New Gas Plug and Reason Why!

[MikeD 541]

I wanted to give the whole story and reason why the gas plug. This will explain what lead to it. It will also explain why first run customers get one free and why they are for sale to second run customers. This will go back to the beginning in brief.

 

On my prototypes I didn't have the high brass problems. But when I got the first production grade testers from the molds I did. I had almost completely switched my testing guns. I had 10 or so older guns when testing the protos and replaced most of them with current imports ( late '07 guns). The very most of these newer guns had a gas plug that screwed in to far. It would go past the 1 setting before bottoming out. So when you backed out to 2 and then to 1 you had to take the plug at minimum .020" more off the ports than if your plug stopped at 2 like what was the norm. This is why most of these type plugs would run low brass on the high brass setting. If enough gas is getting in on the high brass setting to run the cheap winchester from the hip... imagine how much is coming in from some of the high power ammo!! I don't think it is a coincidence that we started seeing broke firing pins and operating rods with these new guns. Something that had been completely unheard of happening at that point! But now I hear the new gun are coming in with only 2 ports so maybe Izhmash has noticed themselves and countered the over gassing in this way. WHO KNOWS!

 

But anyways back to why a new plug....

 

I made some slight adjustments to the molds to try and counter how some high brass would out cycle the drum. It helped but diidn't solve it. I adjusted the molds again! And again it was better but not 100%. At this point production had been held up so long I had to figure something out. I tried more spring tension and that did the trick. It let the high-brass feed fast enough to keep up with the action. So I turned loose production. But my spring design wasn't designed to last pushing that hard. So I planned a stronger spring. I disclosed everything to the first run customers before shipping. Gave the same option to cancel in advance of the order shipping. I stated that every first run customer would get a new stronger spring sent to them for free.

 

The stronger spring was a good fix. But it had fall backs. It required more spring tension adjustments from gun to gun and ammo to ammo. Also there was some guns that the extra pressure from the feeding shell that it would rob too much energy from the bolt and not completely close up with the next round. I was also planning to send a stronger recoil spring that would have countered that.

 

I really wanted to find a solution in the drum itself. I didn't like the idea of even having to swap out a recoil spring in the gun! I tried many different adjustments to many drums. I final found one that did let the drum keep up with high brass. I was planning to adjust the molds for future drums and let first run customers send their drum bodies back in for an adjustment and send some replacement internals. I let all the first run customers know this. These mold adjustments would be simple to do (no mold adjustment is truly simple but as easy as it gets). But I had spoke a little too soon on the adjustment. I had ran 300 or 400 rounds through of a few different types of high brass that I knew had problems at that point. Didn't have one round get out cycled. But when I went back to do more testing I found an issue. It was with the shortest of rounds. Like Federal. The short rounds had a tendency to feed in too high and jam the gun. This didn't have any difference in frequency from high brass to low brass. It was length dependent. I found that to be unacceptable. The solution to this was simple as well and would have been the last step. But the problem was to make this simple adjustment to the part would require a not so simple adjustment to the molds. Completely doable but it would have taken some time.

 

At this point (2 days before the election) I felt time wasn't on my side. And I felt that even more on election day. I knew that the changes would push the 2nd production run good and past inauguration day. And that scared the holy hell out of me! Also these changes would make the 1st run drums very unconvential to modify. ((((Now for months I knew the problem could be addressed by better gas control. And thought a lot about designing a new plug. But I wasn't wanting to have to go that route. The first of September I read about Nate's new gas plug. He designed it to help guns cycle low brass better which is a good thing and from what I read has a good result doing so. That isn't what caught my eye about it. What caught my attention was his mention of a setting to tone down the gas for 3 inch mag rounds. I thought this might would be it or easily adjustable to test my thought. I bought one. I still let this plug sit for 2 months and not even test it because I wanted to find a fix in the drum!)))) I thought the risk to make the mold changes was too great. I went and got Nate's plug, loaded up with a problem slug, and let them off with out a hitch. With the plug I was able to fire every single type of high brass that had caused out cycling without a single problem! Even Winchester Turkey loads ( if you know how powerful those are )! And at the same time the gun wasn't getting beat all to hell (I had already broke the firing pin and operating rod on one of the over gassed guns during testing)!!!

 

Now I was posed with more issues to work out. I confirmed what I had already knew about better gas control. But I did this with another man's design and product. And this part also sold for $80. That would have been a VERY big bite out of the drastically reduced $165 orders. I am sure I could have designed a completely different gas plug that was just as effective. But 2 things wear against this. The first and smallest was time. I could have squeezed it in I'm sure! The second and biggest thing was confirming with Nate's plug and how easy that made the confirmation for me. It was only right to first try and work something out with Nate to use his concept. I called him and explained my situation and that I couldn't send out an $80 part or sale a $80 part to future customers. He explained how much time he had involved (steps in machining,...) in making his plugs as to why they were $80. And that he also lost his access to the CNC lathe he was doing a step on. I let him know of a contact I have that I was sure could make the part and for a very good price (very nice machinery!). I got the quote and it was good. We worked out a deal where I would over see getting them made and provide the capital. I will also handle the shipping of the very most of them as well with the exception of sending Nate some to have as options available with his conversion work.

 

Another issue was the fact that I wouldn't beable to give them away to 2nd run customers. And that It would be a gun mod which I really didn't want to do. I knew I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't go with the new plug. If I did I would have to add an additional cost and part. If I didn't and modded the molds I wouldn't be able to fix the 1st run drums and would greatly delay the 2nd run production. I strongly felt the later was the biggest damned and the potiential for an even bigger damned if new legilation was past before the revised drum could be produced.

 

So now I offer the same thing I did to the 1st run customers. If this is unacceptable you can cancel your order for a full refund. You might not even need the fix but if you do it is there. It is cheap, simple, completely revesable, doesn't cost $180, doesn't require shipping your gun to and from or ffl transfer fees for even more cost......... It will reduce wear on your gun...

 

Now something else I want to state. I've received a couple emails from some very unhappy people. Trying to compare this to AA's reliability service. This is nothing like AA's reliability service. If I was anything like that I would likely have been shipping 6 months before I did (even then my drum ran 50 times better than theirs). I would have also shipped BEFORE i disclosed the information. My drums would have had problems with ALL ammo and not just certain high brass. I would have refused refunds from unhappy customers (even though not one single person has went through with one out of over 1600 drums, one guy asked for a return but I never heard back from him, he probably read his instructions, lol, hell, AA shipped barely over a 100 drums and had at least 10 people on the saiga-12 forums alone want a refund, if the same was said for me then 160 people would want a refund but remember, NOT EVEN 1!!!). The 1st run wouldn't have received the plug for free. The 2nd run would be paying more than they are.... And on and on.....

 

One of these emails even included that this would put his life in danger. Slowing the action of his gun down, lol!!! The action of your gun will still be moving faster than it does when firing low brass. The amount the action is slowed down is damn near not registarable by the human mind or eye, forget about your hand or trigger finger! Just enough that the drum will keep up when using high brass.

 

Even without this plug there are full power high brass rounds that work fine with out it. One being Breneke KO 1 0z slug, 1600 fps. Even without the plug there are many rounds you could bet your life. The saiga-12 is like EVERY other gun out there. It will react different with different mags and with different ammos. If you are betting you life on it you need to find a concestently reliable round for what your using it for. And trust there are many, many rounds you can trust in the MD-20 WITHOUT a new plug!

 

On a side note... Everything I have learned here will translated itself in other products coming from MD Arms. I am even considering modding the molds with the adjustments for future runs of the MD-20. There are some big thing happening here at MD Arms that is going to change a lot for my future projects. It is going to be a GREAT year for saiga owners! I'll probably let this info out around the end of the month.

 

I am going to try and have the plugs listed this weekend and will let everyone know when they are. I will also go over the plug in more detail then.

Thanks again everyone, MikeD

 

 

[evildog 20]

Sounds great Mike, can't wait and get one to try. Haven't had any problems with the first and don't believe there will be any problems with the second drum on order. +1

[Wakko 10]

Thanks for the update, Mike. I'm glad that a fix is finally introduced, so I can start using my Gen1 drum. Will those ship independantly of 2nd run orders, or with?

 

To the naysayers: Put up or shut up. If you don't like Mike's product or terms, cancel the order and buy a Wraithmaker. If you don't want to buy a Wraithmaker, design your own drum and let us know how it turns out. Otherwise, spend the danged $35 and be done with it. Better than $80, that's for sure.

 

Keep it up, Mike, we know you're swamped.

[Reverendfranz 160]

Is this the same plug that allows the gas system to be closed entirely?

[corbin 621]

Thanks for the update Mike.

 

It's cool to know that the fix is there IF it's needed when I get my drum. I look forward to hearing more about this plug.

 

 

We're all behind ya! Keep up the great work!

 

 

Corbin

 

 

*Edit* It sounds like regardless of whether your particular gun is over gassed or under gassed, that this plug will help regulate it better than the stock one. Plus it looks to have a 3" mag setting, which is cool if you need it. BRAVO!

Edited January 13, 2009 by Corbin

[Williespeed 0]

Fu@$in Mike man your unbelievable, the detail you go into in this post/e-mail is fantastic. just the consideration of an e-mail or post like this from any manufacturer gives me that warm and fuzzy feeling of being a loyal customer for life. $35.00 bucks for a part that will not only make my gun consistantly reliabe (a huge+) and reduce the wear and tear decreasing future operating expenses and replacement parts costs. I say not damned at all your honesty and level of disclosure give me a better feeling about doing business with you now and in the future. I look forward to the update of the exciting new things coming and your new ambidextrous LRBHO release. I will order a plug or 3 shortly right now my spare cash is going to try and secure a couple more S-12's and a few other semi auto's before they are no longer legit. Thank you for all the R&D you do to make my (our) shooting experience better.

 

P.S. I don't think it was a drum problem as good as the Kalishnikov (spelling) design is it has a few weaknesses now it has one less. Thanks to you and Nate

 

P.P.S. Hey Nate Thank You too for you time in R&D to make this shotgun work better.

DISCLAIMER: This posting was written without alcohol I am just very appreciative to have the opportunity to do business with an honorable retailer.

[Paladin 37]

Whoo Hoo, I get a Nate plug for free, can't beat that shit with a stick!

 

P.S. Show me another manufacturer that goes to the same kind of trouble and expense to back up their product.

And for those who say the problem shouldn't exist in the first place, you've never had a product you bought not work? I've got a box of shit that didn't work well, broke, etc. and so does everyone I know. My drum runs fine and I'm STILL getting a nice part for free with no effort or expense on my part.

[cliffevans 2]

I have two MD drums on order... been waiting a little bit.. and am Glad for it. I think Mike is really stand up..and Il be in for three Gas Plugs.. prolly would have bought them any way...its not the drums that need the fixing its the Saiga... or should I say Tuning up... Just like if you put a supercharger on a stock mustang... would it be the superchargers fault the head gaskets went?

[Azrial 1,091]

More then fair!

 

The vast majority of your customers are satisfied with your product and your support!

Quit worrying about making everyone happy, you can't do it!

[Williespeed 0]

Ya Mike if they don't like it tell them to go eat a Banana, or go climb a tree, or something... as I said above your honesty is a breath of fresh air. Or just give them the full refund you offer and sell it to someone else that will be most pleased with it.

Edited January 10, 2009 by Williespeed

[jamis 0]

Edited January 10, 2009 by jamis

[GLOCKshooter 1]

Mike is a class act. Plain and simple.

 

Mike, I hope your business ventures are wildly successful and you make millions of dollars. Hard work, honest business practices, attention to detail, and concern for the customer should be rewarded, and hopefully the free market economy will do so!

[Wakko 10]

Jamis, the other thread with ammo types listed in it is the information you're looking for. The problem is with high powered rounds. The rounds are so powerful, that the BCG slams back and forth so quickly, the drum doesn't have enough time to push the next shell up for the BCG to catch and load. If you're using standard or low power shells, you won't have a problem since the velocity is lower and the BCG travels more slowly. In my case, all I shoot are high powered Sluggers and Winchester Flight Control, so I can't use the drum at all right now. Slowing down the BCG by restricting the gas will give the drum more time to shove the new round up.

 

I think the ammo companies should pay for the new plug...they stand to make a fortune with us blasting through 20 rounds in five seconds!

[Franky 2]

Thanx for the update, Mikey. Can't wait to see what the future holds bro.

[rotortuner 0]

I thought the email was good and lots of good details. But im not clear on exactly how it affects me on the drums I ordered in the first run.

 

You said each order gets a free plug from the first run. Does this mean if you ordered two drums you get 2 plugs? or if you had one order of 6 drums you get 1? I ask because that kinda affects people differently depending on how they ordered their drums. I am happy with my drums and would not trade them for refunds or anything, but I did order 6 drums on 2 different orders and I own 6 saigas, originally it was put out each drum you bought, you would get a replacement spring, therefore making that drum useful with any ammo in any gun. If I only get 1 gas plug, I would have to change the gas plug from gun to gun when I take 3 of my saigas out to shoot high brass. Just curious on details?

 

Like I said, im happy but just want you to realize, this impacts people differently based on how you decide to allot the free gas plugs to the 1st run people.

 

CJG

Edited January 10, 2009 by rotortuner

[Surly 11]

I ordered two and I only need one plug. Six for six...C'mon, are you wanting to bankrupt Mike? I'm certain there are larger orders that will require zero plugs to be shipped because the drums have been sold for profit already.

 

Let's excersize a little integrity here when taking delivery of these plugs from Mike. He was benevolent enough to go through all of the bullshit to get our shotguns fed with a 20-rd drum, let's show the same courtesy and not try to make a buck off of his generousity by taking more plugs than what you need.

 

He doesn't even have to do this. We ALL purchased these with the understanding that they would possibly NOT feed all types of ammo. The gas plug fix is a shotgun problem and not a drum problem and Mike is not responsible for fixing our shotguns.

 

For the second run snivelers, cancel your order and buy one of the competition's drums AND their $180 "reliability service". Slagging on Mike for giving you the best possible product possible for the least amount of money will get your name in a thread started in the Fight Club forum by me. Not that it means much, but if you want to sling mud about something you don't even own, I'll kindly throw shit back your way.

[patriot 7,197]

Mike is a class act. Plain and simple.

 

Mike, I hope your business ventures are wildly successful and you make millions of dollars. Hard work, honest business practices, attention to detail, and concern for the customer should be rewarded, and hopefully the free market economy will do so!

 

 

AMEN!

[rotortuner 0]

I ordered two and I only need one plug. Six for six...C'mon, are you wanting to bankrupt Mike? I'm certain there are larger orders that will require zero plugs to be shipped because the drums have been sold for profit already.

 

Let's excersize a little integrity here when taking delivery of these plugs from Mike. He was benevolent enough to go through all of the bullshit to get our shotguns fed with a 20-rd drum, let's show the same courtesy and not try to make a buck off of his generousity by taking more plugs than what you need.

 

He doesn't even have to do this. We ALL purchased these with the understanding that they would possibly NOT feed all types of ammo. The gas plug fix is a shotgun problem and not a drum problem and Mike is not responsible for fixing our shotguns.

 

Uhm, please read my post, i NEVER asked for 6. I just brought up that i wasnt clear on how it was going to be handled and that it affects people differently. Of course, if you have one gun and two drums, you wouldnt need more than one plug. Your situation is different than mine

 

I think he did point out that it is a drum issue. my guns run fine with agp mags and any ammo out there, put the drum in with the same high brass loads and no go, therefor it is a drum issue and not a gun issue.

 

your right he doesnt have to do it, but he did put out in writing formally that people would get a spring for each gun therefor making that drum itself useful in any gun. like i said if he says, just one plug per customer, then i wont really be that pissed, i just want to know what the plan is, so step off a little and let me ask the question so we can get informed. He said, one per order, i made two orders so does that mean two plugs?????

 

CJG

[corbin 621]

Mike's a great guy doing all this.

 

I'm a little confused though (nothing new there ). I didn't assume the plugs would be free for the 2nd run folks, but some posts sound like that's how some folks understand it. I see a couple people mentioning $35.00 for the plug, which sounds reasonable to me.... but I can't see where that number is mentioned by Mike.

 

Sorry if I'm not getting it, and I'm not wanting to offend anyone that thinks everyone gets a plug for free or those that think we have to pay for it or that some of us do and some don't. I'm just trying to understand everything.

 

The way I understand it, which isn't crystal clear, is that the 1st run drum folks get a plug and spring for free. I'm not sure if it's one plug per drum or one per customer. I believe 2nd run folks have the option of purchasing the plug if their gun needs it. I saw some people quote $35.00 for the plug, but couldn't see where they got that number.

 

I suspect when Mike posts more details about the plug, things will be a bit more clear.

 

 

 

Keep up the great work Mike!

 

 

 

Corbin

[headshot 52]

Thank you Mike!

[Etek 32]

Great letter and post Mike.

 

I know one thing. If Mike sends out one plug per DRUM (Some folks/resellers ordered DOZENS) and we see plugs advertised on Gunbroker for Retail and the seller isn't Gunfixr/Firearm Sales some heads will get knocked and buttons will get pushed!

[pdbh171 0]

Mike's a great guy doing all this.

 

"I see a couple people mentioning $35.00 for the plug, which sounds reasonable to me.... but I can't see where that number is mentioned by Mike.

 

" I saw some people quote $35.00 for the plug, but couldn't see where they got that number.

 

 

Mike qouted that price in a previous email, 1/7/2009 ( to registered clients).

 

"The new gas plug will also greatly reduce the wear and pounding on your gun when using high power ammo. I will be adding the gas plug to my site soon if you want to add one to your order. They will be listed for $35." (MIKE)

 

 

I think that this plug will make a nice upgrade, it appears to me that it has "3" settings (?)

[John_pro2a 3]

These gas plugs absolutely ROCK. Check gunfixer's subforum for some reviews.

[motopolitico 0]

I will be happy to receive my (2nd run) order when it arrives, but I have to admit I was perplexed by Mike D's latest email. I guess it is because of the prior emails he had sent out. For example, on 10/30, MikeD wrote:

 

"I am also very please to say that I have found a major improvement to revise the MD-20 into an over-all better magazine with greater ease of use and adjustment! This will eliminate the need for the stronger replacement spring that 1st run customers where going to receive. And that is good because using a spring with less tension will keep the drum very easy to load as well as being more versatile (meaning most people will be able to fire both low and high brass with the same spring tension, the stronger spring I originally had planned would have required a lot more people to adjust the spring tension depending on the ammo used and gun characteristics). I will explain how the drum improvements effects everyone differently depending on where your order status places you. I have also explained the improvements at the end of Part 3 of my video, linked above. I will not be revealing more detailed information at this time on what the exact changes are. Everyone will know soon enough so please don't ask. [....]

 

I just wanted to let you know that any drum ordered from the 2nd run will be shipped with all the latest updated parts and improvements and there will be no reason for you to worry about sending any drum part in for adjustment or anything."

 

Which is why MikeD's latest email update and post here left me confused and surprised. I would feel better about this if I hadn't been promised that my order would be shipped with "all the latest updated parts and improvements". So, unless I am mistaken here, MikeD has changed the terms after receiving my deposit, and I've been offered a refund if I don't like it. Am I mistaken here?

[s8lorenzo 0]

Mike, thank you for taking the time to put out a qual;ity product everyone can be proud to own. I really hope everything turns out the way you (and everyone else who's rooting one your side) envisioned. one more thing, dont let those pussy-ass dems scare you, there's alot of us who are going to hide are our shit anyway.

[Wakko 10]

He clearly says that the DRUM will be shipped with latest parts and improvements. You won't get a Gen1 drum, you'll get a Gen2 drum. Doesn't say that you'll be getting everything needed to make the drum function correctly with all types of ammo.

 

Remember people, most of you don't fire high brass anyway, so you don't need this. Those of us that fire high brass exclusively cannot WAIT for the fix.

[MikeD 541]

I will be happy to receive my (2nd run) order when it arrives, but I have to admit I was perplexed by Mike D's latest email. I guess it is because of the prior emails he had sent out. For example, on 10/30, MikeD wrote:

 

"I am also very please to say that I have found a major improvement to revise the MD-20 into an over-all better magazine with greater ease of use and adjustment! This will eliminate the need for the stronger replacement spring that 1st run customers where going to receive. And that is good because using a spring with less tension will keep the drum very easy to load as well as being more versatile (meaning most people will be able to fire both low and high brass with the same spring tension, the stronger spring I originally had planned would have required a lot more people to adjust the spring tension depending on the ammo used and gun characteristics). I will explain how the drum improvements effects everyone differently depending on where your order status places you. I have also explained the improvements at the end of Part 3 of my video, linked above. I will not be revealing more detailed information at this time on what the exact changes are. Everyone will know soon enough so please don't ask. [....]

 

I just wanted to let you know that any drum ordered from the 2nd run will be shipped with all the latest updated parts and improvements and there will be no reason for you to worry about sending any drum part in for adjustment or anything."

 

Which is why MikeD's latest email update and post here left me confused and surprised. I would feel better about this if I hadn't been promised that my order would be shipped with "all the latest updated parts and improvements". So, unless I am mistaken here, MikeD has changed the terms after receiving my deposit, and I've been offered a refund if I don't like it. Am I mistaken here?

 

I clearly explained the reason in the "Why a gas plug." email. The changes I had planned turned out to only move the problem to another area. So I called them off and went with the gas plug. Please go back and reread the email carefully. You are correct that in a sence I changed the terms you ordered under. And that is why anyone that wishes to do so will receive a hassle free full refund.

 

I do also want to add that I think a few people are taking my updates a little wrong. The drum is by far riddened with flaws or anything. ONLY some people will have problems with SOME high brass. And the plug will fix that. And like Wakko said... Most people don't even fire high brass. But if you do, and IF you have a problem... there is a cheap fix. And that cheap fix costs less than 2 or 3 drums loads (40 to 60 rds) of your average high brass ammo on the market. I think if $35 will be changing anyones mind they wasn't going to be firing highbrass anyways, lol!!!

[rotortuner 0]

no longer needed

Edited January 11, 2009 by rotortuner

[Thor's Hammer 33]

Another tacticool part! On the house even!

 

I think you meant "(not) ridden"

[Dirkenstien 2]

Mike,

 

Good to see you got this info out to the early complainers. I'm guessing the other thread was deleted? If some people would just research their concerns instead of complaining they would save themselves the embarrassment. Anyhow, great job on the new plug product and keep up the good work!