lets legalise crack and have no gun laws at all.. real good idea. real good. are some of you guys that hate me in the local militia? you are minutemen? ok....then you are a cop or in the reserves then and have a reason to have that machine gun....damn some people are thick.

 

what we NEED are laws that give a fair and speedy trial to people like the DC sniper idiots, and then execute them speedily and fairly. have the governor right there and send them to the gallows. thats what we all pay for, for them to sit and rot. F them. you get life? heres life right here pal. send em to the gallows. you shoot someone in anger? you should be shot twice. fairly simple, but hey, we cant all be happy now can we. at least the law system here is one that can be changed if its not right. if our government wanted us all disarmed they would have signed the UN resolution a ways back that supports global civilian disarmament. that didnt happen now, did it.....

 

guns and crack for all! YAY! lets just sell ammo with a big rock of crack in the box so we can ALL get fired right up. that is the stupidest goddamn thing i think i have ever heard from any gun owning american.

 

hey I have a better idea: lets make murder legal too. lets get lax on the self defense laws. i can think of a bunch of people to invite over tonight...

Edited by Bvamp

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