jma037 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 (edited) Okay guys, before I say anything, I just want to get somethings stright. Pistol grip = sexy Chaos rail = sexy DPH tri rail = sexy Surefire fore-rail = sexy Foreward- trigger group = sexy Laser, light, red dot sight = sexy Now the formalities is out of the way, let's cut the bulllshit. Does a converted Saiga-12 actiually make any difference. I've been using an Un-converted Saiga 12 for a while now. I'm talking about stright out of Russia in the box with the sporter stock. AND i've played around with a converted Saiga-12. I DID NOT notice any SIGNIFICANT difference in the performance of the weapon converted and un-converted. I can kill whatever I want to kill with a converted Saiga the same as I can with a un-converted Saiga. Time to shoulder. Same. Damage. Same. Reload. Same. Rapid shot controlability. Same. I know how sexy a converted Saiga can get. BUT. ALL BULLSHIT aside. FUNCTIONALY. Does a converted Saiga make any difference? Think of all the money you spend on the conversion. How many rounds can you buy with it to practice? Anyone else feel the same way? I think stright out the box the Saiga is a potent weapon as it is. Don't F*ck with what works! Edited January 24, 2009 by jma037 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
banshee 69 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 no different than putting nice custom wheels on a car, custom paint job or a big stereo system. It comes down to personal preference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 The trigger is much improved by converting. That is why I am doing it. The stock trigger has way to much creep. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
USMC_LB 4 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 The #1 reason most people do a pistolgrip conversion is...... ::drumroll:: If you stick a 10 round mag in your stock shotgun, you are breaking the law because of 922r. You cannot import a semi-auto shotgun that takes a magazine with a capacity greater than 5 rounds. You also cannot make one from foreign parts. BUT If you subtract enough foreign parts and replace them with US made parts to get the parts count down to 10 or less foreign parts then you are LEGAL. The shotgun is no longer restricted by 922r. There use to be only a handful of US made parts. Now there is a plethera of great quality US made parts available. There are several routes you can go. Bottom line is though, if you insert a mag that has a capacity greater than 5 in a factory stock Saiga 12, then you are breaking the law. If you have any questions feel free to IM me anytime. LB Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Here's the real bullshit: That the Russians had to butcher the original AK design to satisfy the bullshit unconstitutional requirement that it has to be a "sporting" arm to be imported. So reason #1, it's an insult. #2 is that the relocated trigger has a bunch of bullshit linkage to get it to operate in it's incorrect place. #3 is that the the balance is messed up with the grip and trigger moved back. #4 is that if you leave it the way it is, then the anti-gun assholes win, and you are admitting defeat. Add these to the other reasons that are well stated above. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Here's the real bullshit: That the Russians had to butcher the original AK design to satisfy the bullshit unconstitutional requirement that it has to be a "sporting" arm to be imported. So reason #1, it's an insult. #2 is that the relocated trigger has a bunch of bullshit linkage to get it to operate in it's incorrect place. #3 is that the the balance is messed up with the grip and trigger moved back. #4 is that if you leave it the way it is, then the anti-gun assholes win, and you are admitting defeat. Add these to the other reasons that are well stated above. What they said! ^ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nailbomb 10,221 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 The original stock feels like garbage. I guess it works, but i wouldn't call it anything more than a bottom line. As soon as i grabbed it it creaked under grip. thats CHEAP. A PG not only feels right but helps reduce recoil by allowing the webbing of your thumb and index absorb some shock. throw that on top of a upgraded trigger group and we have a winner. yeah it works out of the box, but the ergonomics are far from desirable. At a minimum i would recomend a different stock, even a wooden sporter stock would give it better balance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 JMA037, do whatever makes you happy, no BULLSHIT. But this is not a one size fits all world, why try and come up with the one correct answer for everyone? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TR Young 175 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 If you shot a converted S-12 and DIDN'T notice the trigger pull being vastly improved, the FCG that was in the converted S-12 must have been absolute garbage. The FCG that I received from Dinzag reduced the poundage significantly and was so much more smooth that there was no comparison at all. The FCGs in the imported guns are awful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Mark 2,452 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 I don't know about the others reasons but mine is quite simple. This is a great new hobby for me. I have always enjoyed building things and fixing things and the shooting sports. This just seems like a natural combination. I only wish I had discover it long ago instead of what appears to be a couple months before it is outlawed. ( F#*@king liberals) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
748 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Befor the conversion using a tapco FCG my trigger pull like like that of an H&K. For people not lucky enough to shoot an HK the trigger pull is like flushing a toilet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 As Azrial said, other people's opinions shouldn't matter in your choice. I grew up with an M-16, so I vastly prefer the pistol-grip. The only thing I want to add is that your converted Saiga will double in value after the AWB. The unconverted ones will not, since they are "sporting weapons" and therefore unaffected by the ban. You will not be able to legally convert your gun after the ban. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
7.62x39 0 Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 Does a converted Saiga-12 actiually make any difference. I've been using an Un-converted Saiga 12 for a while now. I'm talking about stright out of Russia in the box with the sporter stock. AND i've played around with a converted Saiga-12. FUNCTIONALY. Does a converted Saiga make any difference? Think of all the money you spend on the conversion. How many rounds can you buy with it to practice? Anyone else feel the same way? I think stright out the box the Saiga is a potent weapon as it is. Don't F*ck with what works! Actually that one straight out of the box is the converted Saiga. They have to convert it to "sporting configuration" in order to be able to import them. Adding that mickey mouse linkage in order to move the trigger back, just adds a bunch of unnecessary moving parts. We are really unconverting them back to their original design configuration. This much improves the balance as far as I'm concerned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Actually that one straight out of the box is the converted Saiga. They have to convert it to "sporting configuration" in order to be able to import them. Adding that mickey mouse linkage in order to move the trigger back, just adds a bunch of unnecessary moving parts. We are really unconverting them back to their original design configuration. This much improves the balance as far as I'm concerned. Yes, that's why it should be called a "restoration" when you un-convert it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rightwingnut 0 Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 If you have a pistol grip stock on the gun you can have an sorter length of pull. I dont' mean that the stock can collapse & it can be shorter. What I mean is the minimum usable lengnth of a telestock is less than the minimum usable length of a old timey stock. This is b/c w/ a pistol grip stock, you can put your nose right behind the receiver, as it were w/ your "nose to the charging handle", whereas w/ an old timey stock your the closest you can plant your nose it behind your hand. Now this means two things: 1. the guns OAL can be less which has some usefulness in CQB 2. the gun will be easier to hold up in front of you b/c its weight will be closer to your body. This is especially useful if you are holding the gun in more of a "tactical shooting stance" where you are more square to your target than a traditional stance where your body is more bladed. Thus you will not fatigue as easily w/ the weapon at the shoulder [though of course, in a gun fight you hold it however you can from behind cover] The other benefit it that the weapon can be more compact for storage/transport etc. You can sort of get the benefit of the shorter LOP w/ the bolt on PG collapsible stocks. One of mine has a Tapco collapsible stock on it. I leave the stock all the way collapsed & shoot NTCH. I should point out though that w/ the stock all the way collapsed, when I try to shoot in a more traditional target stance, I cant keep the butt from slipping off my shoulder. Its kind of hard to explain but the problem is that my storng hand it too close to my strong shoulder so my shoulder doesn't stick out far enough to serve as a good rest for the butt. If the pistol grip has been moved forward this is not a problem so I can effectively shoulder the weapon w/ the stock all the way collapsed whether I am shooting in a Tactical or Target type posture. So, getting a gun converted is definitely ideal. At least get a tapco stock for it so that it will be grandfathered in case of a ban. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Here's the real bullshit: That the Russians had to butcher the original AK design to satisfy the bullshit unconstitutional requirement that it has to be a "sporting" arm to be imported. So reason #1, it's an insult. #2 is that the relocated trigger has a bunch of bullshit linkage to get it to operate in it's incorrect place. #3 is that the the balance is messed up with the grip and trigger moved back. #4 is that if you leave it the way it is, then the anti-gun assholes win, and you are admitting defeat. Add these to the other reasons that are well stated above. +1000 , ya hit the nail right on the head. Of course, its your gun so do what ya want with it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Oblofusc 0 Posted January 26, 2009 Report Share Posted January 26, 2009 I had my 19" stock S-12 for a while before I sent it to Tony for Tromixization. What a pathetic thing the stock, unconverted gun was, as a shotgun. Virtually any other U.S. semiauto shotgun had a better trigger, better balance, better sights, and better feel. The Tromix end product is so much better, to me there's no debate or comparison. This is kinda like saying what's the difference between a 54 year old obese fugly woman and a hot, tight 22 year old in bed. Sure, the actual "equipment" might feel the same in the dark, but dude, if that's all that mattered . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dtromblee 0 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 +1000 with what pedal2 said. And most others to be honest. To conform to unconstitutional regulations is HORSE SHIT. I would much rather have the real deal and dare the mother fuckers to take it away................... On point, its your gun and your cash, do as only you see fit. I however much prefer my converted siaga. The feel the performance and the down right nasty nature she has is second to none...........I'm locked and loaded boys. DT Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Delta 5.56 0 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Here's the real bullshit: That the Russians had to butcher the original AK design to satisfy the bullshit unconstitutional requirement that it has to be a "sporting" arm to be imported. So reason #1, it's an insult. #2 is that the relocated trigger has a bunch of bullshit linkage to get it to operate in it's incorrect place. #3 is that the the balance is messed up with the grip and trigger moved back. #4 is that if you leave it the way it is, then the anti-gun assholes win, and you are admitting defeat. Add these to the other reasons that are well stated above. Sig line material right there! well said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
myndseye 0 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) I agree in making a gun all that it can be, but lets be serious here guys; balance, creep, poundage, and any other trigger pulling arguement you can come up with is crap. These are not 500 yard precision sniper rifles, they are shotguns. Point it over there, pull the trigger, and blow away whats over there. I am willing to bet that over 90% of you guys just wail out rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger. Unless you are shooting a (longer than anything ever to be confused with tactical) rifled barrel, at targets 100 yards away, I doubt that you are getting any benefit from any of the improvements you are citing. Don't get me wrong, mine is one of those converted, belt them out as fast as I can pull the trigger, machines of destruction too, but I do own a G3 clone converted to PRS specs with all the adjustment enhancements I can afford, and on it, I do appreciate the adjustable trigger's benefits. Edited January 27, 2009 by myndseye Quote Link to post Share on other sites
7.62x39 0 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 I agree in making a gun all that it can be, but lets be serious here guys; balance, creep, poundage, and any other trigger pulling arguement you can come up with is crap. You can question trigger function all you want, but I can't see how you can question the difference in balance and handling. Especially in any situation other than shoulder mounted. In a HD or room clearing situation the PG style is much more maneuverable in my book. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Prodge 0 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 (edited) I'm going to agree with pedal2 also. I converted mine after the first trip to the range. I had decided I'd give it a chance before converting but I had previously converted my x39 and right away I noticed the sloppy trigger and less balanced feel. The gun works in stock form but it works sooo much better converted that it is WELL worth it to me. Besides, the cost was not that much.... Tromix modded trigger group: 50 bux Tromix Diy Trigger Guard: 50 bux Pistol Grip: 20 bux T6 Stock: 50 bux Taking that bad ass piece of machinery out of your rifle bag at the range and having everyone come over to drool all over it...PRICELESS!!! lol...well cleaning the drool off is not soo cool but you get the idea!! Edited January 27, 2009 by Prodge Quote Link to post Share on other sites
myndseye 0 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Taking that bad ass piece of machinery out of your rifle bag at the range and having everyone come over to drool all over it...PRICELESS!!! lol...well cleaning the drool off is not soo cool but you get the idea!! Thats the real reason right there Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wotan1105 7 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Yes it definitely looks 10 times better than the stock sporter. There are lots of good reasons. Personally, being new to rifles/shotguns in general. I first picked up my S12 just to have something other than a pistol in the house for whatever might happen. Plus it's a fun hobby and know others who shoot. So plan on getting good use out of it for years to come. My personal reason for jumping in and converting it myself was to become familiar and comfortable with all aspects of it. Taking apart, handling, understanding how it works, etc.. Has been a great learning process (as is being on these boards) and would recommend anyone doing it on their own with a few tools and are comfortable working on things on their own. Plus I get to truly make it MINE MINE MINE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 I started out vowing to leave mine factory. Then I put a russian made thumbhole stock on it. But the trigger was not what I wanted, and I wanted to legally be able to use hi cap mags in my shotty. Once you get started, its hard to stop, be forewarned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
7.62x39 0 Posted January 27, 2009 Report Share Posted January 27, 2009 Besides, the cost was not that much.... Tromix modded trigger group: 50 bux Tromix Diy Trigger Guard: 50 bux Pistol Grip: 20 bux T6 Stock: 50 bux With the excepton of the tri-rail that I bought from DPH, mine cost me $0 Everything else I found by scrounging around the shop for parts left over from previous AK builds and spares. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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