bronxnative 2 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 I'M LOOKING TO IMPROVE THE RELIABILITY OF MY S12 . I WAS WONDERING IF ANYONE HAS HAD ANY EXPIRIENCE WITH THIS PRODUCT ANY PROS OR CONS . THANX FOR ANY INFO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
blackplag 0 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 I have one from his first run, not sure if he made any changes since. Settings of 0-1-2-3. Originally my gun was not 100% on target loads when on setting 1 (nor did I expect it to be as that isn't the intention). I believe it did fine on setting 2, but didn't shoot much variety of target loads before replacing it. Irregardless, I did want to go between different loads without needing to tool adjust. So I ultimately purchased Gunfixr's item because I really liked the idea of finger adjustability. However, I also believe it helped significantly with operation as I use setting 2 to cycle all 3 Wal-Mart target loads (Winchester, Federal, Remington). These all feed without a hiccup. I use setting one for anything heavier. I've never tried setting 0, though believe it was initially intended to turn the gun into a single shot but believe that it was variable gun to gun as to whether it worked. I am not sure when I would use setting 3, as I have yet to do so. Installation required no mods to the gun, I just removed the old and dropped in the new. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 nothing IMPORTANT to add here... but... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 The only changes made to the plug as I originally made it were to add positions on either side of 1, to allow a finer adjustment, and to add tool notches to the front end. The reason for the tool notches was that some users had problems getting the plug out when the gun was really dirty, and the notches are to aid with this problem. So it actually has 5 positions now, a high and low #1, 2, and 3, as well as 0. Some guns will barely function on 0 with heavy 3" loads, some will not. This is due to differences in the tolerances of the guns themselves. In testing with the drum, Mike found that just to either side of 1 worked with the drum better than directly on 1. This change doesn't hurt the original performance at all, it may accentuate it slightly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
David Mark 2,452 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 The only changes made to the plug as I originally made it were to add positions on either side of 1, to allow a finer adjustment, and to add tool notches to the front end. The reason for the tool notches was that some users had problems getting the plug out when the gun was really dirty, and the notches are to aid with this problem. So it actually has 5 positions now, a high and low #1, 2, and 3, as well as 0. Some guns will barely function on 0 with heavy 3" loads, some will not. This is due to differences in the tolerances of the guns themselves. In testing with the drum, Mike found that just to either side of 1 worked with the drum better than directly on 1. This change doesn't hurt the original performance at all, it may accentuate it slightly. Hi Gunfixr I am interested in getting you plug. Does the small button on the gas tube remain depressed with your part or does it function like the factory plug and snap up in place at each setting? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 The only changes made to the plug as I originally made it were to add positions on either side of 1, to allow a finer adjustment, and to add tool notches to the front end. The reason for the tool notches was that some users had problems getting the plug out when the gun was really dirty, and the notches are to aid with this problem. So it actually has 5 positions now, a high and low #1, 2, and 3, as well as 0. Some guns will barely function on 0 with heavy 3" loads, some will not. This is due to differences in the tolerances of the guns themselves. In testing with the drum, Mike found that just to either side of 1 worked with the drum better than directly on 1. This change doesn't hurt the original performance at all, it may accentuate it slightly. Some users huh? /cough Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'M LOOKING TO IMPROVE THE RELIABILITY OF MY S12 . I WAS WONDERING IF ANYONE HAS HAD ANY EXPIRIENCE WITH THIS PRODUCT ANY PROS OR CONS . THANX FOR ANY INFO I believe I was the first one to design a multi-position adjuster. It was never for reliabilty.... It was just to be able to adjust it like an FAL, so you could soften recoil and battering to the gun. Fixer changed it up a bit and made it look better, but it accomplishes the same thing...adjustability. imho, it never had anything to do with reliablity. Mine had a knob, so you could adjust it without tools, but I soon discovered that once it got dirty....good luck turning it by hand Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bronxnative 2 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 thanks guys i really appreciate all the info. i'll be ordering mine pretty soon!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm not sure what you mean, Saiganoobie, But I'm sorry if I've upset you. I don't remember the details, it's been crazy for awhile now. I just remember the idea being suggested. MDave, they're available from MDArms now. CS Metal Werks, I've never seen your adjuster, so whether you came out with it first or not, I don't know. You apparently didn't market it, and that was your choice, for whatever reason. But for me, it was about reliability, as well as the hand adjustable part. I made one for myself, and it went from there. It was about the problem that most guns had a hard time with the cheap low brass shells that we like to shoot at the range to save money. Just installing the plug without any other alterations to the gun made quite a difference. Also, since I don't know anything about your adjuster, I do know that on mine I changed some sizes to decrease the amount of debris that collected around the adjuster, and changed how the gas was directed to the piston. Now that they are being mass produced, I did modify a couple of dimensions just a little to make them easier for production. Also, the new guns now coming in, or at least the ones with all of the gas ports, are getting more gas than the ones before at the time I came up with my adjuster, and many aren't even needing setting 3. Some guns have burrs on the ports where they break through the bore, and these shave wadding into the gas puck area, clogging the adjuster up quicker and making it harder to turn. It's about BOTH reliability and hand adjustment. Yes, the spring loaded lock pin does hold it in position. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 (edited) CS Metal Werks, I've never seen your adjuster, so whether you came out with it first or not, I don't know. You apparently didn't market it, and that was your choice, for whatever reason. But for me, it was about reliability, as well as the hand adjustable part. I made one for myself, and it went from there. It was about the problem that most guns had a hard time with the cheap low brass shells that we like to shoot at the range to save money. Just installing the plug without any other alterations to the gun made quite a difference. Also, since I don't know anything about your adjuster, I do know that on mine I changed some sizes to decrease the amount of debris that collected around the adjuster, and changed how the gas was directed to the piston. Now that they are being mass produced, I did modify a couple of dimensions just a little to make them easier for production. Also, the new guns now coming in, or at least the ones with all of the gas ports, are getting more gas than the ones before at the time I came up with my adjuster, and many aren't even needing setting 3. Some guns have burrs on the ports where they break through the bore, and these shave wadding into the gas puck area, clogging the adjuster up quicker and making it harder to turn.It's about BOTH reliability and hand adjustment. I wasn't taking a dig at your product, I was just answering the question. No, I didn't care about mass producing it. I only made a couple by hand, they were pretty crude. Your's is much nicer looking for sure. I think you did a great job. More power to you. The reason I stated that I had come up with the idea? My understanding of the component was relevant to my opinion in the post. I wasn't trying to poopoo your work. Like I said, I think you did a beautiful job. Mine never had reliability in mind, so that is what I thought of yours when I saw the photo. I had no idea it improved the reliabilty. If it does, then we will need to get a couple from you Anyway, since you never seen mine, here is a shitty pix. http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b63/csmwltd/DSC01697.jpg We will holler at you this week to order a couple. Matt Edited February 12, 2009 by C&S Metall-Werkes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdeitch 32 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I believe I have the LAST hand-made gas knob from gunfixr. (I call it the 'signature edition!') It a beautiful thing! Works great. No issues now with Wally-World brass. (I have also polished and smoothed all the recommended parts and have 3 unobstructed gas ports.) I really like the ability to adjust it by hand without having to take a chopstick to the range. I have not had any issues with it becoming stuck. I have only fired about 100 shells with it and I clean my guns after each trip to the range. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dirtyrice 0 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Glad I read this thread. I'll have my saiga-12 in a week or two and I think this gas plug will be my first purchase. I mainly have fals so I like adjustable gas Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 I'm not sure what you mean, Saiganoobie, But I'm sorry if I've upset you. I don't remember the details, it's been crazy for awhile now. I just remember the idea being suggested. I'm just giving you a hard time . I don't have many good Ideas so I was just pointing out that we discussed the slots/holes for turning in extra dirty conditions. Just the ole self-pat on the back for me, by me, is all. ~SN (Still love the plug, and everyone asks me about it!) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cellsworth 21 Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Gunfixr's gas knob does improve reliability. My S-12 used to have trouble cycling low-brass shells. With the gas knob from Gunfixr, it cycles low-brass shells great. The knob was worth getting at the previous price. At the new price, it's a no-brainer. Get one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacknast76 2 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) When I thought about this whole gas issue, I envisioned a switch , like a light switch. This would avoid the issue of not turning when dirty and a needed tool. I've not the tools nor gunsmithing skill to make it. So one of you leadheads make one!! NOW I demand it, lol jkin I'd buy it if it were available. It'd be nice to have a compendium of sot gun load pressures/velocities. If you take this issue down to a science you could calculate with math which shells would work on which setting and thus make money with your book and/or save everyone time and money trying shells. Combine the shot load pressure/velocities with the recoil spring tension info and you'd know exactly which shells do what. Is it too heavy a load or too light a load to cycle with the S-12. Hence one of my first post about physics. which I'm too lazy to pursue. Edited February 13, 2009 by jacknast76 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I wasn't taking a dig at your product, I was just answering the question.No, I didn't care about mass producing it. I only made a couple by hand, they were pretty crude. Your's is much nicer looking for sure. I think you did a great job. More power to you. The reason I stated that I had come up with the idea? My understanding of the component was relevant to my opinion in the post. I wasn't trying to poopoo your work. Like I said, I think you did a beautiful job. Mine never had reliability in mind, so that is what I thought of yours when I saw the photo. I had no idea it improved the reliabilty. If it does, then we will need to get a couple from you Anyway, since you never seen mine, here is a shitty pix. http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b63/csmwltd/DSC01697.jpg We will holler at you this week to order a couple. Matt Fair enough, I wasn't sure what exactly you were getting at. It also seems that Tony had come up with an idea also, that he hadn't gotten around to trying, and there was someone else who tried one once, that had like 6 settings. Somebody posted a link to the thread when I posted my original thread of what is now considered the prototype. Most ideas that come out are thought of by several people acting independently, often at near the same time. One or two pursue it, and the rest just sit back and say "I wish". Your pic ain't shitty. I thought of doing mine with a lever type end like that at one time, as it was suggested to me as being easier to turn, but I was looking to hollow it out to get rid of weight. It doesn't seem to improve the reliability on the newer guns as much as it does on the older guns. Several customers with newer guns have never even used setting 3, and the older guns need that setting to reliably cycle the cheap low brass stuff. I also completely changed the gas moving end, as well as changing the sizes of the end. It actually channels the gas flow directly to the piston, almost at the center, instead of coming into it at the side and having to flow around. The end diameter has been changed to fit closer, and the center high point replaced with a counterbore. This keeps the gas and fouling more in the center, and very little gets to the threads, or builds up around the outside. Actually, what makes it hard to turn is the wadding that gets lodged between the channel in the plug and the clearance hole in the gas block. Usually, once it's broken loose, it moves freely. As for availability, Mike has them on his site now. I do actually have 2 or 3 of the original hand made ones still. I told JeffD that he got the last one, and at the time he did. But several that were "sold", the money never showed up for. I think that they saw them on MDArms' site for half the price and changed their minds. No biggie, I get paid for those too. However, JeffD does have a one-of-a-kind plug, as I added holes to his that have been added to no other. I still have the original prototype plug. It was in my gun, but I sold that last weekend. I did keep it, though, as I will be getting another S12 in a week or so, and it will go in that one. BTW, where did you get that insert for the HK front sight? I have a customer who is looking for an insert like that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdeitch 32 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 It's a 'signature edition' and a one-of-a-kind... I'm honored! I will cherish it and use it well! Hopefully it will be going with me to Afghanistan in a month. JD I wasn't taking a dig at your product, I was just answering the question.No, I didn't care about mass producing it. I only made a couple by hand, they were pretty crude. Your's is much nicer looking for sure. I think you did a great job. More power to you. The reason I stated that I had come up with the idea? My understanding of the component was relevant to my opinion in the post. I wasn't trying to poopoo your work. Like I said, I think you did a beautiful job. Mine never had reliability in mind, so that is what I thought of yours when I saw the photo. I had no idea it improved the reliabilty. If it does, then we will need to get a couple from you Anyway, since you never seen mine, here is a shitty pix. http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b63/csmwltd/DSC01697.jpg We will holler at you this week to order a couple. Matt Fair enough, I wasn't sure what exactly you were getting at. It also seems that Tony had come up with an idea also, that he hadn't gotten around to trying, and there was someone else who tried one once, that had like 6 settings. Somebody posted a link to the thread when I posted my original thread of what is now considered the prototype. Most ideas that come out are thought of by several people acting independently, often at near the same time. One or two pursue it, and the rest just sit back and say "I wish". Your pic ain't shitty. I thought of doing mine with a lever type end like that at one time, as it was suggested to me as being easier to turn, but I was looking to hollow it out to get rid of weight. It doesn't seem to improve the reliability on the newer guns as much as it does on the older guns. Several customers with newer guns have never even used setting 3, and the older guns need that setting to reliably cycle the cheap low brass stuff. I also completely changed the gas moving end, as well as changing the sizes of the end. It actually channels the gas flow directly to the piston, almost at the center, instead of coming into it at the side and having to flow around. The end diameter has been changed to fit closer, and the center high point replaced with a counterbore. This keeps the gas and fouling more in the center, and very little gets to the threads, or builds up around the outside. Actually, what makes it hard to turn is the wadding that gets lodged between the channel in the plug and the clearance hole in the gas block. Usually, once it's broken loose, it moves freely. As for availability, Mike has them on his site now. I do actually have 2 or 3 of the original hand made ones still. I told JeffD that he got the last one, and at the time he did. But several that were "sold", the money never showed up for. I think that they saw them on MDArms' site for half the price and changed their minds. No biggie, I get paid for those too. However, JeffD does have a one-of-a-kind plug, as I added holes to his that have been added to no other. I still have the original prototype plug. It was in my gun, but I sold that last weekend. I did keep it, though, as I will be getting another S12 in a week or so, and it will go in that one. BTW, where did you get that insert for the HK front sight? I have a customer who is looking for an insert like that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 (edited) Yeah, a couple I did were 5 and a couple were the 6-pos you referenced. I honestly never really cared to produce any of the Saiga stuff I did....I really never had any "I wish" regrets about any of my stuff. If I wanted to have mass-produced any of my designs I would have. I kicked it around a couple times, but in the end I just didn't have any real interest in doing any of it. I like prototyping stuff at work, but try to avoid any production stuff....I got A.D.D so I get bored making the same thing over and over Whenever they want me to work on our production parts at work, I usually hide out in the bathroom until someone else starts to do it....then I re-appear I think that Tony invented pretty much everything for the Saiga's, really made them what they are today....imho, every other Tromix-style conversion is just a copy. Well done copies, but still Tromix copies. I think most of the guys building are doing beautiful & stunning work, but most are walking downs roads that Tony wrote the map for. I don't like biting off other guys brain-storms, so I really tried to do the few guns I did completely different then Tony's or anyone else's; X-stock, A2 rear sight, Fake suppressor (on the only full-length I did at the time), 12" w/ full-length gas tube. A lot of stuff I did on them, was to just make them different than any other ones; heat-sheild, adj gas, FL picatinny. I kinda felt weird about stealing Tony's front HK even but it was too cool not to do HK Triple-ring is indeed baddass! I have been meaning to send one HK-blade to Mike D for the last year, I flaked out cause I have been caring for a dying family member for the last year and been really preoccupied (that's why I never on the board anymore). I need to dig one up for him, if I have two, I'll send you one. ps: you did a very nice job on yours, and the narrower gas channel was indeed am extremely smart, inventive and novel idea. I like it so much, I'm gonna buy a couple. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=15250&hl= http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=Se...p;hl=&st=50 Edited February 13, 2009 by C&S Metall-Werkes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 That's cool. I guess not everybody wishes they went ahead and did something, but I think you got what I mean. I didn't make it to produce either, I just made one for myself. So many people wanted one, and so many of my friends were prodding me to "go for it", that I just decided to try it. I only made somewhere between 40-60 myself. I lost the job at the machine shop, and was going to just let them go. Mike D had gotten a couple, as he thought that it might solve his drum problem, them not quite keeping up with the gun using heavy loads. He was kind of upset at first thinking I was quitting them, and he needed 1000s of them. No shops around where I live have really advanced machinery, so farming them out was going to be too costly. He found a place where he is, and it went from there. This works better anyway, as I don't even have time to make them, really. I'm so busy with conversions, and the walk-in customers, I'm backlogged months now. I got some other ideas also, but I don't even have time to work on them. I like unique also, which has made me create a lot of stuff over the years, so I understand where you're coming from. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dtromblee 0 Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) looks great DT Edited February 14, 2009 by DTrom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 The products look great, the only bad thing about ordering them from MD Arms is the fact that you will not recieve it for a LONG time. Mike is backed up with the drum orders. Even though the gas plug is a completely separate piece he sells from the drums, he still places those orders behind the drum orders. I understand the stance some people take on this, "why should someone complain about waiting for the plugs, we have been waiting for drums forever." I would say, please understand, these people did not order drums, they ordered a gas plug from a web site that states they have them in stock. Mike is not building the gas plugs ahead of the drums, he is not building the gas plugs at all for that matter. No one was made aware, that if they ordered a gas plug from MD Arms, which is in stock, they would not recieve it until all drums were built and shipped to those who have ordered them. No one is saying that any drum orders should wait, for they should not, it is just knowing that the gas plugs are in stock and will not be shipped, does not sit well with some people. If someone questions why their gas plug is not being shipped, they get a response with, I will just cancel your order. To me that is not a very professional attitude to take with customers. That might be a tune to sing today, but there will come a day in the future when that position will be a regretable one. In the nature of good business, I feel individuals ordering only gas plugs from MD Arms, should not be placed at the bottom of a list of individuals who are waiting for a drum that isn't even built yet. I don't think it would hurt to just ship the ordered plugs that are " in stock". I apologize ahead of time to any of you who get upset with this post, upsetting anyone is not my intension. I am only speeking honestly. DT How many different places did you post this? Once in my section, here, and an exact copy to my PM's... Any more out there? You send one to your congress man too? The first one I found in my section didn't bother me that bad. But to here you "speaking honestly" everywhere it is starting to. I never once said I would cancel anyones order for questioning a ship time. But I very well may cancel your order for this type of stuff, in a damn second too. EV-6005, I looked you up! I don't appreciate this a bit. Below is a link to my response to the duplicate of this post in my section! I think you will find it shut down your "speaking honestly" for the most part. Relax and let me work and you'll have your plug. Sorry everyone else. Please don't let this stray the thread any further than it has. Here was my response, carry on... """" http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?s=&...st&p=319683 """" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 I'M LOOKING TO IMPROVE THE RELIABILITY OF MY S12 . I WAS WONDERING IF ANYONE HAS HAD ANY EXPIRIENCE WITH THIS PRODUCT ANY PROS OR CONS . THANX FOR ANY INFO I believe I was the first one to design a multi-position adjuster. It was never for reliabilty.... It was just to be able to adjust it like an FAL, so you could soften recoil and battering to the gun. Fixer changed it up a bit and made it look better, but it accomplishes the same thing...adjustability. imho, it never had anything to do with reliablity. Mine had a knob, so you could adjust it without tools, but I soon discovered that once it got dirty....good luck turning it by hand Not to toot my own horn, but I might have been the first one to suggest it: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...ost&p=49394 That's May of 2005 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted February 14, 2009 Report Share Posted February 14, 2009 (edited) Do you think it is possible to machine 1 or 2 more slots of an intermediate size into the gas plug to give you 4 gas settings instead of 2? DING DING DING!!!!! WE HAVE A LEGITAMATE WINNER! Hat's off brother, You are indeed the guy who invented the adjustable gas regulator. NICE JOB! You deserve to do all the Tooting you like Edited February 14, 2009 by C&S Metall-Werkes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Ok, Pedal2Alloy originated the idea first. Of course, I didn't come here until late 2007, so I never saw that thread. Never saw C&S Metalwerkes thread either until someone linked it after I posted mine. Anyway, here it is, available now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RUDY850 0 Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Can someone tell me how far out the plug sticks out? I have one on order. Reason I'm asking is, I'm thinking of getting a AlumaLiteUSA barrel shroud made and don't know if it would interfere with it or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 Ok, Pedal2Alloy originated the idea first. Of course, I didn't come here until late 2007, so I never saw that thread. Never saw C&S Metalwerkes thread either until someone linked it after I posted mine. Anyway, here it is, available now. Well thanks, but now I feel bad for tooting. See, ideas are cheap, and all of mine equal a grand total of nothing. So credit really should go to the guys who actually made one and especially Gunifxr, who actually marketed it for all to benefit from. Nicely done! Stay tuned for my next idea...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csmw 98 Posted February 15, 2009 Report Share Posted February 15, 2009 (edited) Ain't no product til someone thinks it up. You obviously thought it up. Mfg'ing is the easy part, thinking it up is what seperates the chaf. I thought I came up with it, but your post dates back 2 years before I did one. I think you can safely say you invented the adjustable plug. TooT! Edited February 15, 2009 by C&S Metall-Werkes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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