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shotguns and lazers


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First and foremost, the following is purely MY OPINION(S) so please "take it or leave it":

 

I had semi-permanently mounted a green tactical weapons laser with pressure pad on my S-20. Here are two photos of the configuration I came up with:

 

GarysTROMIXS-20005.jpg

 

 

GarysTROMIXS-20018.jpg

The laser's pressure pad was permanently glued to the forend handguard.

 

I recall purchasing the laser from eBay via some Hong Kong seller. After approximately shooting 100 rounds through the S-20, the laser crapped-out on me (I think something went tits-up with the pressure pad's wiring/connection). Anyway, it didn't take me long to come to the realization that although having a weapon laser on your Saiga shottie is tacticool and all..... it friggen makes little to no sense whatsoever (just my opinion mind you). IT'S A COTTON PICK'N SHOTGUN!!!! Weapon lasers are best suited for pistols and rifles (i.e., firearms with rifled barrels), not shotguns.

 

:shocked:

Edited by Gary
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I think if you want to shoot slugs, a laser is a good idea. It's more for the fun/tacticool factor, though, to be honest. As far as I know, you aren't allowed to use a projection laser when hunting larger game such as deer or bear, so there's no need for it in a truly practical sense. However, when shooting slugs at vicious watermelons, water-filled milk jugs, zombie computer moniters, etc., I would say it would be a fun gimmick to have on the ol' shottie.

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  • 4 months later...

I think a real advantage for defense situations, because it makes both you and the other guy way more aware of where your gun is aimed.

According to research cited by the crimson trace website (completely objective naturally), lasers in police situations have greatly lessened the need to actually fire.

 

I think there is a lot of merit to that.

You are just gonna take someone more seriously when there is a dot on the end of your nose. It gives you a chance to rethink your behavior.

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I think a real advantage for defense situations, because it makes both you and the other guy way more aware of where your gun is aimed.

According to research cited by the crimson trace website (completely objective naturally), lasers in police situations have greatly lessened the need to actually fire.

 

I think there is a lot of merit to that.

You are just gonna take someone more seriously when there is a dot on the end of your nose. It gives you a chance to rethink your behavior.

 

 

What lasers hold up to a 12's recoil? I'd like to put a laser, flashlight and front vertical grip on mine with the intent of it only being a fun gun, home defense gun and when all the zombies come at the end of the Mayan calander. :) I'm having a hard time deciding on which flashlight, mount and grip to use and where to source it from. Looking around on AR15.com etc. just has way too much information to go through, I simply don't have the time anymore.

 

Suggestions would be cool. Price isn't a big concern. I'd much rather pay 50% more and not get something made in China being sold by someone here.

Edited by Tutmos
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I just wanna know how the bad guy see's the laser dot on the end of his nose? LMAO

 

I've said this many times before but here goes again. If me, pointing my weapon at said bad guy with my intent to immediately end his life if he fails to comply with my orders, expressed in the most serious way doesn't impress him, no little ass light spot will. Add to that the potential for depending on technology that may not work when you need it most tells me lasers are a bad joke on a serious weapon.

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I just wanna know how the bad guy see's the laser dot on the end of his nose? LMAO

 

I've said this many times before but here goes again. If me, pointing my weapon at said bad guy with my intent to immediately end his life if he fails to comply with my orders, expressed in the most serious way doesn't impress him, no little ass light spot will. Add to that the potential for depending on technology that may not work when you need it most tells me lasers are a bad joke on a serious weapon.

 

Have you ever even been around a $3 laser pointer? You can see down the beam when someone shines it anywhere on your face. It is pretty much impossible to ignore. I think just about anything that holds attention helps. For one thing, it makes sure that he can see that you are indeed holding a weapon, and that your aim is steady. It can help you add to what is no doubt already a commanding and intimidating presence.

 

Re the possibility of technological failure: If the laser fails to work, what have you lost? When it does work, it provides some tangible advantages, and measurably better results in actual situations. So, you have something that can help a lot, and doesn't subtract if it doesn't. You have a Win/don't lose situation.

Your firearms are all full of fiddly bits that can fail. Maybe you should switch to an axe and a serious tone of voice;)

 

Seriously though, there are a bunch of people out there who sincerely believe that a pump is the only tactically acceptable shotgun. You have chosen some better, fancier technology, because it offers things the pumps don't. Don't reject other good tech, simply because the job can be done without it.

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I recently removed the the laser off my Mossberg pump because I consider it to be redundant use of optics on the gun. Its already got a reflex dot sight and a tact. light. That and 00 buck should be sufficient. Also everyone has said that using a pump is very noticeable to the perp because of the most recognizable sound of the action being cycled. Often thats enough for someone to comply before even shining a light or a laser at him.

 

The S12 is a fun gun to shoot but its too evil looking with the quad rail, light and laser that if used for home defense, it would make you look like some gun nut itching to pull the trigger whether justified or unjustified. The gun climate is very shaky especially in my state. If there is going to be a kill it needs to be a good clean kill such that you won't leave the situation in handcuffs.

 

As said, I think lasers are best used on rifles and pistols. The laser is overkill when using on a shotty much like putting a 4x or 6x scope on a shotty, its just not necessary. Slugs on a smooth bore can only be so accurate at close distances anyways unless you're using rifled slugs like Sabots but you would have to convert to a rifled barrel thereby committing yourself to using only rifled slugs. That kind of defeats the versatility of the shotgun.

 

To best sum it up for shottys is K.I.S.S

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If you want to keep it KISS then I wouldn't go with a Saiga. Probably stick to granny's ol' break action double barrel.

 

As for lasers, I also had a BRONS that went tits up after one mag on a UMP. I have a OTAL but cannot recommend due to price (works fine though). Also have a Streamlight M6 that works fine but it's on a pistol. Greg at CSS carries a few brands, you might check with him.

 

Personally, it boils down to how you're going to use it. For HD, I'd take a flashlight only. I think I can hit anything/anyone in my house by merely pointing at them. I can't hunt with lasers and all I'd hunt would be birds so it's kinda' pointless anyway. Something else to consider, most of the laser's I've seen/used are pretty hard to pick out in full sunlight.

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if/when I go with a laser option for any weapon, I'll opt for something as small and compact as possible. Being so small its a "why-not" kinda deal. as far as I can see, there are only pros to having one.

 

something like this lasermax for example.

 

359170.jpg

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Cali, I agree with most of what you said about looking like a psycho to the cops. That's part of why mine looks as stock as possible. I will make a couple of minor visible changes with a front sight post and possibly a rear sight, and a minimalist laser or light. I definitely gravitate towards models similar to what ATL Saiga posted above, but I would want a remote switch by my right thumb. Also, a weak green laser kind of defeats the point of getting a green one. he can get a cheap weaver barrel mount or build up his fore end to be level with the barrel with some epoxy and put 2 inches of weaver onto the forend, without making the gun look ridiculous, or extreme.(Ok I guess any s12 with a high cap does anyway, but rails all over the place, a porkypine, and cobra76's bayonet are a bit too much.)

 

As far as lasers being visible during day, that has been largely addressed above. A bright green laser is visible, but they cost more. I agree that cheap red ones are not. I would mostly use the thing for fun in the day anyway. Any laser is visible at night when everyone's imaginary home defense scenario occurs.

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If you want to keep it KISS then I wouldn't go with a Saiga. Probably stick to granny's ol' break action double barrel.

...

 

BTW, the Saiga is based on the AK platform which is considered to be one of the most simpliest design and construction for a modern weapon. Hence its reliability. You must be one of those AR guys since you like "technology" so much.

 

However, I'm glad you have so much faith on the technology of your accessories, but perhaps you need to have a talk with the guy who posted about the effects of an EMP blast on electric or electronic accessories on your shotty.

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EMP?!? are you serious? If you get nuked, none of your guns are going to do you any good whether or not you have electronics on them.

 

But this forum has pretty much latched onto the idea that s12= ultimate anti-zombie platform, so maybe that was the scenario you had in mind.

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EMP?!? are you serious? If you get nuked, none of your guns are going to do you any good whether or not you have electronics on them.

 

But this forum has pretty much latched onto the idea that s12= ultimate anti-zombie platform, so maybe that was the scenario you had in mind.

 

Haha, I'm just messing around. But someone did start a thread about EMP (not me). Really lasers are just for fun for that "Tacti-cool" look but on a shotty, nothing more than that. We've all seen on TV and movies how some guy with a laser on his pistol was able to shoot the perp holding onto a hostage. The same situation with a shotty would just kill them both. Hence theres no precision to the gun that would match the precision of the laser. If and when the Zombies come out, I know that if I miss the first shot, I'll have 9 or 11 or 19 more depending on the mag or drum I use.

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Maybe my reply is a little harsh but my words are based on real life down and dirty me or him confrontations. It ain't nothing like movie crap. All plans go out the window, all your cool moves are gone, it just gets down to get the muzzle on the other guy and get the trigger pulled if you have to. In my world all a laser tells the AH is that your not serious otherwise he would already be bleeding. Keep it simple that's it. I've been shot at, tried to have my head caved in, been stabbed, you name it, a laser and all the other crap that's popular to hang on a gun just don't fit my world. Richard Pryor said it perfect in one of his acts, fuckers don't stab you like in the movies from the front, flicking the knife from hand to hand, they stab you awkward from some angle you don't expect, that's what real fights are like.

 

I will say I kinda sorta am ok with a laser on a snubby revolver not for the intimidation but for the one in a million times you might just have to make a difficult shot with it but the dam thing probably wouldn't work or you couldn't see the dot anyway.

 

Fights are like train wrecks, you just can't choreograph them or predict what's gonna happen.

 

Never had a tag line how about this?

 

It's all fun till someone gets poked in the wrong place... LOL like that.

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I prefer a light. I've had lasers on a few guns over the years, and they've always ended up being removed.

 

I'm not going to count on some BG looking down at his chest to see the dot, and get scared. If looking into the bore of a 12ga won't scare him, then no dot will either.

 

I just got a light to put on my S12 when it's finished. It's LED, output 200 Lumens. If it'll stand up to the recoil, it'll stay there. No remote pressure switch either, just mount the light where it can be reached. No wires to tangle or get ripped out.

 

If he's not scared by the bore, then the light will blind him, and it won't matter anymore.

 

Just my .02

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A307 that was a pretty funny post. Are you able to flash gang signs with both hands at the same time while showing a gold tooth? :)

 

 

The point behind the laser isn't to give a precise aiming point, we're talking about a shotgun afterall, nor would I intend it to somehow frighten an intruder. The reason I'd use one in such a case is to reinforce where my aiming point really is as I'm schtumping through my dark house trying to focus on who it really is I may be punching a hole through. Your vestibular system, proprioceptors and visual system combine information to tell you where you arms and hence the gun are in space. It's by no means a perfect system and prone to substantial error with environmental cues that aren't just right and in a dark house your visual contribution to that combined system is handicapped in a big way.

 

Here's a really cool example that you'd never expect. If you hold your nose with your hand and attach a vibrating pad to your bicep running at 60-100hz with your eyes closed you will really think that your nose is growing because the receptors in your bicep are sensitive to vibration and tell your brain that your arm is extending. That could only happen if your nose was growing. You will honestly think your nose is growing. The point is that your intuitive feel of where the gun is pointing, provided you're not looking through an optic, which I assume nobody is doing in a dark house where an intruder my be around the next corner with a bat, is not realiable and even less so in a high stress situation. A laser gives an additional reinforcement to those other sensory modalities that your nervous system is using to determine where the gun is in space.

 

The real issue for debate is attached flashlights and the problem of dark adaptation in the fovea. It takes up to 30 minutes to adapt from light environment vision to maximal dark vision. It's unfortunately a catch 22. Using the light severely damages your ability to see anything outside the cone of light from the flashlight, but at the same time you can't with any sense of moral clarity shoot someone without seeing who it actually is.

 

The most amazing bad example of this problem was in the movie I Am Legend when he is in the bank using the f'ing bright flashlight when he knows every target is something to shoot, there is no debate about positive ID. Everytime he opened the light he ruined his dark adapting sight all over again, he would have been essentially blind outside of the cone of light from his flashlight while everything around him could see very clearly.

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This is just my opinion, but I really think that all a laser will do is slow you down. Learn to use your irons, and practice a whole heck of a lot. You should be able to hit the dead center of a man sized target under 50' even at night. Before grabbing a laser I would make sure that I had a quality weaponlight and practice with it as well. A weaponlight, even a poweful one mounted to your weapon will not ruin your night vision.

 

The only good reason I have ever heard for having a laser on a weapon would be to show other people where your gun is pointing in various LE scenarios.

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This is just my opinion, but I really think that all a laser will do is slow you down. Learn to use your irons, and practice a whole heck of a lot. You should be able to hit the dead center of a man sized target under 50' even at night. Before grabbing a laser I would make sure that I had a quality weaponlight and practice with it as well. A weaponlight, even a poweful one mounted to your weapon will not ruin your night vision.

 

The only good reason I have ever heard for having a laser on a weapon would be to show other people where your gun is pointing in various LE scenarios.

 

 

With all due respect I don't think you understand the physiology of vision. Any bright light is going to ruin your night vision for a period of time. It's not a debate point. If you're in a room with lights on in the country and walk outside in starlight it will take upto 30 minutes until your maximal night vision is reached. The jist of it is the ganglia and bipolar cells of the cones in the fovea actually switch over and allow rods to use their pathway, increasing light sensitivity dramatically and eliminating color response. This synaptic change takes upto 30 minutes. It's not a matter of anyone thinking they're special and don't need to do it. It's like saying you don't need a heart to pump blood. It's just they way your eyes and visual cortex work. If you're shining a light at someone else the response for them will be even worse but that's the problem. Provided they aren't using a flashlight your vision outside of the cone of light is going to be dramatically worse than the guy hiding in the closet waiting for you pass by and then come out.

 

Also I don't think using your irons is such a good idea in a dark interior environment with a shotgun and I don't know how anyone could think you'll be on par with someone that has a full field of vision with the gun at shoulder height with a laser or light etc. To "use your irons" requires that you have plenty of room to keep the gun at a specific position with your eye looking down the barrel. With a laser you can fire from almost any position which gives you flexibility if the moment calls for it and need to evade or chase etc. There's also the little problem that most people have to close one eye or squint to use irons to aim, you've now lost half of your vision capacity with one eye closed and completely lost depth perception. This is why sights like eotech red dots are popular, you can aim while keeping both eyes open. Well the same would apply with a laser in tight quarters at night. With a rifle you need a precise hit, shotgun is little more forgiving.

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With all due respect I don't think you understand the physiology of vision. Any bright light is going to ruin your night vision for a period of time. It's not a debate point. If you're in a room with lights on in the country and walk outside in starlight it will take upto 30 minutes until your maximal night vision is reached. The jist of it is the ganglia and bipolar cells of the cones in the fovea actually switch over and allow rods to use their pathway, increasing light sensitivity dramatically and eliminating color response. This synaptic change takes upto 30 minutes. It's not a matter of anyone thinking they're special and don't need to do it. It's like saying you don't need a heart to pump blood. It's just they way your eyes and visual cortex work. If you're shining a light at someone else the response for them will be even worse but that's the problem. Provided they aren't using a flashlight your vision outside of the cone of light is going to be dramatically worse than the guy hiding in the closet waiting for you pass by and then come out.

 

Try it, and then get back to me. You will not be blind outside of the cone of light. And once you do have the light on, and others can see you, why would you start turning it on and off??

 

Also I don't think using your irons is such a good idea in a dark interior environment with a shotgun and I don't know how anyone could think you'll be on par with someone that has a full field of vision with the gun at shoulder height with a laser or light etc. To "use your irons" requires that you have plenty of room to keep the gun at a specific position with your eye looking down the barrel. With a laser you can fire from almost any position which gives you flexibility if the moment calls for it and need to evade or chase etc. There's also the little problem that most people have to close one eye or squint to use irons to aim, you've now lost half of your vision capacity with one eye closed and completely lost depth perception. This is why sights like eotech red dots are popular, you can aim while keeping both eyes open. Well the same would apply with a laser in tight quarters at night. With a rifle you need a precise hit, shotgun is little more forgiving.

 

Once again, give it try first. If you are using you irons properly in the dark there is no squinting. You shoot with both eyes open and with proper cheek weld. Inside of 50 feet, with proper cheek weld there is no need to use the rear, its all automatic. There is a reason why the military, LE, and any other serious training institution trains the way they do. Also, keep in mind that even with buckshot, inside of 50 feet, a shotgun is really only more forgiving by a couple inches at most.

 

If you go head to head with someone who has trained seriously, they will always be faster than someone tracking a little red that moves over changing surfaces. If you want a red dot, get a holosight and call it good.

 

Once again, just my opinion, and I'm a civilian, - but its an opinion that has come from a lot of practice using both, and is held by the majority of the serious training groups.

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What's a lazer?

Really? I mean, fucking REALLY??

 

I think the OP is referring to Sea Lions.... or maybe it's a tire pressure gauge of some sort....

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK HE MEANS BY LAZER? Have you never misspelled a word before?? Got off your goddamn high horse and don't fucking post something if you have nothing constructive to add to the thread, for Christ's sake. :anger:

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What's a lazer?

Really? I mean, fucking REALLY??

 

I think the OP is referring to Sea Lions.... or maybe it's a tire pressure gauge of some sort....

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK HE MEANS BY LAZER? Have you never misspelled a word before?? Got off your goddamn high horse and don't fucking post something if you have nothing constructive to add to the thread, for Christ's sake. :anger:

 

 

Misplace our meds today ???? :eek: Hmmmm :haha:

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What's a lazer?

Really? I mean, fucking REALLY??

 

I think the OP is referring to Sea Lions.... or maybe it's a tire pressure gauge of some sort....

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK HE MEANS BY LAZER? Have you never misspelled a word before?? Got off your goddamn high horse and don't fucking post something if you have nothing constructive to add to the thread, for Christ's sake. :anger:

 

 

Misplace our meds today ???? :eek: Hmmmm :haha:

Yeah.... where the hell is my Saiga??? :ph34r::smoke:

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What's a lazer?

 

Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation

Lazer is a very common and colloquial misspelling of laser, noting really worth commenting on...

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