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Saiga Dilemma- tough choices to make!


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Hey everyone,

 

I'm in a bit of a quandary over keeping my new Saiga or selling it. This is my problem- I can only afford one .223 or 7.62x39 defense rifle but it has to have a folding stock as I do not want drag around a full-sized rifle (or carbine) if things get rough (attract attention from the wrong people). I found after buying the Saiga (paid $450, was $500 dollars after shipping and transfer fees) that I have to spend at least another $250 to $400 dollars in order to add a decent folding stock plus a 3-4 high capacity mags to make it this way. This would make the gun a $750 to $900 dollar gun minimum!!!! (On a side note, Saigas are no longer a bargain except as a "sporting rifle", to the point that just buying a full AK-47 at around $900 to $100 would make more sense if you want a high-capacity defense rifle).

 

On the other hand, I just bought a new Kel Tec SU-16C .223 rifle for $450 (got lucky and found one in a small gun shop and paid a pre-election price for it) and it is "turn-key", in that it already folds, shoots from the folding position, no compliance issues, is half the weight of the Saiga, and the biggest thing is that it takes super cheap AR-15 Colt magazines (I even got two of these thrown in with the deal).

 

So, one has to go as I can't afford to keep both. I know the pros and cons of each weapon. Saigas are built like tanks BUT if it does need repair or parts I'm not how easy this would be to find, plus I would have to pay out of my pocket (no warranty). The Kel Tec is covered for life, which is nice to know.

 

What sayeth the crowd? (and please, no Kel Tec bashing- I'm aware of the arguments, plus I have a Kel Tec Sub-2000 in Glock 17 that's super reliable).

 

Thanks

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Here is a simple test from a guy that has seen his share of ARs jam and has had his jam on him in some very bad times. Take your weapon throw it on the ground and kick dirt into it with the mag in and the bolt forward. Next shoot it for 3 rapid fire magazines. If it doesn't jam once then you can put your life on it because if you can live through 3 magazine changes either they are dead or you have time to run while they try to reload there mags.

 

When it comes to putting my life on my rifles I own two. A Saiga in 7.62x39 that is converted, and a Mosin 91/30 that made it through two world wars and has a huge knock down range. For pistols I have a 1911. I believe in knockdown power and no questions asked reliability because I've seen first hand that those two things keep you alive. If my weapons can't do those two things they don't stay with me period.

 

And I've stated many times that a .223 will not stop a grown man. And definately won't stop one drugged up.

 

Just food for thought.

 

Good luck,

Merritt

SGT USMC vet.

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Hey everyone,

 

I'm in a bit of a quandary over keeping my new Saiga or selling it. This is my problem- I can only afford one .223 or 7.62x39 defense rifle but it has to have a folding stock as I do not want drag around a full-sized rifle (or carbine) if things get rough (attract attention from the wrong people). I found after buying the Saiga (paid $450, was $500 dollars after shipping and transfer fees) that I have to spend at least another $250 to $400 dollars in order to add a decent folding stock plus a 3-4 high capacity mags to make it this way. This would make the gun a $750 to $900 dollar gun minimum!!!! (On a side note, Saigas are no longer a bargain except as a "sporting rifle", to the point that just buying a full AK-47 at around $900 to $100 would make more sense if you want a high-capacity defense rifle).

 

On the other hand, I just bought a new Kel Tec SU-16C .223 rifle for $450 (got lucky and found one in a small gun shop and paid a pre-election price for it) and it is "turn-key", in that it already folds, shoots from the folding position, no compliance issues, is half the weight of the Saiga, and the biggest thing is that it takes super cheap AR-15 Colt magazines (I even got two of these thrown in with the deal).

 

So, one has to go as I can't afford to keep both. I know the pros and cons of each weapon. Saigas are built like tanks BUT if it does need repair or parts I'm not how easy this would be to find, plus I would have to pay out of my pocket (no warranty). The Kel Tec is covered for life, which is nice to know.

 

What sayeth the crowd? (and please, no Kel Tec bashing- I'm aware of the arguments, plus I have a Kel Tec Sub-2000 in Glock 17 that's super reliable).

 

Thanks

 

 

Hello coloradowildman,

 

This comes down to: What do you prefer 7.62 or .223 . Next is the K.I.S.S. approach. As you say, you have the SU-16C (Bird in hand). If cash is the problem, the answer is obvious. Fish or cut bait time :smoke: IMHO, I would go with 7.62 . This is not about the money in the end. I too have a Sub2K S&W. I think Kel-Tec makes a good product. But, The SU16 was not build to take the beating that the Saiga Rifle can take.

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Here is a simple test from a guy that has seen his share of ARs jam and has had his jam on him in some very bad times. Take your weapon throw it on the ground and kick dirt into it with the mag in and the bolt forward. Next shoot it for 3 rapid fire magazines. If it doesn't jam once then you can put your life on it because if you can live through 3 magazine changes either they are dead or you have time to run while they try to reload there mags.

 

When it comes to putting my life on my rifles I own two. A Saiga in 7.62x39 that is converted, and a Mosin 91/30 that made it through two world wars and has a huge knock down range. For pistols I have a 1911. I believe in knockdown power and no questions asked reliability because I've seen first hand that those two things keep you alive. If my weapons can't do those two things they don't stay with me period.

 

And I've stated many times that a .223 will not stop a grown man. And definately won't stop one drugged up.

 

Just food for thought.

 

Good luck,

Merritt

SGT USMC vet.

 

 

i second everything you said... for what its worth i would not even put a kel tec 223 and saiga in 7.62 on a similar enough level to compare..

 

 

the only hard choice you face is...

1) who to sell the kel tec to

2) where to get the cash to finish your saiga project

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If things do get "rough" that KT warranty isn't going to do you much good. I have nearly 5000 rounds through a Saiga with only 2 FTF (mag problems). Secondly AR mags are cheap. There is a reason for that. They are made cheap. The good ones (H&K MagPul) on the other hand are not cheap priced or made.. 5.56 ammo compared to 7.62x39 ammo is no comparison at all in price. The choice is clear.

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I have (2) Saiga 308-1s. The first I purchased had to be sent back for warranty work. It jammed! Yes...ak's are not magic...they will jam. I also own (2) romanian ak's and (2) yugo underfolders. I owned a older su-16. It never jammed once. I traded it for a nib su-16ca. It jammed constantly. Then I switched to a different brand of 30 round magazine. It still jams 1-2 times every 50-75 rounds. I think it has something to do with the forward deflecting charging handle. I'll fix that. However, when I use the original 30 round magazine I kept in the buttstock it will still jam constantly. That reminds me to throw that magazine away. I've never had a sks jam when using the factory box magazine. They will, in my experience, jam like hell with the aftermarket hi-caps I purchased. The point I'm trying to make is to throughly test whatever firearm you choose with every magazine you may use in it. A wise man once told me opinions are like assholes...everybody has one. Bolt v Auto...308 v 223...AK V AR...Bud lite v Miller lite...every wanna be Rambo will tell you something different as to what firearm to depend upon and which caliber. The bottom line is "it's is your ass"...protect it as best you see fit.

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I have (2) Saiga 308-1s. The first I purchased had to be sent back for warranty work. It jammed! Yes...ak's are not magic...they will jam. I also own (2) romanian ak's and (2) yugo underfolders. I owned a older su-16. It never jammed once. I traded it for a nib su-16ca. It jammed constantly. Then I switched to a different brand of 30 round magazine. It still jams 1-2 times every 50-75 rounds. I think it has something to do with the forward deflecting charging handle. I'll fix that. However, when I use the original 30 round magazine I kept in the buttstock it will still jam constantly. That reminds me to throw that magazine away. I've never had a sks jam when using the factory box magazine. They will, in my experience, jam like hell with the aftermarket hi-caps I purchased. The point I'm trying to make is to throughly test whatever firearm you choose with every magazine you may use in it. A wise man once told me opinions are like assholes...everybody has one. Bolt v Auto...308 v 223...AK V AR...Bud lite v Miller lite...every wanna be Rambo will tell you something different as to what firearm to depend upon and which caliber. The bottom line is "it's is your ass"...protect it as best you see fit.

 

I do believe I just went from Combat vet. to want to be Rambo..... PS I'm a Marine not a "A ren't R eal M arines Y et" If you want to see the difference in person my door is always open. I just can't promise you will walk out.

 

But he is correct about your opinion and what works best for you is what is best for you. And always remember that there is no replacement for practice. The best weapon in the world is useless unless you can operate it without thinking.

 

Good luck,

Merritt

SGT USMC vet.

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I do believe I just went from Combat vet. to want to be Rambo..... PS I'm a Marine not a "A ren't R eal M arines Y et"

When I was in Kosovo ( 101st Airborne) the Marines were known as "not even there". But I know what you mean, going from a CIB , Bronze star wearing trooper,to a want to be Rambo myself.

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OUCH! The Rambo comment ruffled some feathers. And I did not ask or care if anyone is a marine or not. My cousin was a marine and he couldn't whip my sister. And now the army and marines are going to war! Calm down boys. There's still an ongoing war that hasn't been won yet!

 

Seriously...I have nothing but respect for the military and your service. The comments were not directed toward anyone personally. Owning a weapon and knowing how to properly use it and when to use a weapon is of the upmost importance. And a weapon does not make one a tough guy...even the want to be Rambos. With a firearm comes responsibility. On American soil it's the boys in blue that rule and learning the law as it pretains to self defense is paramount. And Police Officers do not care if someone served in the military or not. It does not cloak one in any form of immunity if the law is broken. Actually, many of us have been in the military but we will not tolerate an idiot who is careless with a firearm. Talk is meaningless in law enforcement circles...the boys in blue always win...period! My own father tried to shoot a car thief stealing a vehicle off of our car lot and he became angry at me when I tried to explain to him how much trouble he would of been in if he had shot the thief. Not to mention a civil lawsuit! Hell, he could have been arrested for discharging a firearm within city limits.

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I might add I agree with usmc mwroseberry about the 223. It will work but it never impressed me. I like the 7.62x39 better and love the 308. Saw a police standoff where a very large shirtless farmboy with a mental disorder picked a shotgun off the hood of a pickup truck after he was warned to put it down. One 308 to the right side of his chest ended everything right then and there. Tragic but he had made his mind up to fight!

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This topic has gotten a bit of coarse.

 

I did not deal directly with the 101st Airborne. I was in Fallujah on EOD security. My techs had 80K bounties on their heads and I had 70K. To them that's about 1.2 and 1.4 million. Needless to say the other branch's unit decided to leave a firm base guarded by 3 troops while everyone else when back to camp fallujah to talk on the internet and phone. While they were gone they were over run and I got to clean up the mess, clear the base, and help my techs inspect for booby traps. It's bad enough this happened once but it happened another two times in the 8 months I was there.

 

I understand that they were not Airborne or Rangers as I know if your sister was whooping a Marine I promise you he was not a part of a victor class unit (aka grunt, arty, tank, LAV). I'm just speaking from my experience and I saw men die that didn't need to die. Which happens in every branch.

 

And like stated before while on EOD sec my job was to set up quardens. House clearing was a multiple time a day event. So all my engagements happened within 75yards the whole time I was there. And you learn real fast what you can and can't rely on. You NEED knockdown power to keep you alive, PERIOD. If you get anything from all this pick up on that and practice, practice and practice some more. Practice failure drills, practice speed and hasty reloads, practice multiple target engagements. Make that weapon a part of you so you don't have to think to use it. Those things will save your life when the crap goes down.

 

Just my opinion.

 

Good luck,

Merritt

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Thanks for the replies everyone. Nice to hear from some former and present military folks as well. I served in the Army Reserves during the first Gulf War so I really appreciate the military guys point of view.

 

The points concerning reliability and knockdown are very important, but of course it also comes down to what one afford, espeically in today's economic climate. The SU-16C has the same gas piston system as the AK, and according to SU-16C and CA owners at the Kel Tec forum, the weapon is overall extremely reliable (one guy has out 10k rounds through this "cheap" gun without a failure).

 

I've decided that I'm going to try and keep both, at least until I can get a better feel for them. The Saiga will have to stay as a sporter, though, because I just cannot afford to convert it. Myabe I'll get lucky and find some used conversion parts and will then have the weapon I really want.

 

On a side note, the AK round is definitely meaner than a 223, as demonstrated in the North Hollywood shootout where those 7.62 rounds were going through both sides of a cop car like butter. If one had a bunch of armed gang members pull up in a car to one's house in a SHTF situation, I'd definitely want a rifle chambered in 7.62x39 to defend myself over the 223.

 

Does anyone here know the absolute cheapest way to legally put a folding stock, pistol grip, and high-cap Surefire mags on a Saiga?

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Thanks for the replies everyone. Nice to hear from some former and present military folks as well. I served in the Army Reserves during the first Gulf War so I really appreciate the military guys point of view.

 

The points concerning reliability and knockdown are very important, but of course it also comes down to what one afford, espeically in today's economic climate. The SU-16C has the same gas piston system as the AK, and according to SU-16C and CA owners at the Kel Tec forum, the weapon is overall extremely reliable (one guy has out 10k rounds through this "cheap" gun without a failure).

 

I've decided that I'm going to try and keep both, at least until I can get a better feel for them. The Saiga will have to stay as a sporter, though, because I just cannot afford to convert it. Myabe I'll get lucky and find some used conversion parts and will then have the weapon I really want.

 

On a side note, the AK round is definitely meaner than a 223, as demonstrated in the North Hollywood shootout where those 7.62 rounds were going through both sides of a cop car like butter. If one had a bunch of armed gang members pull up in a car to one's house in a SHTF situation, I'd definitely want a rifle chambered in 7.62x39 to defend myself over the 223.

 

Does anyone here know the absolute cheapest way to legally put a folding stock, pistol grip, and high-cap Surefire mags on a Saiga?

 

tapco folding stock (not the best but will work)

tapco saw grip

pistol grip nut

Tapco fcg

retainer plate

 

That is the cheapest way to go if you stick with surefire mags

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usmc mwroseberry...nothing but respect! I assure you any reference about rambo was not directed at you or any other military personel putting their ass on the line. I re-read what I wrote and I probably need to be a little more careful how I word things. Words, particularly typed instead of articulated, are easily mistaken as to their true meaning. I also realized I rambled on a bit about firearm responsibility but a family members stepson has been pulling armed robberies in Vincennes and they simply will not listen. The kid is 17 and part of a punk gang. They call themselves the "g's". He thinks it makes him tough. Dumbass kid is going to hurt someone or get shot!

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If you can't afford the conversion at once, don't stress about it. By pieces and parts as you can. When at the gun show while buying ammo, mags, or whatever, swing by some of the parts folks and pick up a piece here and there. Before you know it, you'll have everything you need to do it.

 

Firearm responsibility is practice by those that are responsible, those that are'nt will eventually find themselves (or someone else) out of the gene pool.

 

Having served in the Marines and having an AR, I preffer my new AKs over it and have not even shot it in over 3 years. I won't get rid of it, but I no longer consider it in even my top 5 firearms to use. Get some range time, get a good amount of ammo, run drills of changing mags and then make the best decision for you.

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