SaigaNoobie 66 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ok, what have you heard are the downfalls to the Saiga vs. the standard Tube Fed shotgun? Here are some examples: 1) Not as versatile as a pump because it can't cycle Low-Power rounds (Rubber Buckshot, Beanbags, etc.) 2) Big mags make shooting from prone position impossible or at least less efficient. 3) Transitioning to Slugs or other types of shot are more convenient on the tube, thus the saiga isn't as good for that. 4) ADD WHAT YOU'VE HEARD. I'm looking for any reason why a Tube fed or Pump shotgun would be better than a Saiga. ANY REASON AT ALL! Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Because Remington and Mossberg are afraid of losing the law enforcement shotgun market. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Because Remington and Mossberg are afraid of losing the law enforcement shotgun market. Not exactly the types of downfalls I can test. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
railman1 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Ok, what have you heard are the downfalls to the Saiga vs. the standard Tube Fed shotgun? Here are some examples: 1) Not as versatile as a pump because it can't cycle Low-Power rounds (Rubber Buckshot, Beanbags, etc.) Unless your law enforcement doing crowd control, your chances of using rubber buckshot are about as high as Obamy asking your advice on what gun is best for concealed carry. 2) Big mags make shooting from prone position impossible or at least less efficient. I suppose there IS some slight possibility of needing to shoot a shotgun from prone in a SHTF situation..but the chances are ..(see answer one)...Also, unless you have a neck as tough as steel wire, shooting any shotgun from prone is going to be way down your list of fun things to do. 3) Transitioning to Slugs or other types of shot are more convenient on the tube, thus the saiga isn't as good for that. Which is faster...standing and shucking shells one at a time from a tube gun..or popping out a mag and replacing it with a mag loaded with something different? With all that said..Depending on where you buy it..you might be able to buy two or possibly even three M500 shotguns for the current price of a Saiga...and no mags to buy..Just load it and abuse it...If there is any weapon system on the planet even more dependable than the Ak type weapon, it is the American made pump shotgun. ) ADD WHAT YOU'VE HEARD. I'm looking for any reason why a Tube fed or Pump shotgun would be better than a Saiga. ANY REASON AT ALL! Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 Well - right now - the cost is the biggest issue for me. Gone are the days when S-12's and S-20's sold for around $225-$250 at a gunshow, much less a shop. Also - I can keep 6 rounds of buck/slug in a sidesaddle (on the gun) basically forever whereas it's tough to keep rounds loaded in a Saiga mag (even overnight) without deforming the shells to the point they dumps their pellets or otherwise become misshaped to the point where they won't feed. (I miss that steel cased 12ga Wolf!) Finally - Barrel replacement (due to damage or just to swap a smoothbore to rifled bore and back/forth) is generally easier on a tube gun. Just being Devils advocate... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think alot of people fall for the "simple is better" trap (obviously not realizing just how simple an AK is.) A pump gun seems like it would have fewer parts and therefore be more reliable. Also, I bet many people like the idea of being able to manually clear a jam by just racking the crap out of the gun. Also, availability of parts is a very legitimate concern with the Saiga vs domestically-produced pump. Uhmmm... thats about all I can think of for now. IMHO, the S12 made tube guns obsolete. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
blammo 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I don't have an S-12 so I can't comment on its action directly, but I do have a pump 12ga and a Saiga 7.62x39. The immediate concern that comes to mind is reloading. I know you can change out a S12 magazine a lot faser than you can reload a tube-fed shotgun, but I can load 3 shells into the tube of my mossberg in about a second and a half and don't have to worry about how many fresh mags I have. I keep my fresh shells on my left hip and I grab 3 at a time with the brass end near my pinky. Without lowering the gun from shooting position, I can slap a shell in and ram it forward with my pinky. After the 3 are loaded I rack one (5+1) and load another 3 in the tube. (I've tried loading one into the chamber, but since the feed ramp is blocking the tube when the bolt is back, I'd have to load the 1 first then close the action -- hard to do with 2 shells in your hand). Having never loaded an S-12 magazine I can't say for certain, but I'm willing to bet I can get 6 shells in my Mossberg before you can get 6 shells in a magazine and get that loaded into an S-12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DrWho 10 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 pretty sure i can get 20+12+12+5 off faster then you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
blammo 0 Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 pretty sure i can get 20+12+12+5 off faster then you. I mean reloading the magazines. If you've got a dozen mags you'll probably be fine. But if you only have one or two with you, I'm betting it'll take longer to reload those. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted January 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 i'll bet i can go from Box of shells to 10 + 10 + 5 (AGPs and OEM mag) and then shoot them all, faster than you. Want to video it and race? You video you, I'll video me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wheel 0 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I'd like to see those vids. I suspect they'll be closer in total time than you think, assuming an experienced shooter with the pump. Still, I'm sure the Saiga would win. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) pretty sure i can get 20+12+12+5 off faster then you. Leave your mags loaded for 12 - 24 hours before-hand and we'll talk.... I'll leave my Ithaca loaded for a (Month/Year...) - been loaded for over 4 years already... I won't unload it for the following challenge... Lets go! I have every confidence that my skill with my 13" M-37 will eat your ass for lunch, within 40 yds. You name the Place, the targets and the rounds. I have every confidence that I, and my Ithaca SBS, will beat the shit out of you and the S-[whatever ] you're shooting in short order. Shot or slug... I gives a damn. If slug accuracy is a concern... NP. I call BS on that BRAVODO statement... Time/Place.?.?.? Cameras welcome...! Again - Lets go! Macbeau sends... Edited January 22, 2009 by macbeau Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigdaddyrandall 1 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) I'd like to see those vids. I suspect they'll be closer in total time than you think, assuming an experienced shooter with the pump. Still, I'm sure the Saiga would win. Would not even be close,saiga hands down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edited January 22, 2009 by bigdaddyrandall Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) You sure can load a tube faster than a mag, but the transition from shooting back to loading every 5 shots is definitely going to make the Saiga win. Besides, if that argument was valid in ANY WAY AT ALL, you'd at least see one military in the world using one single pump tube rifle. But nobody is that stupid, because you don't load your mags on the battlefield, you load them from behind sandbags at the very least. Mags sorta replaced loose ammo around the mid 40's. Oh as for a reason that pumps are more effective, some have stronger chambers, for 3.5" shells. Edited January 22, 2009 by Twinsen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) I'd like to see those vids. I suspect they'll be closer in total time than you think, assuming an experienced shooter with the pump. Still, I'm sure the Saiga would win. Edited January 22, 2009 by DogMan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 (edited) "Beware the man that owns but one {shot]gun, for he likely knows how to use it... [benjamin Franklin - 1781] (Bring it...) I have beat Saigas In 3-gun and comp-shotgun regulary - I am not intimidated... One is not better than the other - it's the nut behind the trigger... It's in the hands of the beholder - And I put it out there... Remember - it's not about the rounds expended, it's all about the hits. Again - Feel Froggy - LETS GO.... Edited January 22, 2009 by macbeau Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigdaddyrandall 1 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I think i would feel better about having 10 to 20 rounds at one time !!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 25 rounds loaded in two AGP and one 5rd mag in 44 seconds (My room mate timed me.) Given that I just shot a match last night of 21 targets (including a Texas star) in 42 seconds, then in 29.87 seconds, then in 34 seconds, I'd say that I'm capable of going through 25 targets in 30-40 secs. Including reloads. (mag to mag) So let's add that together, 74-84 seconds. When I go to the range next, I'll video my mag load and unload and time it for ya. Officially. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hallboss 1 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Oh yeah!!!! Well my winky is a half inch longer than yours!!!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted January 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Macbeau, do you want me to leave the mags loaded in the gun or just loaded and sitting loose for 24hrs? Hell, I leave ALL my mags loaded for weeks on end. I even leave 10+1 in the shotgun most times. Never had a problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AgentLQ 3 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 You guys are close enough to get down with it then. C'mon Big Sarn't. Get down. Front back goes for the loser... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakal 10 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 The big mechanical advantage of the mag gun is the reload. The shooter's portion is the time to aquire and engage targets...all things being equal, a mag gun will win. However, all things are not equal, which is why we have competitions. For example, lets use my friend Benny as an example. That short fat old man just flat wears out all competition at moving between shooting positions and in the transitions between targets. I have severely beat him on shotgun stages over the years using mags and drums, because while he is walking and loading, I am running like hell (and thus saving time) since I have already reloaded. And I have been beat like a rented mule on six and eight round "stand and deliver" speed shoots, where Benny has me on the transitions. The big drawback to the mag fed design is the loading of loose rounds. If all the rounds start, for example, "loose in a saddlebag" as specified in a state championship match a few years ago, the tubers can load one/shoot one faster than a mag guy can load a magazine and shoot the magazine. Tubers are also faster with that last "oh shit" shell, usually in a holder of two just in front of the ejection port. The combination of a locked bolt, easily accessable bolt release, and a carrier (so the round doesn't fall out the bottom of the gun) is hard to beat for that handloaded shell. The height of the gun (for low ports) doesn't much matter, because no matter how low the port is and how long the magazine extends, it is still very short...sideways Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 pretty sure i can get 20+12+12+5 off faster then you. Leave your mags loaded for 12 - 24 hours before-hand and we'll talk.... I'll leave my Ithaca loaded for a (Month/Year...) - been loaded for over 4 years already... I won't unload it for the following challenge... Lets go! I have every confidence that my skill with my 13" M-37 will eat your ass for lunch, within 40 yds. You name the Place, the targets and the rounds. I have every confidence that I, and my Ithaca SBS, will beat the shit out of you and the S-[whatever ] you're shooting in short order. Shot or slug... I gives a damn. If slug accuracy is a concern... NP. I call BS on that BRAVODO statement... Time/Place.?.?.? Cameras welcome...! Again - Lets go! Macbeau sends... I have a brass shell as the top round in my mag that I keep in the shotty, and have had mags sit for months and still feed reliably. Find someone that reloads shotgun shells and have them buy some brass hulls and make you a batch up. That is what I did. They do need to put a curve on the front lip of the brass rd to help it feed better. If there is a problem, find the solution to it and fix the problem. I have 20 rd drum + 7 10 rd mags + 1 13 rd mag. Total of 103 rds before I have to worry about reloading mags. If I need to reload after that many rounds, I would have been screwed using a pump way before hand anyway. Plus I can keep some mags loaded with #00 buck, some with slugs and some with smaller buck. That way I can react to the situation by simply grabbing the mag I feel is best suited for the threat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I watched Apaloosa last night. I think that 8 gauge double barrel might be all you need........ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I ran a dry run. 53 seconds from loose to loaded and fired. (Including time for mag insertions on closed bolt and time to pull trigger 25 times.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rocinante 100 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 If it is a defensive weapon there is nobody going to make me believe a pump or tube gun is better. HOWEVER if you are skeet or trap shooting the saiga is a pain. An over and under shotgun is perfect because they only allow two shells max and are stringent about keeping the breach open when you are not shooting. Constantly taking the magazine in and out and keeping up with it is an inconvenience. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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