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MikeD

New Gas Plug and Reason Why!

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You are correct that in a sence I changed the terms you ordered under.

 

I can live with that. Thanks for taking me seriously in your reply. I am looking forward to my drums coming in!

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Also wanted to add that IF your gun is overgassed (if you can cycle low brass reliably on Setting 1) then this plug should theoretically also significantly preserve the life and functional capability of your gun.

 

Rotorruner, not picking on you but wanted to point out something you said earlier in this thread so it may hopefully clear up some confusion for others in the future. You mentioned that the high brass issue was a drum issue and not a shotgun issue because high brass will cycle fine in your AGP mags but not your drum. However, the truth is, that the high brass drum cycle problems is only an effect of an overgassed gun. Sure, AGP mags may feed those high brass rounds because of the design difference in a 10 rd stick mag to a 20 rd drum mag, however it doesn't change the fact that an overgassed gun is undergoing extreme forces when firing high brass rounds. In fact there have been at least several cases within this forum where overgassed guns begin to break around the 3,000 round mark and earlier. All this to say you may be able to ignore it for a while, but when the damage starts catching up to you it's not going to be pretty.

 

For everyone else, it is extremely important that each individual test their own gun as unique to all others due to the differences in manufacturing of the Saiga 12's, specifically with the gas port differences. If you have an undergassed Saiga 12 you won't be able to cycle low brass rounds reliably on setting 2. Make sure you give your gun a good break in, though, before you determine whether it is ungergassed or not. If you have an overgassed you should be able to cycle low brass rounds reliably on setting 1. Those with undergassed guns may need to add new gas ports or enlarge those which are currently there. For those with overgassed guns, this plug provides an avenue for you to correct your problem and preserve the life and condition of your gun easily and at an extremely reasonable price.

 

For those interested in testing their guns but confused about what constitutes low brass and what constitutes high brass, check the latest e-mail sent out by Mike Davidson.

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i think i would want one even if i wasn't buying a drum. it looks like there is also a notch to cut the gas all the way off? That would be handy at the trap club so you aren't throwing hulls at the guy on your right!

 

Huzzah for Mike Davidson!

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i think i would want one even if i wasn't buying a drum. it looks like there is also a notch to cut the gas all the way off? That would be handy at the trap club so you aren't throwing hulls at the guy on your right!

 

Huzzah for Mike Davidson!

 

This is exactly why I bought one of these plugs from Gunfixr when he created them. I realized I was blasting the guy next to me with hulls so I stuck it on 0 and never tossed any 2 3/4" target hull at anyone :)

 

Partnering with Mike D and allowing them to be available at a lower price is just Icing on the cake. I can't wait to get a new one From Mike for the First-run drum. ;)

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I didn't realize it had a "zero" setting. I just thought it was "light", "heavy" and "magnum". I suppose it makes sense though. Easy enough to turn it to the setting with no cutout notch. Cool.

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Ya know, if Ford, GM, et. al. had Mike's level of quality control and customer satisfaction we wouldn't be bailing their butts out. In fact the other manufacturers would be needing to file for bankruptcy. Keep up the good work Mike.

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Putting things together and in perspective...

 

First of all, you should know that I am new to the Saiga shotgun and I have yet to shoot the Saiga 12 I purchased about 6 weeks ago (I want to convert it to pistol grip config first and am still waiting on the ACE folding stock).

 

Of course, my decision to buy a this specific shotgun was largely based on the fact that high capacity magazines where about to be readily available for purchase before any new ban would come into effect.

 

So far, I have obtained 10 and 12 rounds mags from AGP and Surefire which seems of good manufacture and have a few MD Arms 20 rounds drums on order.

 

During my search for the best products available, I became aware of what was described as "shady" commercial practices as well as performance (or lack of performance) claims made by the two manufacturers of drums for the Saiga 12 shotguns.

 

As Mike D. tried to explain on this forum and in his emails, the sad reality is that the Saiga 12 has been manufactured over the years with loose tolerances and limited quality control.

 

The important variations in manufacturing resulted in the quasi impossibility to get a drum to perform flawlessly in every single gun with all 12 gauge ammunitions available on the market today (my hat off to Mike for coming this close, though).

 

It seems that for a long time, Mike has tried to work around the gun gas system flaws by making changes to his drum and I believe he made the right choice by offering a "gun fix" through the use of an improved gas plug instead.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that the improved gas plug is the way to go, even if one does not want to use the MD Arms drum and we should all be grateful to Mike for working up a deal allowing us to get the plug for only $35.00

 

I find unfortunate that the difficulties to work around the Saiga flaws resulted in so much finger pointing and names calling and I believe that unclear explanations and communication is mainly to blame.

 

To make things clear for everyone and put things in perspective, here are a few facts:

 

  • The Saiga 12 shotguns have manufacturing variations making it near impossible to have a magazine fitting "just right" in every single gun. In some case, an adjustment will have to be made to get a tight fit and this adjustment can be made on the magazine to fit a specific gun or to the gun to fit a specific magazine. Obviously, it is best to adjust a magazine to fit a specific gun and not the opposite (duhh...)
  • Saiga 12 also have manufacturing variations in their gas system resulting in important variations in the length of travel and cycling speed of the bolt carrier assembly. This means that with the use of the exact same ammunition and with the same factory gas plug setting, one Saiga 12 will have the bolt carrier assembly traveling more toward the rear of the gun than another Saiga 12. In the case of "high power" ammunition, this can result in damage to the gun by having the bolt carrier hit the back of the receiver as well as excessive bolt carrier traveling speed. In the case of "low power" ammunition, this can result in the bolt carrier not traveling back far enough for the spent shell to be properly ejected and the loaded shell being pushed toward the barrel before having a chance to be high enough in the magazine often resulting in a failure to feed (jam). Although it is possible to modify a specific gun gas system, it should be obvious to everyone that a gas plug offering a wider range of settings is a better solution for most because it allows the safe and reliable use of a wider range of ammunitions in any gun (under and over gazed systems).
  • There is evidently some misunderstanding about High Brass, Middle Brass, Low Brass, blah blah blah Brass... so here is what everyone should know (many thanks to Chris Luchini for posting part of this on another web site): High brass shells are shotgun shells that have a brass base (or head) that extends up the body by about 3/4" or so. Low brass hulls extend up the body by 1/8-1/4" or so. In paper hulls (now rarely seen) high brass is used for reliability of extraction. High brass was used in the early plastic hulls to prevent splitting and burn through; it is mostly no longer needed due to improved plastics. In modern shot shells, the only real difference between high brass and low brass hulls is a marketing difference. Powerful factory loads use high brass hulls, while standard or target loads use the low brass hulls. There is no correlation between the mechanical strength of the hull and amount of brass in the base. Today, many people call high power (or high recoil) shot shells "High Brass" and low power (or low recoil) shot shells "Low Brass" while in fact, there is no correlation between recoil and length of the brass portion of a shot shell, hence the confusion...

I hope you enjoyed reading this post and your comments are most welcome.

 

The Globule.

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For anyone who might be a bit confused about how this plug compares to the one I have been marketing up to now, it is the same basic plug, but with a few minor changes. The basic plug had 4 settings, 0 (off), 1 (least gas, for 3" shells), 2 (for high brass 2 3/4" shells), and 3 (the most gas, for low brass birdshot shells). As it turns out, the newer guns are getting more gas than the older ones, as Mike noticed. I have a couple customers with new guns that have never even used the number 3 setting. The other advantage to this plug is that it allows easy changing of the settings by hand, without tools.

 

In some guns, some have noticed that after some shooting sessions that the plug may get stuck in position and need help breaking it loose, after which it moves by hand. Also, on some of the newer guns, which are overgassed, it will barely cycle on "0" with very high pressure loads or 3" loads.

 

The minor changes to the new plug are that tool grooves have been added to the face end, to facilitate moving the plug should it stick, and the addition of a "+" "-" to the 1 position. This allows an even more precise tuning of the gas at the lowest setting, thereby cutting back the gas on overgassed guns. Other than that, it's the same plug, made from the same material.

 

The shop that Mike is using has some state of the art machinery, which is rare in my area. They are able to make the entire plug without the multiple setups and hand work that I was having to do when I was making them. This allows the cost to be greatly reduced. Also, as I get ever more conversion work (I'm not complaining), I have less time to make them.

 

In conclusion, they will be sold by MD Arms, and Firearms Sales. Mostly what Firearms Sales will have will be stock for conversion use.

 

Nate

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Nate thanks for the fix and your time to figure it out. I will be buying one for sure to increase my longevity and consistant operation under all conditions. Truth is without curious guys like; Yourself, Mike, Cameron, Cobra and a few other very mechanically inclined thinkers the rest of us would be sitting around with a bunch of "as good as it gets" russian shotguns. Thanks to all of you who contribute your vast experience with the rest of us.

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Well said Globule. That spelled it out well.

 

 

Gunfixr,

Thanks for your post. I was wondering that exact thing.

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After communicating with gunfixr I am now aware that he is out of plugs and MDARMS is now the source. I sent Mike a PM to order one. I hope they become available soon. I'd like to have one now... :rolleyes:

 

JD

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Which is why MikeD's latest email update and post here left me confused and surprised. I would feel better about this if I hadn't been promised that my order would be shipped with "all the latest updated parts and improvements". So, unless I am mistaken here, MikeD has changed the terms after receiving my deposit, and I've been offered a refund if I don't like it. Am I mistaken here?

 

Yes and you need to do something about it like CANCELLING YOUR ORDER.

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Mike,

 

Good to see you got this info out to the early complainers. I'm guessing the other thread was deleted? If some people would just research their concerns instead of complaining they would save themselves the embarrassment. Anyhow, great job on the new plug product and keep up the good work!

 

That would take alot of work and why go to the effort when whining is so much easier? :devil:

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I AM NOT REAL CONCERNED WITH THE WHOLE GAS PLUG ISSUE. I SAY JUST SHIP THE DRUMS. I DONT KNOW ABOUT ANYONE ELSE BUT I JUST WANT TO GET THE DRUMS THAT I HAVE ORDERED IN MY HANDS. 01-02-09 HAS COME AND GONE AND I STILL DONT HEAR OF ANYONE GETTING ANY DRUMS? HAS SHIPPING EVEN BEGUN? I HOPE THE HOLE GAS PLUG THING IS NOT JUST A COVER UP FOR THE FACT THAT THE DRUMS AREN'T DONE AND AREN'T SHIPPING. AS OF THIS NEXT WEEK WE ARE GETTING A NEW PRESIDENT WHO IS BIG TIME AGAINST WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO BUY. IS ANYONE ELSE A LITTLE NERVIS ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE DRUMS MAY BE BAND BEFORE THEY ARE EVEN BUILT AND SHIPPED? LIKE I SAID I DONT CARE ABOUT THE GAS PLUG JUST SHIP THE DRUMS THAT WE HAVE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR. DONT GET ME WRONG EVERYONE NEEDS TO CONTROL THEIR GAS FROM TIME TO TIME, BUT I JUST WANT MY DRUMS:) THANKS LOVE YA MIKE REBELJDOG

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If they were done, they'd have shipped by now. Read up on the old threads from the first run. They were supposed to be shipped in Fall of '07 and didnt' ship until Fall of '08. While this run will be alot faster since the R&D is mostly completed, and I'm sure Mike has most, if not all, of the necessary parts to build these by now, I don't think we'll get them until at least February. And yes, we are all nervous about the potential ban coming up and how it would affect our drums.

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You will know when he is ready to start shipping. He will charge the other half of the balance to your credit card. He said he would do that, once he has all the parts in hand, so evidentally he is probably still waiting on some of the stuff, likely either the bodies or the metal hardware. Its probably go to be another few weeks at least. Mike is a good guy but the dates he gives out are tentative and often get moved to the right. just be patient You will get billed the 2nd have and get your drums before there is a ban.

 

CJG

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Thanks Mike!!! Class act all the way :super:

 

Just got the email on the gas plug. Had a quick question that I'm sure has a quick answer:

 

Does the new gas plug have some sort of detents for positive engagement at each setting?

 

Thanks for all of the help.

 

Cheers,

-T

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Thanks guys, I just ordered the plug to be put on my order. :)

 

I have a newer model with 4 gas ports, I have no problem getting the cheap walmart stuff to cycle on #1 setting... this plug seems like a great idea all around IMHO.

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The Globule -

 

You wrote "...I have yet to shoot the Saiga 12 I purchased about 6 weeks ago (I want to convert it to pistol grip config first and am still waiting on the ACE folding stock)."

 

I would respectfully suggest that you go try out your new Saiga 12 prior to converting it. There have been a few with the gas ports messed up and RAAC will not warranty you weapon after you alter it. If you don't mind correcting it yourself then disregard.

 

1911

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If mine is working like its suppose to and i think it is. Cycles low brass on 2 just fine but will not cycle low brass on 1

 

Is there still a benefit to getting the new one

 

Also what keeps it from turning if it does not lock in like the factory one

Edited by RUDY850

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The Globule -

 

You wrote "...I have yet to shoot the Saiga 12 I purchased about 6 weeks ago (I want to convert it to pistol grip config first and am still waiting on the ACE folding stock)."

 

I would respectfully suggest that you go try out your new Saiga 12 prior to converting it. There have been a few with the gas ports messed up and RAAC will not warranty you weapon after you alter it. If you don't mind correcting it yourself then disregard.

 

1911

 

Thanks, I appreciate the suggestion.

I did check the gas ports before doing the conversion and I had 4 holes in a diamond pattern so I wasn't too concerned about it.

After converting the gun (AK config with sanding/polishing of all the "good" parts), I went to the range and tried Nobel 7 1/2 high brass and Winchester 3" buck shots #00 on setting "1" and it worked like a charm.

Yesterday, I went back to the range with a box of the cheapest 7 1/2 12 gauge ammo I could find at Wall-Mart (7 1/2 Winchester and 7 1/2 Federal value packs) and gave it a try.

Well, the Winchester FTE every single time... :unsure:

I pulled the gas plug and checked/cleaned the puck to make sure it would not stick.

After screwing the gas plug all the way in, I realized the closest position the plug would lock into was setting "2" (I unscrewed the plug from setting "1" to setting "2" on my first try, backing up the plug one full turn from the tighten position instead of screwing it 1/2 turn like I should have).

Loaded Federal "value pack" in two mags (AGP 10 rds and Surefire 12 rds) and pulled the trigger...

What can I say? I must have been trigger happy because the range master came and asked me to "slow down" the rate of fire so the "neighbors" would not think I was shooting a full auto weapon... :lolol:

Put some more Winchester "value pack" in the mags and got no FTE or FTF :haha:

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The new gas plus do indeed have detents at the positions. They will lock in place and stay there while firing.

 

 

I ordered one of these and can say I am very happy that Mike is offering us these! I needed one anyway for my mods to the firearm to keep it 922r compliant with a Russian mag in it and this seems like a great option.

 

My only question is how easy is it to drop this plug in? Is it just a matter of unscrewing the factory plug and screwing this one in?

 

Thanks

Edited by gangsta99

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Do first run drum OWNERS get the new plug, or only the original PURCHASERS? I bought mine from a member here, NIB.

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The new gas plus do indeed have detents at the positions. They will lock in place and stay there while firing.

My only question is how easy is it to drop this plug in? Is it just a matter of unscrewing the factory plug and screwing this one in?

 

Thanks

 

 

Yes, it is that easy.

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The new gas plus do indeed have detents at the positions. They will lock in place and stay there while firing.

 

 

I ordered one of these and can say I am very happy that Mike is offering us these! I needed one anyway for my mods to the firearm to keep it 922r compliant with a Russian mag in it and this seems like a great option.

 

My only question is how easy is it to drop this plug in? Is it just a matter of unscrewing the factory plug and screwing this one in?

 

Thanks

 

Installing Gunfixr's gas plug is a great addition to your gun but will do nothing for 922r compliance (replacing the gas puck would help though).

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The new gas plus do indeed have detents at the positions. They will lock in place and stay there while firing.

 

 

I ordered one of these and can say I am very happy that Mike is offering us these! I needed one anyway for my mods to the firearm to keep it 922r compliant with a Russian mag in it and this seems like a great option.

 

My only question is how easy is it to drop this plug in? Is it just a matter of unscrewing the factory plug and screwing this one in?

 

Thanks

 

Installing Gunfixr's gas plug is a great addition to your gun but will do nothing for 922r compliance (replacing the gas puck would help though).

 

 

 

Ah hell. Thanks for pointing that out though. Think I found a puck via Cameron at Chaos.

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A quick question, if anyone knows.....

 

If I want to add a gas plug to my already paid drum order, I assume I just have to place a separate order. But, does my card get charged the $15.00 additional shipping for the plug? I assume not, but since the website has to add the S&H charges, I wanted to be sure. I'm really close to my limit. :unsure:

 

My order hasn't shipped yet, but it's getting close.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Corbin

Edited by Corbin

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