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1st trip to the range- 7" to 8" bench rest groups at 100yard


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I posted earlier here that I was concerned that my factory tested grouping seemed high but wanted to get to the range first before making any judgments. So I went out today and bench tested my Saiga at 100 yards using Norinco lead core FMJ rounds, shooting at neon-orange standard 100 yard rifle targets. Sadly, the best I could do was about 7" groups taking my time squeezing off the rounds slowly. Now mind you, I was not only an expert marksman when I was in the Army Reserves but also shot the best of my class (with an M-16 of course). When I stood and shot unassisted, shooting slowly like on the bench rest, the groups opened up to 12" to 14" wide- yikes!

 

As a defensive weapon, I think these groups are reasonable. As a deer hunting rifle with open sights, I wouldn't want to try it unless at 50 yards or less. I am going to try some American made hunting ammo and see if this makes a noticeable difference. Maybe a scope with better ammo will shrink my unsupported shots down to 6" to 8" at 100 yards, but that seems to be the best I could hope for. Good enough to hunt mule deer if I am within 100 yards but anything beyond and I risk lightly wounding the animal and making it suffer instead of a humane kill.

 

So all in all I am very impressed with the Saiga as an under 100 yards defense weapon, as it seems very reliable, well built, easy to maintain, and easy to shoot fast for such a powerful round. As a hunting weapon, at least mine in particular, leaves much to be desired. I was hoping to have a good all around brush rifle that serves double duty as a hunting rifle\self defense weapon. If better ammo and a scope cuts my groups in half then it might still serve this purpose, but I was still hoping for better.

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Post a picture of the target if you can and I can help you with marksmanship. However I would think the rounds play a major role. I just installed a muzzle break and I was pulling off hammer pairs from the standing at 50yards and kept everything under 3.5" groups. Slow fire I can keep everything (standing) at under 1.5" at 50.

 

Are your rounds going consistantly straight up and down? Are they all over the place? Are you trying to Kentucky windage between shots? Are you focusing on the front sight post every time? Do you hold the trigger to the rear and ride the barrel back down to the natural point of aim after each shot?

 

I would use my saiga to hunt with any day of the week. My Mosin out shoots it past 300 but that is only because of the round and the fact the Mosin is a bolt gun.

 

I would stick with brown bear, silver bear, Wolf HP, Wolf black box, or tiger. I have never shot the rounds you have mentioned. I get the best groups with Silver bear, Wolf HP and Tiger.

 

Good luck,

Merritt

SGT USMC vet.

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Post a picture of the target if you can and I can help you with marksmanship. However I would think the rounds play a major role. I just installed a muzzle break and I was pulling off hammer pairs from the standing at 50yards and kept everything under 3.5" groups. Slow fire I can keep everything (standing) at under 1.5" at 50.

 

Are your rounds going consistantly straight up and down? Are they all over the place? Are you trying to Kentucky windage between shots? Are you focusing on the front sight post every time? Do you hold the trigger to the rear and ride the barrel back down to the natural point of aim after each shot?

 

I would use my saiga to hunt with any day of the week. My Mosin out shoots it past 300 but that is only because of the round and the fact the Mosin is a bolt gun.

 

I would stick with brown bear, silver bear, Wolf HP, Wolf black box, or tiger. I have never shot the rounds you have mentioned. I get the best groups with Silver bear, Wolf HP and Tiger.

 

Good luck,

Merritt

SGT USMC vet.

 

I appreciate your advice but as I mentioned in my original post I was an Expert marksman in the Army Reserves (active duty during the first Gulf War) so I definitely know the basics of shooting a rifle for accuracy, including breath control, etc. I think the trigger pull was probably a large factor because it feels to be about 9-10lbs, way too heavy for any normal rifle. I've googled some forums about the Norinco ammo and it seems to be pretty highly regarded, even selling for a large premium over Wolf and Brown Bear on Gunbroker. I still want to try some other ammo though. I may end up calling RAA and telling them what I think of the crummy accuracy of this weapon billed as a "hunting rifle" if different ammo doesn't improve the groups next time out. I have every reason to want to keep this gun as I think it's a fabulous rifle outside of the accuracy problem.

Edited by coloradowildman
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Post a picture of the target if you can and I can help you with marksmanship. However I would think the rounds play a major role. I just installed a muzzle break and I was pulling off hammer pairs from the standing at 50yards and kept everything under 3.5" groups. Slow fire I can keep everything (standing) at under 1.5" at 50.

 

Are your rounds going consistantly straight up and down? Are they all over the place? Are you trying to Kentucky windage between shots? Are you focusing on the front sight post every time? Do you hold the trigger to the rear and ride the barrel back down to the natural point of aim after each shot?

 

I would use my saiga to hunt with any day of the week. My Mosin out shoots it past 300 but that is only because of the round and the fact the Mosin is a bolt gun.

 

I would stick with brown bear, silver bear, Wolf HP, Wolf black box, or tiger. I have never shot the rounds you have mentioned. I get the best groups with Silver bear, Wolf HP and Tiger.

 

Good luck,

Merritt

SGT USMC vet.

With this all i can say is well put...

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Didn't see your prior post, but I believe the Saiga doesn't pass inspection much over 5" at 100 yds. I'd try some new ammo - try some silver bear or brown bear HP & FMJ. Not too expensive and mine likes them. Maybe the wind was really blowing???

 

The wind was a little breezy but nothing major. The shots where flying around the target a bit, especially when shooting offhand, which I think has to do with the very heavy trigger pull. I don't know what the Saiga engineers were thinking when they decided to put a trigger as heavy as a double action revolver on a rifle marketed for hunting! If any of you know about the Smith and Wesson Sigma 9mm SW9VE pistol and its infamously heavy trigger pull (I do!) then my Saiga feels within 1-2 lbs of Sigma's awful trigger pull (heavy!). By comparison, my Glock 19's trigger pull feels like a finely tuned target rifle trigger lol.

 

Maybe I just got a heavier than normal trigger pull due to production variances.

Edited by coloradowildman
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Well I'll put my 2 cents worth.............The saiga sights like other AK iron sights, Suck! You might look at replacing them with a drop-in type sight, like the one by Mojo sighting system. Even if your problem ends up being ammo or something else, you'll end up with a much better iron sight.

 

http://mojosights.com/ak47_sks.html

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http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/Pro...20UPGRADE%20KIT

 

Sounds like you prefer a lighter trigger pull (as do I) Check out the above link. :)

 

Thanks for the link 1911. I'll keep that in mind as a possibility for the future if it doesn't affect the guns reliability (i.e. problems with light primer strikes, etc.)

 

Problem is that I'm not going to spend money on a brand new weapon to make it like everyone else's normal weapon. I've heard that RAA can be responsive to problems with their products so I hope in my case they will help make this right. If I remember correctly the factory cert that came in the box said this thing shot close to 6" at 100 meters, so I'm actually pretty close to that in my testing (7" to 8"). Personally, I think I got a Saiga with too heavy of a trigger which explains the problems with the groups and the shots jumping around. I've never shot any rifle or shotgun with anything approaching how bad the trigger is on this Saiga.

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Well I'll put my 2 cents worth.............The saiga sights like other AK iron sights, Suck! You might look at replacing them with a drop-in type sight, like the one by Mojo sighting system. Even if your problem ends up being ammo or something else, you'll end up with a much better iron sight.

 

http://mojosights.com/ak47_sks.html

 

eadodd, yeah, the sights leave something to be desired no doubt, but I should be able to shoot 5" or less on the bench like the majority of other Saiga owners. I think the ultra-heavy trigger is "pulling" me off target, resulting in the bad groups. I had to concentrate like hell using every bit of my breath to pull the trigger back without "pulling" the gun while maintaining my aim. I've shot 10s of other rifles and shotguns, including SKS, M-16s, etc. and this Saiga feels about twice as heavy as any rifle I've ever shot before, and trigger pull also feels really gritty and weird during the hard pull.

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If trigger pull is an issue, converting the saiga to an AK pistol grip configuration will help a lot. I converted mine a couple of weeks ago and the difference in trigger pull before/after is incredible!

 

Of course, I'd be envious right now of 7" groups at 100 yards, 'cause my old eyes can't even see the stinkin' target at 100 yards anymore with open sights! :ded:

 

Sigh...guess it's time for me to get glasses...

 

Carl

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http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/Pro...20UPGRADE%20KIT

 

Sounds like you prefer a lighter trigger pull (as do I) Check out the above link. :)

 

Thanks for the link 1911. I'll keep that in mind as a possibility for the future if it doesn't affect the guns reliability (i.e. problems with light primer strikes, etc.)

 

Problem is that I'm not going to spend money on a brand new weapon to make it like everyone else's normal weapon. I've heard that RAA can be responsive to problems with their products so I hope in my case they will help make this right. If I remember correctly the factory cert that came in the box said this thing shot close to 6" at 100 meters, so I'm actually pretty close to that in my testing (7" to 8"). Personally, I think I got a Saiga with too heavy of a trigger which explains the problems with the groups and the shots jumping around. I've never shot any rifle or shotgun with anything approaching how bad the trigger is on this Saiga.

 

Well coloradowildman, I think you are correct in your reference to the rifle's 100m certification. I shot with open sights yesterday at a 100yds. I shot with my elbows resting on bench. I got 4.5 to 6 inch groups. I just check my rifles 100m certification. It reads 114mm :031: That about says it all. Pretty up front. It seems your mileage may vary. I still plan on using a bore sighter when my scope gets in. We will see how that works out. Oh, I was shooting 123gr. Barnaul 7.62 x 39 (AKA) Monarch 7.62x39 .

 

You are right about the trigger pull. My nightstand buddy is a S&W 59. It is also my range gun. I'm just use to DA so I don't notice the saiga much.

Edited by Teaser
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http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/Pro...20UPGRADE%20KIT

 

Sounds like you prefer a lighter trigger pull (as do I) Check out the above link. :)

 

Thanks for the link 1911. I'll keep that in mind as a possibility for the future if it doesn't affect the guns reliability (i.e. problems with light primer strikes, etc.)

 

Problem is that I'm not going to spend money on a brand new weapon to make it like everyone else's normal weapon. I've heard that RAA can be responsive to problems with their products so I hope in my case they will help make this right. If I remember correctly the factory cert that came in the box said this thing shot close to 6" at 100 meters, so I'm actually pretty close to that in my testing (7" to 8"). Personally, I think I got a Saiga with too heavy of a trigger which explains the problems with the groups and the shots jumping around. I've never shot any rifle or shotgun with anything approaching how bad the trigger is on this Saiga.

 

Well coloradowildman, I think you are correct in your reference to the rifle's 100m certification. I shot with open sights yesterday at a 100yds. I shot with my elbows resting on bench. I got 4.5 to 6 inch groups. I just check my rifles 100m certification. It reads 114mm :031: That about says it all. Pretty up front. It seems your mileage may vary. I still plan on using a bore sighter when my scope gets in. We will see how that works out. Oh, I was shooting 123gr. Barnaul 7.62 x 39 (AKA) Monarch 7.62x39 .

 

You are right about the trigger pull. My nightstand buddy is a S&W 59. It is also my range gun. I'm just use to DA so I don't notice the saiga much.

 

Hey Teaser, my certification was 122mm, so if you're shooting 4 1/2 to 6 inches, then my 7 to 8 inches sounds dead on. As wonderful as the Saiga is, I consider this unacceptable for a gun that's sold to hunt with, even within 100 yards. I plan on calling Russian American Arms tomorrow and sharing my dissatisfaction with them. A gun like this that is more accurate (like most people have) would make an excellent all around rifle, sort of modern-day 30/30 ranch rifle of sorts (or a more affordable and more reliable Mini-30). I still hope to reach this goal and I'd like it to be the Saiga.

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I would swap the rifle out for another, something is wrong. I've gotten much better groups, 7"-8" is more a "pattern" than group.

 

When I converted my X39 I polished the FCG, it has a much better pull. I also re-crowned the barrel. Just some thoughts.

 

Last 3gun I did I hit 18" poppers off hand, 4"x8" plates kneeling, and 5" plates prone, all at 100yds, no problem. Many were first round hits. (I use a co-witnessed Fastfire)

 

So I gotta beleive there's something wrong, canted sights or ???.

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http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/Pro...20UPGRADE%20KIT

 

Sounds like you prefer a lighter trigger pull (as do I) Check out the above link. :)

 

Well coloradowildman, I think you are correct in your reference to the rifle's 100m certification. I shot with open sights yesterday at a 100yds. I shot with my elbows resting on bench. I got 4.5 to 6 inch groups. I just check my rifles 100m certification. It reads 114mm :031: That about says it all. Pretty up front. It seems your mileage may vary. I still plan on using a bore sighter when my scope gets in. We will see how that works out. Oh, I was shooting 123gr. Barnaul 7.62 x 39 (AKA) Monarch 7.62x39 .

 

 

 

Hey Teaser, my certification was 122mm, so if you're shooting 4 1/2 to 6 inches, then my 7 to 8 inches sounds dead on. As wonderful as the Saiga is, I consider this unacceptable for a gun that's sold to hunt with, even within 100 yards. I plan on calling Russian American Arms tomorrow and sharing my dissatisfaction with them. A gun like this that is more accurate (like most people have) would make an excellent all around rifle, sort of modern-day 30/30 ranch rifle of sorts (or a more affordable and more reliable Mini-30). I still hope to reach this goal and I'd like it to be the Saiga.

 

coloradowildman said:

So all in all I am very impressed with the Saiga as an under 100 yards defense weapon, as it seems very reliable, well built, easy to maintain, and easy to shoot fast for such a powerful round. As a hunting weapon, at least mine in particular, leaves much to be desired. I was hoping to have a good all around brush rifle that serves double duty as a hunting rifle\self defense weapon. If better ammo and a scope cuts my groups in half then it might still serve this purpose, but I was still hoping for better.

 

I hear ya. I chose the Saiga as my all around semi-auto weapon. This one just made the cut. To me, 114mm should be the maximum range (for iron sights) to except at 100yds/m . This is good for what this rifle is. Its 16.3 inch barrel is very good to about 75yds.(iron sights). I have my Winchester94 30/30 open sights. It has five deer to its credit over the years. No shot was over 100yds. The Saiga is the last tool in the weapons tool kit. It is the "GO TO" tool. I only need a few good tools. Good luck with your mission. I'm curious if you will get any satisfaction, or just end up getting rid of the rifle.

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I would swap the rifle out for another, something is wrong. I've gotten much better groups, 7"-8" is more a "pattern" than group.

 

When I converted my X39 I polished the FCG, it has a much better pull. I also re-crowned the barrel. Just some thoughts.

 

Last 3gun I did I hit 18" poppers off hand, 4"x8" plates kneeling, and 5" plates prone, all at 100yds, no problem. Many were first round hits. (I use a co-witnessed Fastfire)

 

So I gotta beleive there's something wrong, canted sights or ???.

 

+1! I would talk to RAAC. I get 2" groups from the bench at 100 yards with no problem with my converted 16" Saiga 7.62X39 using Wolf black box JHP ammo.

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Coloradowildman,

 

I think that your expectations of an unmodified saiga chambered in 7.62X39 as a good hunting rifle are unrealistic. Because of length of pull and trigger mechanics alone, many crappy AKs will outshoot an unmodified Saiga. Add this with the bad ballistics of 7.62x39 and cheap old surplus ammo, and your groups are pretty much what I see most people getting when they first try a x39 Saiga. The .223 and .308 Saiga offer considerably more in the accuracy department if you can adapt to an inconsistent, creepy, gritty factory trigger.

 

My advise; Try different ammo. Try Barnaul, which seems to run pretty accurate in most of my Saigas. Convert the gun, the new trigger alone may halve your groups. A thin front sight post from techsights.com will cover about 2 MOA instead of about 6 MOA with the factory front sight. If you plan on shooting a deer or pig out of a treestand or blind (unlikely in Colorado), than an AK will work. For any other type of game hunting you picked a pretty lousy gun IMO.

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I would swap the rifle out for another, something is wrong. I've gotten much better groups, 7"-8" is more a "pattern" than group.

 

When I converted my X39 I polished the FCG, it has a much better pull. I also re-crowned the barrel. Just some thoughts.

 

Last 3gun I did I hit 18" poppers off hand, 4"x8" plates kneeling, and 5" plates prone, all at 100yds, no problem. Many were first round hits. (I use a co-witnessed Fastfire)

 

So I gotta beleive there's something wrong, canted sights or ???.

 

+1! I would talk to RAAC. I get 2" groups from the bench at 100 yards with no problem with my converted 16" Saiga 7.62X39 using Wolf black box JHP ammo.

 

Thanks for the input. I just got off the phone with RAAC. Nice guy. anyway, I was told that the 100yd/m cert. at the factory or where ever, is a general check of iron sights. Can't say who or how many people do the testing, or if any tweaking is done during testing. Generally speaking, Most Saiga 7.62X39 rifles shoot better than testing cert. shows in RAAC opinion. Bottom line, If you are not happy with the performance of the weapon send it back for testing. And if the problem can't be address, a new weapon will be sent out to replace it. Can't beat that. Works for me. I will make my decision after I sight the scope in. It was agreed that a weapon billed as a hunting rifle needs to shoot at least 2.5 to 3 inch groups at 100yd/m and the Saiga rifle should be capable of that.

 

I think for me, this comes down to understanding how to sight in a AK47. Each weapon is different and when all else fails, READ :smoke: .

This is my first AK type weapon so its all new to me. Its been fun so far. I will look for a better(thinner) front sight to start with. If it comes down to trigger pull, that will be address too.

Edited by Teaser
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Coloradowildman,

 

I think that your expectations of an unmodified saiga chambered in 7.62X39 as a good hunting rifle are unrealistic. Because of length of pull and trigger mechanics alone, many crappy AKs will outshoot an unmodified Saiga. Add this with the bad ballistics of 7.62x39 and cheap old surplus ammo, and your groups are pretty much what I see most people getting when they first try a x39 Saiga. The .223 and .308 Saiga offer considerably more in the accuracy department if you can adapt to an inconsistent, creepy, gritty factory trigger.

 

My advise; Try different ammo. Try Barnaul, which seems to run pretty accurate in most of my Saigas. Convert the gun, the new trigger alone may halve your groups. A thin front sight post from techsights.com will cover about 2 MOA instead of about 6 MOA with the factory front sight. If you plan on shooting a deer or pig out of a treestand or blind (unlikely in Colorado), than an AK will work. For any other type of game hunting you picked a pretty lousy gun IMO.

 

desert dog, thanks for the info. Maybe I've misunderstood, but from what I've read here most people get 2" to 5" inch groups at 100 yards with the Saiga with open sights. If this is true then it should be plenty accurate for larger game within 150 yards, especially using a scope. Is there a another set of Saiga owners out there getting bad accuracy like mine?

 

Regarding hunting with a gun of this type, I wanted to get an all around rugged self-defense rifle that could pull double duty as a brush\ranch rifle and be able to take medium-sized game within 100-150 yards. I know the Saiga is easily capable of this, especially loaded with 150 grain Corbons (150 grains at 2,300fps). I'm on a really tight budget right now as many of us our due to the economy, so I can really only afford one decent rifle to be a jack of all trades so to speak. I don't to want to convert the trigger group because I'm not a gunsmith, plus I just can't afford it right now. I want to carry the rifle as it is in the brush (except with a 5 round mag for legal hunting), but if God-forbid the SHTF, I could throw a US made folding stock and US made 30 rd mags and it would be a good defensive weapon.

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I would swap the rifle out for another, something is wrong. I've gotten much better groups, 7"-8" is more a "pattern" than group.

 

When I converted my X39 I polished the FCG, it has a much better pull. I also re-crowned the barrel. Just some thoughts.

 

Last 3gun I did I hit 18" poppers off hand, 4"x8" plates kneeling, and 5" plates prone, all at 100yds, no problem. Many were first round hits. (I use a co-witnessed Fastfire)

 

So I gotta beleive there's something wrong, canted sights or ???.

 

+1! I would talk to RAAC. I get 2" groups from the bench at 100 yards with no problem with my converted 16" Saiga 7.62X39 using Wolf black box JHP ammo.

 

Thanks for the input. I just got off the phone with RAAC. Nice guy. anyway, I was told that the 100yd/m cert. at the factory or where ever, is a general check of iron sights. Can't say who or how many people do the testing, or if any tweaking is done during testing. Generally speaking, Most Saiga 7.62X39 rifles shoot better than testing cert. shows in RAAC opinion. Bottom line, If you are not happy with the performance of the weapon send it back for testing. And if the problem can't be address, a new weapon will be sent out to replace it. Can't beat that. Works for me. I will make my decision after I sight the scope in. It was agreed that a weapon billed as a hunting rifle needs to shoot at least 2.5 to 3 inch groups at 100yd/m and the Saiga rifle should be capable of that.

 

I think for me, this comes down to understanding how to sight in a AK47. Each weapon is different and when all else fails, READ :smoke: .

This is my first AK type weapon so its all new to me. Its been fun so far. I will look for a better(thinner) front sight to start with. If it comes down to trigger pull, that will be address too.

 

I just off the phone with Clyde at Russian American Arms and he was really helpful in wanting to resolve my problem. Basically, he advised me to try some different ammo and if things didn't get much better RAA would replace my Saiga free of charge, including shipping both ways. I am very impressed with their customer service so I feel good that I made the decision to buy a new Saiga. I'm going to run some US made brass ammo through my Saiga before sending it back. I'll let everyone know how that turns out.

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Coloradowildman,

 

People who are getting good groups, myself included, are shooting converted rifles (better triggers and LOP) with better ammo than the Norinco Chinese surplus. Convert it with a G2 trigger group and buy some Barnaul ammo and Ill bet it will be your favorite gun. Than skinny front post makes a difference too!

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Coloradowildman,

 

People who are getting good groups, myself included, are shooting converted rifles (better triggers and LOP) with better ammo than the Norinco Chinese surplus. Convert it with a G2 trigger group and buy some Barnaul ammo and Ill bet it will be your favorite gun. Than skinny front post makes a difference too!

 

that and it's an ak. 7" groups at 100 yards will still kill a man if you hit him in the chest.

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Coloradowildman,

 

People who are getting good groups, myself included, are shooting converted rifles (better triggers and LOP) with better ammo than the Norinco Chinese surplus. Convert it with a G2 trigger group and buy some Barnaul ammo and Ill bet it will be your favorite gun. Than skinny front post makes a difference too!

 

Can the trigger be converted and moved forward without having to install a pistol grip? I have a feeling not. I want to use this with a 5 round mag as a fairly normal appearing rifle as I will not walk around the woods looking like a mall ninja while hunting. I like to socialize with other hunters and backpackers (part of what makes a great outdoor experience for me) and if I come up to them carrying what looks like an AK-47 it's not going to be the greatest social event. If the SHTF, then I'll put the folding stock and 30 rds mags on it. Until then (hopefully never) I like the more normal appearance of the Saiga, as it's like a Russian Mini-30 ranch rifle.

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